WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

DavidPT

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Yep. And who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city desolate?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one(s) who hated the city?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city naked?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city to eat the city's "flesh"?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city burn with fire?


These arguments don't cut it. It doesn't matter if some of them did think these things applied to their day and time. There is such a thing as being wrong about things, regardless.

Using your logic, the following example should mean Daniel fully understood all visions given to him. So why didn't he?

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


What I have underlined I would think that included Daniel as well. So the argument, how would those at the time have understood things, is not an argument one can apply to every single case in the Bible.

And speaking of those in the first century. For example. Some of them understood the thousand years to be future after Christ's 2nd coming. Some of them didn't. How then can one argue, how would they have understood it at the time, if not all of them are even in agreement about some of these things, such as I showed with this example?
 
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Douggg

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Sure it has.


It simply didn't happen as certain futurist eschatologies imagine it will happen.
Provide a chart similar to mine that includes all the elements thereof, referenced by the scriptures on the charts - as having been historically fulfilled, in 70 AD or first century.

upload_2019-12-26_11-39-45.jpeg
 
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Josheb

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Thx, Hank. The appreciation is appreciated. In case you've missed the previously posted recommendations if you have an interest in this topic then I strongly recommend the comapartive apologetics books found in the CounterPoint Series by Zondervan,

"The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views" edited by Robert Clouse
"Four Views on the Book of Revelation" edited by Stanley Gundry and C. Marvin Pate
"Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond" edited by Stanley Gundry and Darrel Bock
"Three Views on the Rapture," edited by Stanley Gundry and Alan Hultberg
"Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary" edited by Steve Gregg

As well as the arguments for the various other eschatologies,

"The Blessed Hope," by George Eldon Ladd (Historic Premillennialism)
"A Case for Historic Premillennialism," by Craig Blomberg
"The Bible and the Future," by Anthony Hoekema (Amillennialism)
"The Case for Amillennialism," by Kim Riddlebarger (Amillennielaism and very, very good exegetically)
"Last Days Madness," by Gary Demar (Postmillennial, informative but acerbic)
"He Shall Have Dominion," by Kenneth Gentry
"Before Jerusalem Fell," also by Kenneth Gentry

There is also the Idealist position but I have yet to read anyone here assert that position and it is usually associated with the liberal theologies (think Albert Schweitzer or the Jesus Seminar) but if you're interested I'll make a recommendation there, too. I can also recommend commentaries on Revelation written by authors from different perspectives, too. A good place to start is HERE.
 
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Josheb

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copy and paste some images that supports your position regarding the garments.
Nope. I gave you scripture. Scripture is authoritative. I gave you the cues by which you could search the scriptures for yourself. You've ignored them. You want to get into a competitive comparison of websites and that's not gonna happen. I give you scripture and you give me extra-biblical sources.

I note all this for the sake of those who are lurking so as to draw attention to what so often happens in conversation with futurists.

The choice is simple: Will you look first to scripture or not?
 
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Josheb

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Provide a chart similar to mine...
Nope. Not gonna happen.

Nope. I gave you scripture. Scripture is authoritative. I gave you the cues by which you could search the scriptures for yourself. You've ignored them. You want to get into a competitive comparison of websites and that's not gonna happen. I give you scripture and you give me extra-biblical sources.

Here in this post to which I now reply you've given the readers an eisegetic interpretation of what scripture is imagined to say, not an objective presentation of what scripture actually states and would have been understood by the first century reader to whom the NT was written.

I note all this for the sake of those who are lurking so as to draw attention to what so often happens in conversation with futurists.

The choice is simple: Will you look first to scripture or not?
 
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Josheb

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Using your logic, the following example should mean Daniel fully understood all visions given to him. So why didn't he?
No, my logic dictates no such thing. All Damiel need to have understood was the command to seeal the prophesies, knowing the time for their fulfillment was not at that time upon him. Nothing more. Nothing less.
And speaking of those in the first century. For example. Some of them understood the thousand years to be future after Christ's 2nd coming. Some of them didn't. How then can one argue, how would they have understood it at the time, if not all of them are even in agreement about some of these things, such as I showed with this example?
Yes, but nothing in the canon of scripture states any such thing. Futurists throughout the history of Christianity have made false prognostications and always failed. Many Christians thought the millennium was a literal thousand years and began with the destruction of Israel or Pentecost or Cavary and they expected Jesus to return by 1080. They were wrong.

The problem we are always going to have no matter what perspective we come from is the problem of the canon being closed. Unless or until God opens up the canon of scripture anew there will be no more inspired authors writing from the inspiration of God to confirm anything. Futurists imagine everyone will just know because it will be so obvious that we'll just know. We just will. It doesn't matter that few understood the OT prophesies about the Messiah when he stood right in front of them doing miracles. It doesn't matter that centuries of false prognostications have failed, the futurist hopes and hopes one of these prognostications is going to be true and everyone will know it when it happens.
 
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Josheb

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These arguments don't cut it. It doesn't matter if some of them did think these things applied to their day and time. There is such a thing as being wrong about things, regardless.
So be it. You've just gone on record stating the first century reader was more liekly to be wrong than the 21st century reader. I'm quite content to let that be your position.


So at this point several exchanges have occurred and you're relapsing back into the previous practice of ignoring what is actually posted and jumping around from subject to subject in neglect so I'm going to move on because I don't do that. Appreciate your time and effort even if it didn't much attend to what scripture actually states or what I posted.
 
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DavidPT

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The problem we are always going to have no matter what perspective we come from is the problem of the canon being closed. Unless or until God opens up the canon of scripture anew there will be no more inspired authors writing from the inspiration of God to confirm anything.

We're on the same page in regards to this. I see it pretty much the same as you.

Futurists imagine everyone will just know because it will be so obvious that we'll just know. We just will. It doesn't matter that few understood the OT prophesies about the Messiah when he stood right in front of them doing miracles. It doesn't matter that centuries of false prognostications have failed, the futurist hopes and hopes one of these prognostications is going to be true and everyone will know it when it happens.

What some of you fail to take into account, there is not just one bodily coming of Christ to this planet, there are two. The first bodily coming started with His birth. The 2nd bodily coming meaning Acts 1:11, for one. Why can there not be any prophecies connected with the 2nd bodily coming in the future? Why can't there be any events that need to be fulfilled in the end of this age, such as the time we are presently living in, assuming Christ returns in our lifetime? Why would all of the prophecies recorded in the Bible related to Christ's coming, only be related to His first coming, and none of it related to His 2nd coming?
 
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Revealing Times

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I did an image search on the levite priesthood garments, and these are some of them. I am not seeing purple and scarlet together as predominant colors. I can see purple in the first image. But it seems blue is the predominant color. What do you think?

OIP.Pw_Acckd6wGz6wx46jqw4gHaJ4


OIP.nqHTlxO5OMzhGFJUEfmtcwHaF6


OIP.XTnZ5FlcqyqI3b2ttFTT-QHaDt


OIP.DuznU-Za00YIhbePC07LVQHaE8


___________________________________________________

compared to....

OIP.im1txTCqRuSWlqbyqgFvegAAAA


OIP.Z4N3SGy6ktms8EHqv2JCigHaFf


OIP.RYAqOE_dKOOjWu-Roqk2egHaJj


...I am thinking, Vatican.
You see what you want to see.....study the Scarlet and Purple colors in depth instead of jumping to a wrong conclusion, that they are about the RCC, which can't fit the Harlot or Babylon, no matter how many times you repeat it brother, you have run with Armstrong's bad theory.

As per the Purple and Scarlet Breastplate, it has nothing to do with the overall Garments per se.

Exodus 28:15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of make it.

breastplate.jpg

Purple and Scarlet Judgment Breastplate.

Notice the Breastplates of the Demon locusts of the First Woe are made of Iron.

Rev. 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

Whereas the Breastplates of the 200 Million [Army of Angelic beings] are described as being just like the Breastplates that the High Priests of Israel wore !!

Rev. 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire {FLAMES COLOR ARE deep orange/purple/scarlet colors}, and of jacinth {Blue}, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

So I think these 200 million are Angelic Beings with Judgment in their hands.

Overall, the point is, the breastplate of Judgment IS INDEED Purple and Scarlet, just like the Bible describes it. You just have to get the proper picture. Scarlet and Purple tells us that God is referring to Pious Orders or Religious Orders and Royalty. Not the RCC per se.
 
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Douggg

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Nope. I gave you scripture. Scripture is authoritative. I gave you the cues by which you could search the scriptures for yourself. You've ignored them. You want to get into a competitive comparison of websites and that's not gonna happen. I give you scripture and you give me extra-biblical sources.

I note all this for the sake of those who are lurking so as to draw attention to what so often happens in conversation with futurists.

There are plenty of images on the internet of the priests' garments.

But I haven's seen any that supports your view. Anyone can do a google or bing image search of "temple priests garments".

temple priest garments - Bing images
 
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Douggg

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Nope. Not gonna happen.
What do you mean? It only took about 50 years of my life to know what to put on that chart and in the proper place.
 
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Douggg

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Overall, the point is, the breastplate of Judgment IS INDEED Purple and Scarlet, just like the Bible describes it. You just have to get the proper picture. Scarlet and Purple tells us that God is referring to Pious Orders or Religious Orders and Royalty. Not the RCC per se.

Really, RT? Pious Orders or Religious Orders and Royalty? As "all false religion" that you claim to be the harlot, harlot ? What about Islam? False religion or not? image search - Islam mullahs

OIP.AlwwKAIs4120390RfUbCzQHaEI
 
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Josheb

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We're on the same page in regards to this. I see it pretty much the same as you.



What some of you fail to take into account, there is not just one bodily coming of Christ to this planet, there are two. The first bodily coming started with His birth. The 2nd bodily coming meaning Acts 1:11, for one. Why can there not be any prophecies connected with the 2nd bodily coming in the future? Why can't there be any events that need to be fulfilled in the end of this age, such as the time we are presently living in, assuming Christ returns in our lifetime? Why would all of the prophecies recorded in the Bible related to Christ's coming, only be related to His first coming, and none of it related to His 2nd coming?
Kinda sorta maybe. There are many comings.

The classic reformed position used to be Jesus comes at many times in many ways for many purposes. What has become known as "The Second Coming" has become a matter of great debate.... beginning in the mid-1800s. Jesus came to the disciples at Pentecost, he came to Saul on the road to Damascus. He came in judgment against Israel in 70 a.d. He has come to each of us in our conversion from death to life. He comes many time in many ways for many purposes. Prior to that everyone generally understood Christ was coming at the end to wrap up history but the historicists, the amils, and the post mills saw that playing out differently. It is only the pre-trib literal earthly kingdom two-plan folks (Dispensationalists) who see it differently. Do a study of the phrase "coming on the clouds" or anything having to do with God and clouds and you'll see that the Bible interprets that concept for us.

Here's a question that stumps a lot of people: In Hebrews 9:28 the original readers were told Jesus was going to come for a salvation that had nothing to do with sin. What, exactly, is a salvation apart from sin? This verse is the closest you'll come to reading of a "second coming." It is an assumption that the angel's mention of Jesus' return and the mention in Heb. 9 and all the other mentions are about one single singular event. Scripture never actually states any such thing.

The problem with appeals to Acts 1:11 are that they don't well reconcile with the description in the last half of Rev. 19. In Acts one Jesus was all warm and fuzzy. He'd just told them it wasn't time for them to know when the kingdom would be restored to Israel and he promised them the Holy Spirit, and then he's taken up to heaven by two angels. In Rev. 19 he's coming with a sword in the mouth and an army full of death and destruction.

That is not the way he left.

Acts 1:11
"They also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.'"

So either the angel was wrong and Jesus is coming in a different way than when he left or there are at least two different comings. When he comes with an army to set up an earthly kingdom that definitely has something to do with sin so the whole Dispensational paradigm of Jesus ruling from a throne in Jerusalem is al about sin; it's designed to bring the Israel to repentance and Christ's blood so logic tells us it can't be related to Heb. 9:28 when Jesus comes apart from sin.

Hebrews 9:27-28
"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

The Greek literally states, "...for a second time apart from sin will appear to those awaiting him for salvation." That's the Greek transliteration (and it's that way in both textus receptus and Westcott and Hort). That text was written to those who were "awaiting him" in the first century.


What, exactly, is a salvation apart from sin?
 
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Josheb

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There are plenty of images on the internet of the priests' garments.
And they all confirm purple and scarlet are the colors of the Levitical priesthood. They are all extra-biblical sources and they all confirm what I stated: purple and scarlet are the colors of the Levitical priesthood.
 
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claninja

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I just repeated what Christ said. He didn't say first century Jews were responsible for all righteous blood shed. Christ claimed they would be charged with the spilling of all righteous blood on earth.

So Jesus is charging the 1st century peoples of Jerusalem with a crime they didn't commit?

First century Jews were not present when the prophets arrived in Israel.

So then why should they be charged with all their bloodshed then?


I don't personally believe the Bible claims anyone is saved by Christ's blood, except meaning his blood was a foreseen sacrifice and resulted from what he did while he was alive and teaching on earth.

Is anyone righteous outside of Christ?
 
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claninja

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These two passages have nothing to do with each other, as per the timing, IMHO. One is about the Generation of the Jews in Jesus' time, they indeed suffered the punishment via the 70 AD Event and this becoming as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, however, they still can't have the Blood of ALL the Saints/Prophets of old AND the Martyrs of Jesus on their hands can they ? False Religion and False Government can. When Cain slew Abel, that was a form of both FALSE RELIGION {He was Jealous, God sees Jealousy as a Sin} and FALSE GOVERNANCE {No man should be killed unjustly}. So again, this CONFLATES the issues. Its ALL FALSE RELIGION and its ALL FALSE GOVERNANCE, of which Judaism was a part and still is, as is the SDA and Mormons IMHO. But if the passage can't be fulfill by the choice selected then the choice one has made is wrong, because God never is.

Your opinion provides no scripture to support it, thus it is merely speculation.

Obviously, the 1st century peoples of Jerusalem, whom Jesus charged with all the righteous blood in Matthew 23:35-36, didn't exist when abel was murdered.

So, is abel righteous outside of the atoning work of the cross? Can anyone be righteous outside of Christ?

If your answer is no, then the logical conclusion as to why the 1st century peoples of Jerusalem were charged with all the righteous bloodshed, is because they crucified Christ, not because of some "all false governance or false religion" speculation which you cannot back up with actual scripture.

Its common sense, by deduction. Only ALL FALSE RELIGION can be charged as Guilty.

That is only your deduction based on eschatological and subjective bias, not on objective scripture. If it was objective scripture evidence, you would be able to provide non symbolic langauge that specifically states all false religion and governance is charged with the bloodshed of the righteous. But as it is, as proof your response, you cannot.
 
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That is not the way he left.

Acts 1:11
"They also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.'"


That doesn't mean anything than he went up into heaven and he will come down out of heaven. It doesn't forbid returning with an army following or language that shows he is ready for battle.
 
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Josheb

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That doesn't mean anything than he went up into heaven and he will come down out of heaven. It doesn't forbid returning with an army following or language that shows he is ready for battle.
I agree. But those who claim to read prophesy literally don't read it literally when it comes to details like that.
 
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DavidPT

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Kinda sorta maybe. There are many comings.

The classic reformed position used to be Jesus comes at many times in many ways for many purposes. What has become known as "The Second Coming" has become a matter of great debate.... beginning in the mid-1800s. Jesus came to the disciples at Pentecost, he came to Saul on the road to Damascus. He came in judgment against Israel in 70 a.d. He has come to each of us in our conversion from death to life. He comes many time in many ways for many purposes. Prior to that everyone generally understood Christ was coming at the end to wrap up history but the historicists, the amils, and the post mills saw that playing out differently. It is only the pre-trib literal earthly kingdom two-plan folks (Dispensationalists) who see it differently. Do a study of the phrase "coming on the clouds" or anything having to do with God and clouds and you'll see that the Bible interprets that concept for us.

Here's a question that stumps a lot of people: In Hebrews 9:28 the original readers were told Jesus was going to come for a salvation that had nothing to do with sin. What, exactly, is a salvation apart from sin? This verse is the closest you'll come to reading of a "second coming." It is an assumption that the angel's mention of Jesus' return and the mention in Heb. 9 and all the other mentions are about one single singular event. Scripture never actually states any such thing.

The problem with appeals to Acts 1:11 are that they don't well reconcile with the description in the last half of Rev. 19. In Acts one Jesus was all warm and fuzzy. He'd just told them it wasn't time for them to know when the kingdom would be restored to Israel and he promised them the Holy Spirit, and then he's taken up to heaven by two angels. In Rev. 19 he's coming with a sword in the mouth and an army full of death and destruction.

That is not the way he left.

Acts 1:11
"They also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.'"

So either the angel was wrong and Jesus is coming in a different way than when he left or there are at least two different comings. When he comes with an army to set up an earthly kingdom that definitely has something to do with sin so the whole Dispensational paradigm of Jesus ruling from a throne in Jerusalem is al about sin; it's designed to bring the Israel to repentance and Christ's blood so logic tells us it can't be related to Heb. 9:28 when Jesus comes apart from sin.

Hebrews 9:27-28
"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

The Greek literally states, "...for a second time apart from sin will appear to those awaiting him for salvation." That's the Greek transliteration (and it's that way in both textus receptus and Westcott and Hort). That text was written to those who were "awaiting him" in the first century.


What, exactly, is a salvation apart from sin?

I mainly use the KJV as my choice of translations, yet I think the following translation makes that particular verse in Hebrews 9 crystal clear that this would have to involve His bodily return to the earth in order to fulfill this.


Hebrews 9:28, CSB: "so also Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And if we consider verse 28 in light of verse 27 in that same chapter, how can this part---but after this the judgment--possibly get fulfilled apart from Christ bodily returning first?


so also Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many----this part was fulfilled during the first bodily coming.

will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him---this part is fulfilled during His 2nd bodily coming to the earth, which is still yet to occur.
 
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Revealing Times

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Really, RT? Pious Orders or Religious Orders and Royalty? As "all false religion" that you claim to be the harlot, harlot ? What about Islam? False religion or not? image search - Islam mullahs

OIP.AlwwKAIs4120390RfUbCzQHaEI
Man, you don't get that ALL RELIGIONS aren't going to have the exact same colors do you ? The HINT Points us unto the colors Associated with EXPENSIVE/ Exclusive colors from 2000 to 3500 years ago, and on up until say 1200 A.D. these colors were expensive, thus exclusive, and thus worn by Religious Orders and Royalty, and that was the CLUE God was giving us. Do you think Purple and Scarlet are exclusive and expensive to make today ?

I don't get your thinking brother tbh, why would it matter what color anyone wore today ? The Reference was to what people 2000 years ago understood to be EXCLUSIVE and EXPENSIVE colors Associated with Religion and Government Royalty.
 
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