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Calvinism, explained.

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by GillDouglas, Jan 4, 2016.

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  1. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    What the natural mind can not comprehend of the Spirit, it will distort and twist to mean something else.
     
  2. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  3. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I'm not spiritually minded? Maybe you should wait until the judgment before you judge now.

    You brought up the passage about hating your father, mother...etc. I have asked you several times if you hate your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, and children. You seem to have no answer, or an incriminating one if you follow His words.

    Since you are spiritually minded, do you hate your father, mother, brother, sister, wife and children?
     
  4. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I wonder if anyone can make sense of predestination in light of these texts. Since God predestined 'everything', why did He predestine that which he hates?
     
  5. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Since you are not a natural man, and do not twist nor distort scripture, what does it mean to hate your father, mother...etc.?

    Surely you meant it as something else than what you intended it for me.
     
  6. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    That's why I provided the example of Jacob and Esau. It seems to indicate preference there.
     
  7. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Your original statement was that "hate" means preference in Hebrew. I gave you some verses which don't fit your interpretation. Do you have a rebuttal?
     
  8. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    I was talking about when Jesus said we have to hate father and mother. Preference, value, honor above, etc. could be used here. Yes, you gave verses that use the word "hate" in other ways. That's why I said there may be other Hebrew words that we translate into "hate" just as there are multiple Hebrew words we translate into "love". It would take a word study from someone familiar with the language to get all the details about it.

    Anyway, the Jacob and Esau quote I gave was to indicate the "preference" context.
     
  9. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Nowhere can hate means God loved Jacob more and loved Esau less.
    God pursued with hatred, detested, hated Esau. The sense of this is intense.

    Lets see it for what it is, problem is you think God loves all people and hates no one, which is not scriptural.
    Since you can not read hate as hate in english, read it in the greek. It has no other meaning than hatred, which is why the translators must remain true to the text. If say translators voted on what the words say having your input, then it would not be the Word of God, but something devilish.
    Like saying, 'Jacob I loved greatly and Esau I loved less than Jacob, but I loved him too.'
    Maybe we should not make up the scriptures, according to our own liking, dont you think so?
    Lexicon :: Strong's G3404 - miseō
    μισέω
    Transliteration
    miseō
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3404&t=KJV

    1. to hate, pursue with hatred, detest

    2. to be hated, detested
     
  10. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Psalm 11, another 'hate' verse

    4 The Lord is in His holy temple,
    The Lord’s throne is in heaven;
    His eyes behold,
    His eyelids test the sons of men.
    5 The Lord tests the righteous,
    But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

    6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
    Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
    Shall be the portion of their cup.

    7 For the Lord is righteous,
    He loves righteousness;
    His countenance beholds the upright.

    Plainly God hates sin and sinfulness in people.
    Plainly God hates the wicked sinners, they He will destroy.
    Unless you repent, God will destroy you wicked sinners in hell.
    And you can not repent unless God grants to you repentance.
    Christ will not accept you as you are, those who enter into the kingdom, must first be born of God in the Spirit.
    Since the carnal natural mind is DEATH, at war against God, and CANNOT be subject to God's laws, God must make you born again first to enter the kingdom second. We do not in our natural carnal mind please God at all, we must be changed first, regenerated, born again to believe in Christ and enter the kingdom.

    Romans 8
    6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


    For example,
    2 Corinthians 7:10 [Full Chapter]
    For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

    Acts 5:31
    Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 11:18
    When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

    All repentance, the ability to repent comes from God as His gift, without which you will never repent.
    Those that do repent, don't just take up God on His offer of repentance, God has granted them repentance unto life, cleansing their hearts by faith, which is also a gift.

    Romans 12
    3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

    Since without faith it is impossible to please God, then those without faith can never be saved.
     
  11. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Okay sdowney, correlate the above passages you gave with this passage -

    Luke 14:26
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    I will ask again, do you hate, pursue with hatred, and detest your father, mother, brothers, sisters, wife and children? I have no idea why you won't answer. Are you really a man filled with hatred towards others? Did you know murder is predicated upon hatred?

    I will give you this passage also -

    1 John 3:15
    Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    So please not only tell me, but everyone else on this thread, do you hate your brother?
     
  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Lord is righteous and just. The Lord sees the heart and all things and any vengence is His.

    We need to be careful when we think we have the kind of information and righteousness God has.
     
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    The Lord gives 'us' who believe a new heart. We believe since we have the new heart that can know Him, something the world can never know.
    And He disciplines everyone He receives that they will not be condemned along with the world.

    The new heart you must have or you're not His.
    It is what He does for you, and He causes you to walk in His statutes.
    Notice this is all of Him, and not of us. This is the same here in the OT as in the NT today.

    Ezek 36
    26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Hebrews 8, about the new covenant, note how it works, God causes us to be His people.
    The writer uses the OT verses to explain the New Covenant we experience today. v10 - v12 is how it works.
    God supercedes our own thoughts and hearts by an interventional force, putting them into our minds and writing them on our hearts, with the result we are His people and He our God..

    A New Covenant

    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says:“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

    13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So how does that answer my response to why you say 'hate' is justified by a Christian?

    Are you creeping on to another subject?
     
  16. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you changing the subject?

    How does the New Covenant permit you to justly and righteously hate?
     
  17. SeraphimsCherub

    SeraphimsCherub New Member

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    Such an excellent post. This statement really stood out to me:) "Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets."
     
  18. tulipbee

    tulipbee Worker of the Hive

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    every bit of TULIP is founded in the Bible whether you like it or not:
    T: Genesis 6:5, 8:21; Numbers 15:37-39; 1 Kings 8:46; Job 15:14-16; Psalm 14:1-3, 51:5, 94:11, 130:3; Proverbs 4:23, 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20, 8:11; Isaiah 6:5, 53:6, 64:6; Jeremiah 10:14, 13:23, 17:9; Matthew 7:11, 15:19; Mark 10:18; Luke 17:10; John 2:24, 3:36, 6:44, 15:5, 16; Acts 3:16, 16:14; Romans 1:18-2:16, 3:9-20, 23, 5:12, 7:18-20, 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14, 12:3; 2 Corinthians 3:5, 4:3, 11:3; Ephesians 2:1-6, 4:17-19; Colossians 2:13; 1 Timothy 2:25, 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:8; Titus 1:5; James 2:10, 3:2, 8; Revelation 9:20, 16:9.
    U: Deuteronomy 7:6-10, 15, 9:5, 29:4; Psalm 65:4; Isaiah 45:4; Mark 13:20; John 1:13, 6:44, 65, 15:16, 17:2; Acts 2:39, 9:1-18, 11:17, 16:14, 18:27; Romans 8:28-30, 9:10-26, 10:20, 11:5; Ephesians 1:1-11; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Philippians 1:29; 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9, 2:10, 19, 25; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 9:15; James 1:18; Jude 1.
    L: Scriptural Support:
    Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.
    I: Irresistible grace/drawing of God's elect.
    Genesis 20:6, 35:5; Exodus 34:23; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30:6; Judges 14:1-4; 1 Kings 4:29; 1 Chronicles 22:12, 29:18; Ezra 1:1, 5, 6:22, 7:27; Nehemiah 1:11, 2:8, 12; Esther 2:17, 4:14, 6:1-4; Ezekiel 36:25-32; Psalm 33:10, 65:4, 139:16; Proverbs 21:1; Isaiah 44:28; Jeremiah 10:24; Haggai 1:14; Luke 24:16, 31, 45; John 6:37, 45, 10:3, 4, 27; Acts 11:18, 13:48, 16:14, 17:26; 1 Corinthians 3:5, 12:13, 15:10; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Galatians 2:8; Ephesians 2:1-6, 3:7; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:20; James 4:13-15.
    P: Scriptural Support:
    1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24.
     
  19. Hoghead1

    Hoghead1 Well-Known Member

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    That's what the Calvinists always say. However, I and many others strongly disagree on the basis of a number of biblical passages passages you have overlooked.
     
  20. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    I get labeled "Calvinist" only because I agree with his soteriology.
    But I part ways with him on sacramentology and ecclesiology, especially in the area of church discipline.
     
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