Calvinism, explained.

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ToBeLoved

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This is how I would explain that.
The invitation is to all, the gospel has gone out to the entire world, but not all have willing ears to hear.
Those that do respond have been taught by God to come to Christ., they are the elect.
ONLY those who are 'of God' then really do hear God's words.
Christ is actually speaking to His elect whom God knew beforehand.
Well the text in red is a clear fabrication on your part, because we cannot serve two masters. Only after someone is saved are they in Christ.

So someone cannot be 'in Christ' before they come to Christ in faith. Before they come to Christ, they are serving the 'other' master. No one is 'of God' before they are saved. Nope

The text in blue and red I'd like to see your proof verses for. And not the ones you listed because they are not directly related to what you say here.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Who else would feel that they are the elect but the elect who have been saved and therefore have the Holy Spirit to confirm their current status to them? What you say is not well thought out.

I'm not sure what you mean by the elect not having free will. You've been corrected on that many times it seems. So have many others here and they keep making the same mistake.

Or is it a mistake? Quite likely in many cases it is a purposeful misrepresentation of what Reformed doctrine teaches. Nothing new in that of course as we have observed numerous times here in the forum.

According to the scriptures the only ones who do have completely free will are the elect believers in their new nature.

Every believer is, as you say, "definitely" taught of God after they believe through the scriptures - among other ways.

Yes - it does tickle the ears. It is a very comforting doctrine to know that we are kept by God just as we were elected by God before the foundation of the world.

The reason the doctrine has been given to the church is for comfort in times of trial.
No, if they say that God is irresistable then they had no free will. And when they 'got' this election, per se, they did not have the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 5, 6 and 7 again. There is an order.

So when they irresistably 'got God' they didn't have the Holy Spirit, nor were they justified, crucified with Christ, forgiven their sins, nor dead to sin.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes, If Christ makes you free, you will truly be free.
He said that to the unbelieving jews who were slaves of sin and had Satan as their father.
If Christ does not make you free, then you are not free, you are bound to your evil sin nature in eternal death. You can not make yourself free of that, can the leopard change it's spots? And those who are dead, do not know the Truth, indeed they can not know, since it is spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man cannot know God and Christ, to be a natural man is enmity with God. Christian's though are supernatural men, otherwise they are not His.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

And christian's are also freed from death due to their sin, since your made right with God through Christ's eternal work for you.

Interesting, but think, when your talking to unsaved people, you are talking to those who are dead.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

And this
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead truly know nothing about life in the Spirit, but they do make up a lot of stories.
So then why does Jesus say that He has two different sheep in the sheep fold, which His blood brings together? Now are you saying that God has forsaken the Jews who haven't come to Christ who are the 12 Tribes of Israel?

Is God breaking His covenant with them? How is that going to work?

Who are the original sheep and who are the added sheep fold?

John 10:16
And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

So what you are saying is that the Father and Jesus are not calling the Jewish peoples
 
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ToBeLoved

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1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man cannot know God and Christ, to be a natural man is enmity with God. Christian's though are supernatural men, otherwise they are not His.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

And christian's are also freed from death due to their sin, since your made right with God through Christ's eternal work for you.

Interesting, but think, when your talking to unsaved people, you are talking to those who are dead.

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

And this
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead truly know nothing about life in the Spirit, but they do make up a lot of stories.
None of these support your premise.

How do you explain that someone has to hear His Word. Faith comes through hearing.

Your whole theory is not cohesive with the Bible
 
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ToBeLoved

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You sound a little... defensive.
No. I just think that it is such an incomplete theory I don't see how you reconcile it with the rest of God's Word. No one can answer the hard questions. That's what is so frustrating.

Why don't you give it a whirl?
 
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Rick Otto

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No. I just think that it is such an incomplete theory I don't see how you reconcile it with the rest of God's Word. No one can answer the hard questions. That's what is so frustrating.

Why don't you give it a whirl?
I have to polish my rosary.
;)
 
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5 Point Calvinism is correct. These doctrines build upon one another. The doctrine of total depravity establishes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of unregenerate man and leaves one with the question “Who can be saved?” The doctrine of unconditional election then answers the question by declaring God’s sovereign choice in choosing to save people despite their depravity and based solely on God’s sovereign choice to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Next, the doctrine of limited atonement explains how God can be perfectly just and yet redeem those sinful people and reconcile them to Himself. The only solution to the depravity of man was for God to provide a Redeemer who would act as their substitute and suffer the wrath of God for their sins. He did this in the death of Christ, who, having been crucified, completely and totally “canceled out the certificate of debt…having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

The arguments against the Calvinist theology point out that it seems like humanity does not have free will or have a choice in salvation. This is incorrect. Man is saved by placing his faith in Christ. Then how are people predestined?

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God is infinite, beyond our comprehension. We both have free will and place our faith in Christ and were chosen, predestined to salvation before we were born, before creation. The non-believers and evil make their decision through free will but God already knew and predestined them to their fate. God is in control of everything. This may seem like a contradiction, but it is not. Just like the Trinity which is one and three, salvation is both by free will and by predestination. Our finite brains in our current sinful state cannot comprehend the Lord.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Mankind cannot find God on his own. We can only place our faith in God because he loved us first. God is truly infinite, and Calvinism is simply further elaborating on what was already written in the Bible, elaborating on God's true nature. Freewill and predestination are like two parallel lines that God foreordained to run the same path, if you reject God then it is his will that judgement be delivered accordingly. You are free to choose. Don’t think that you are a helpless victim of God’s predestination or predetermining you to go to hell or to heaven. God never sends anyone to hell. People choose to send themselves there by rejecting Christ. Christ's sacrifice had the power to save everyone, but not everyone accepts it. I can understand while it is controversial, our sin state holds us back. But we will be free one day.
 
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ToBeLoved

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5 Point Calvinism is correct. These doctrines build upon one another. The doctrine of total depravity establishes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of unregenerate man and leaves one with the question “Who can be saved?” The doctrine of unconditional election then answers the question by declaring God’s sovereign choice in choosing to save people despite their depravity and based solely on God’s sovereign choice to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Next, the doctrine of limited atonement explains how God can be perfectly just and yet redeem those sinful people and reconcile them to Himself. The only solution to the depravity of man was for God to provide a Redeemer who would act as their substitute and suffer the wrath of God for their sins. He did this in the death of Christ, who, having been crucified, completely and totally “canceled out the certificate of debt…having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

The arguments against the Calvinist theology point out that it seems like humanity does not have free will or have a choice in salvation. This is incorrect. Man is saved by placing his faith in Christ. Then how are people predestined?

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God is infinite, beyond our comprehension. We both have free will and place our faith in Christ and were chosen, predestined to salvation before we were born, before creation. The non-believers and evil make their decision through free will but God already knew and predestined them to their fate. God is in control of everything. This may seem like a contradiction, but it is not. Just like the Trinity which is one and three, salvation is both by free will and by predestination. Our finite brains in our current sinful state cannot comprehend the Lord.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Mankind cannot find God on his own. We can only place our faith in God because he loved us first. God is truly infinite, and Calvinism is simply further elaborating on what was already written in the Bible, elaborating on God's true nature. Freewill and predestination are like two parallel lines that God foreordained to run the same path, if you reject God then it is his will that judgement be delivered accordingly. You are free to choose. Don’t think that you are a helpless victim of God’s predestination or predetermining you to go to hell or to heaven. God never sends anyone to hell. People choose to send themselves there by rejecting Christ. Christ's sacrifice had the power to save everyone, but not everyone accepts it. I can understand while it is controversial, our sin state holds us back. But we will be free one day.
It doesn't sound like you are really a 5 point Calvinist, but I'm glad.
 
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Hoghead1

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5 Point Calvinism is correct. These doctrines build upon one another. The doctrine of total depravity establishes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of unregenerate man and leaves one with the question “Who can be saved?” The doctrine of unconditional election then answers the question by declaring God’s sovereign choice in choosing to save people despite their depravity and based solely on God’s sovereign choice to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Next, the doctrine of limited atonement explains how God can be perfectly just and yet redeem those sinful people and reconcile them to Himself. The only solution to the depravity of man was for God to provide a Redeemer who would act as their substitute and suffer the wrath of God for their sins. He did this in the death of Christ, who, having been crucified, completely and totally “canceled out the certificate of debt…having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

The arguments against the Calvinist theology point out that it seems like humanity does not have free will or have a choice in salvation. This is incorrect. Man is saved by placing his faith in Christ. Then how are people predestined?

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God is infinite, beyond our comprehension. We both have free will and place our faith in Christ and were chosen, predestined to salvation before we were born, before creation. The non-believers and evil make their decision through free will but God already knew and predestined them to their fate. God is in control of everything. This may seem like a contradiction, but it is not. Just like the Trinity which is one and three, salvation is both by free will and by predestination. Our finite brains in our current sinful state cannot comprehend the Lord.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Mankind cannot find God on his own. We can only place our faith in God because he loved us first. God is truly infinite, and Calvinism is simply further elaborating on what was already written in the Bible, elaborating on God's true nature. Freewill and predestination are like two parallel lines that God foreordained to run the same path, if you reject God then it is his will that judgement be delivered accordingly. You are free to choose. Don’t think that you are a helpless victim of God’s predestination or predetermining you to go to hell or to heaven. God never sends anyone to hell. People choose to send themselves there by rejecting Christ. Christ's sacrifice had the power to save everyone, but not everyone accepts it. I can understand while it is controversial, our sin state holds us back. But we will be free one day.

Yes, it is a big, a very big, contradiction. Calvin's claim is that before the foundation of teh world was ever laid, God predetermined who the elect and reprobate will be. There is no changing that decision. If you are predetermine to be reprobate or elect, for that matter, there is nothing you can do about it. You have no choice. In fact, in Calvin, you have no choice about anything, as everything, right down to the smallest detail, was predetermined by God, who does not change. If we have any real degree of freedom, freedom, then God cannot decide for us, as Calvin falsely claims. Also, if you read the "Institutes," you will find he actually ridicules free will. So, too, Luther.
 
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The Hammer of Witches

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Yes, it is a big, a very big, contradiction. Calvin's claim is that before the foundation of teh world was ever laid, God predetermined who the elect and reprobate will be. There is no changing that decision. If you are predetermine to be reprobate or elect, for that matter, there is nothing you can do about it. You have no choice. In fact, in Calvin, you have no choice about anything, as everything, right down to the smallest detail, was predetermined by God, who does not change. If we have any real degree of freedom, freedom, then God cannot decide for us, as Calvin falsely claims. Also, if you read the "Institutes," you will find he actually ridicules free will. So, too, Luther.

It cannot contradict, because God knew how he would create the world, what would happen, and how he would end it and restore creation after the tribulation. God knows all, he knew who would accept him and who would not. We have free will to choose, but God knows, and knew what we would choose. This is not a contradiction because both are true. It may seem like one, but that is because we, in our finite minds, cannot even dream to fully understand God. God is infinite and knows all. Here are a few verses that show is omniscience:

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

If God did not know who would be saved, then he is not omniscient and this contradicts the scripture. But what about free will? Free will must first be defined. If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Not a contradiction, we are just unable to fathom his infinity.
 
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Hoghead1

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It cannot contradict, because God knew how he would create the world, what would happen, and how he would end it and restore creation after the tribulation. God knows all, he knew who would accept him and who would not. We have free will to choose, but God knows, and knew what we would choose. This is not a contradiction because both are true. It may seem like one, but that is because we, in our finite minds, cannot even dream to fully understand God. God is infinite and knows all. Here are a few verses that show is omniscience:

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

If God did not know who would be saved, then he is not omniscient and this contradicts the scripture. But what about free will? Free will must first be defined. If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Not a contradiction, we are just unable to fathom his infinity.
No, that is not what Calvin had in mind. God knew ahead of time what was going to happen, precisely because God decided and predetermined ahead of time what was to happen, right down to the smallest detail. Hence, we are not free to choose salvation or no. We are born either reprobate or elect and can do nothing about this. Also, the biblical passages you are referring to do not all show God knew it all ahead of time. Indeed, may passages suggest otherwise, pointing out God's knowledge of the future is "iffy," as we find in the case of Sodom and also Jer. 18.
 
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tulipbee

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Nevermind the decieving auto-suggestions others give here.
Typical new age positive thinking to decieve is popular here.

You're correct that T.U.L.I.P. is correct.

13412982_728912590544878_7003025936869239281_n.jpg
 
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Hoghead1

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Nevermind the decieving auto-suggestions others give here.
Typical new age positive thinking to decieve is popular here.

You're correct that T.U.L.I.P. is correct.

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Calvin, however, is quite specific that God didn't just foresee the fall, God predetermined the Fall, for the sake of God's glory. Thus, according to the Westminster Confession of Faith, "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and there number is so certain that it cannot be either incrased or diminished. Those of mankind who are predestined unto life, God, before teh foundation of teh world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works...The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to his unsearchable counsel of his own will, ...for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin..."
Calvin writes, "Il compasse tellement toutes choses que rein n'advient sinon ainsi qu'il l'a determine en son conseil... n'est point une chose qui se pourmene et voltage a leur plaisir. mais que Dieu par son conseil secret y gouverne tellement tout, que rein n'advient qu'il n'ait luy mesme determine de son seu et vouloir."
So no, we have no choice, according to Calvin. Everything is predetermined and set in cement by God.
 
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QUOTE="Hoghead1,
So no, we have no choice, according to Calvin. Everything is predetermined and set in cement by God.
I don't believe that to be correct, it doesn't sound right.
The way I understood him is that of course we have and make choices, anybody can see that, it's just that they are predetermined. Cement, robots, all those clumsy analogies are more emotional hot buttons on our ego than they are good analogies.
"Free" is free of meaning itself, without the limitations of context.
 
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