Who then can be saved?

[fhansen]

God only gives grace to His elect, but He works on our heart before we can believe the gospel.

This part, about God working on our hearts first is true and consistent with the way the Church has understood from the beginning. But it's also understood that this grace is available to all, that some will take it and run with it, others will receive it for a while and then fall back away, while others will refuse the gift altogether: differing grades of soil. Those who hear and understand the word, put it into practice and continue to do so throughout their lives, producing good fruit in the process, are His. As far as our opinions on the matter are concerned, there will be those who didn’t know they were among the elect who’ll find out the end that they are, and others who thought they were, who were not.

 

[A New Dawn]

Self-sanctification, yes. But God's sanctification of us is one-time, not ongoing.

We are not sanctified when we are justified. We are still just as dirty as we were prior to regeneration. The only thing that happens during justification is that Christ (who already paid for our sins) stands between us and the Father absorbing the wrath of His anger, which then absolves us from having to pay for our sins, ourselves.

And there is no such thing as self-sanctification. It is the Holy Spirit’s work in us that makes it possible for us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[fhansen]

I don't mean to sound like a wise guy, but you have got this verse completely wrong as well. If we consider the context and to whom Peters letter was address to, we quickly come to the realization that he is writing to believers (the elect of God).

His letter is encouraging them to be patient, it's a reminder that God is patiently waiting until the last elect person comes to faith, before He brings this world to an end.

The text states that God is not willing that any of (His elect) should perish. If He wanted to save the whole of mankind, He would have but He obviously didn't choose to and we have no business asking "why not". But the question we should be asking is, why didn't He chose to cast all of mankind into hell, because that's what we all deserve.

I don't mean to sound like a wise guy either, but your's is self-serving speculation here, not realization. There's no reason for interpreting the verse other than how it reads. The question we should be asking is, why would a good God create anyone to be tormented eternally, who have no choice but to sin? It's like tormenting a dog eternally for biting, for doing what dog's do.

The question we should be asking is, why does God need to reveal anything, to inform to instruct, to encourage, unless choice is involved? If He’s just going to end up doing it all for us anyway now, why not just prevent Adam from sinning to begin with, or stock heaven with whomever He wants and stock hell with the rest, at the beginning? Why put humanity through all the evil, sin, victimization, the suffering that this world entails if it all has no ultimate purpose, unless choice is involved in our coming to know and shun and hate the evil, the sin, the victimization and choose the good instead even as grace is an essential component of that choice? There’s a reason we’re here, and it’s not just so God can say, “Hey, I’ve chosen you and you and you to be saved and you and you and you for damnation. His judgment will come later; for now we’re working out…our choices, with Him who works in us.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

We are not sanctified when we are justified. We are still just as dirty as we were prior to regeneration. The only thing that happens during justification is that Christ (who already paid for our sins) stands between us and the Father absorbing the wrath of His anger, which then absolves us from having to pay for our sins, ourselves.

And there is no such thing as self-sanctification. It is the Holy Spirit’s work in us that makes it possible for us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

I agree that justification and sanctification are distinct events; justification occurs at the moment of salvation, whereas sanctification is an ongoing process throughout one's lifetime.

I have a different perspective regarding the idea that we remain “dirty” after regeneration. If such were the case, it would not reflect the concept of being born again or becoming a new creation. I would say after someone being born-again, they continue to possess human nature, and while living in this world, there will always be a conflict between human nature and spiritual nature aspects.

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree that justification and sanctification are distinct events; justification occurs at the moment of salvation, whereas sanctification is an ongoing process throughout one's lifetime.

I have a different perspective regarding the idea that we remain “dirty” after regeneration. If such were the case, it would not reflect the concept of being born again or becoming a new creation. I would say after someone being born-again, they continue to possess human nature, and while living in this world, there will always be a conflict between human nature and spiritual nature aspects.

I say we are dirty because justification is the “legal process” part of our salvation. Our hearts are changed, yes, so we can begin the process of sanctification in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, but no matter how much we conform, we will never be clean because we, of ourselves, can do nothing good enough to please God. Until we are no longer in the presence of sin (glorification), we will always be tempted by something and always succumb, and always needing to repent and grow.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

We are not sanctified when we are justified.

"we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)

We are still just as dirty as we were prior to regeneration.

"But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Co 6:11)

The only thing that happens during justification is that Christ (who already paid for our sins) stands between us and the Father absorbing the wrath of His anger, which then absolves us from having to pay for our sins, ourselves.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Co 5:17)

And there is no such thing as self-sanctification. It is the Holy Spirit’s work in us that makes it possible for us to be conformed to the image of Christ.

OT
Josh 3:5 And Joshua said to the people, “Sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will do wonders among you.”
Josh 7:13 Get up, sanctify the people, and say, ‘Sanctify yourselves for tomorrow, because thus says the Lord God of Israel: “There is an accursed thing in your midst, O Israel; you cannot stand before your enemies until you take away the accursed thing from among you.”
1 Sam 16:5 And he said, “Peaceably; I have come to sacrifice to the Lord. Sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice.” Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons, and invited them to the sacrifice.
1 Chron 15:12 He said to them, “You are the heads of the fathers’ houses of the Levites; sanctify yourselves, you and your brethren, that you may bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel to the place I have prepared for it.
2 Chron 29:5 and said to them: “Hear me, Levites! Now sanctify yourselves, sanctify the house of the Lord God of your fathers, and carry out the rubbish from the holy place.

NT
2 Cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Eph 4:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
2 Tim 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

 

[Dan1988]

Wow. I had no idea this is what you meant when you said you judged people.

I only judge professing Christians, as that's what Christians are supposed to do. I have nothing to do with unbelievers, so I never judge them at all. Jesus said the unbelievers are condemned already, so there's no point in me judging them. But believers are supposed to judge each other, by their fruits.

 

[Dan1988]

This part, about God working on our hearts first is true and consistent with the way the Church has understood from the beginning. But it's also understood that this grace is available to all, that some will take it and run with it, others will receive it for a while and then fall back away, while others will refuse the gift altogether: differing grades of soil. Those who hear and understand the word, put it into practice and continue to do so throughout their lives, producing good fruit in the process, are His. As far as our opinions on the matter are concerned, there will be those who didn’t know they were among the elect who’ll find out the end that they are, and others who thought they were, who were not.

The Bible does confirm that Gods sends the rain (and many other good things) to bless believers and unbelievers alike. I think that's called common grace, but only Gods elect receive the gift of saving faith. Those who were not chosen for salvation, before the world was created will never receive saving faith so they will never be saved.

The parable of the soils, confirms that only Gods elect are the good soil. None of the other soils bare any fruit, so they are as good as condemned from the start.
Each of those unbelievers (soils) respond differently to the gospel message, but they all have the same end.
The parable describes those who attempt to receive the blessings that come with conversion, by their good works and their will. But they are doomed to fall away, because they are relying on their own ability, wisdom and strength. They merely add Jesus to their lifestyle and pay Him some lip service and offer the same kind of fruit which Cain offered God.

You suggest that those who hear and understand the word, put it into practice and remain faithful throughout their lives are the good soil. But may I remind you that Gods Word confirms that no such people exist, so if God confirms that they don't exist why do you believe they do.

Romans 3:11-12
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

If you believe that mankind fell with Adam, and we are born with a fallen carnal nature, then how is a carnal man supposed to respond to spiritual things, while they are foolishness to him. The Bible confirms that we are born dead in sin, so unless God regenerates us, we rema8in dead in sin forever.

 

[Dan1988]

I don't mean to sound like a wise guy either, but your's is self-serving speculation here, not realization. There's no reason for interpreting the verse other than how it reads. The question we should be asking is, why would a good God create anyone to be tormented eternally, who have no choice but to sin? It's like tormenting a dog eternally for biting, for doing what dog's do.

The question we should be asking is, why does God need to reveal anything, to inform to instruct, to encourage, unless choice is involved? If He’s just going to end up doing it all for us anyway now, why not just prevent Adam from sinning to begin with, or stock heaven with whomever He wants and stock hell with the rest, at the beginning? Why put humanity through all the evil, sin, victimization, the suffering that this world entails if it all has no ultimate purpose, unless choice is involved in our coming to know and shun and hate the evil, the sin, the victimization and choose the good instead even as grace is an essential component of that choice? There’s a reason we’re here, and it’s not just so God can say, “Hey, I’ve chosen you and you and you to be saved and you and you and you for damnation. His judgment will come later; for now we’re working out…our choices, with Him who works in us.

God never created anyone for the purpose of tormenting them in hell eternally. Nobody has ever suggested any such thing, so I can only assume that you're presuming that those of us who believe what God has said about election to salvation and predestination to salvation, also believe that God creates people to torture them. I can assure you we don't believe any such thing.

You conveniently side stepped the fact that those who are cast into hell, are there because they deserve it. They lived a life, where all of their thoughts and actions were evil continually, just as those in the pre flood world did. God destroyed them all, but He did save 8 people.
We're talking about the same God here today, He still hates sin so much that He still punishes sinners with eternal torment in hell.

I asked you, why God doesn't just cast everyone into hell because that's what we all deserve, but you gave me no answer, instead you asked why a "good God would create peo0ple to be tormented in hell". My answer is, He doesn't do any such thing, but He does punish sinners with eternal torment in hell. If He didn't punish sinners in hell, then He wouldn't be good, and He would be evil instead.

If a Judge, just winked at a mass murderer, without punishing him, then that Judge would be evil. I'm sure you're OK with the judge (who is a sinner) punishing another sinner, but you're not OK when a perfectly Holy and Righteous God does it.

The fact that you're asking such a question, reveals that you have a low view of who God is. It's actually a sin to ask such a question, because the Bible has already answered it many times over., Before we look at any verses, lets consider who we are and who God is. His is infinitely wise, His ways are infinitely higher than ours, His ways are past finding out, He is a mystery, we know very little about Him. We only know what He has revealed in the Bible, and He never told anyone why He does what he does, because it's none of our business to ask.

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding”.

This verse is part of God's powerful speech to Job, as recorded in the book of Job, chapter 38, where the Lord uses questions about the creation and maintenance of the world to demonstrate His omnipotence and Job's limited understanding.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".
However, the Hebrew word translated as "evil" in this context can also mean "calamity," "disaster," or "bad times", rather than moral evil. The verse emphasizes God's supreme power and sovereignty over all aspects of creation, including both positive and negative events, to demonstrate his authority, not to suggest God is the author of sin.

Romans 9:22 "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?".
This verse, along with the context of Romans 9:21-23, discusses God's sovereignty in creating both vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, which are prepared for their respective ends.

Romans 9:17"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”".
This verse explains that God raised up Pharaoh to demonstrate His power and to make His name known throughout the world by bringing judgment upon Egypt.

Romans 9:20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?'". This verse is part of a larger passage in which Paul uses the analogy of a potter and clay to explain God's sovereign right as the Creator to determine the purpose and destiny of His creation.

There is no justification for asking "why has God done this". Ours is not to question, but to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength'". trust and obey Him and let God do whatever He wants to do with his creation.
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