WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

[Douggg]

This op is about the harlot of Revelation 17. The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention.

The Temple Institute: The Priestly Garments: Significance of the Garments

There are fifty-two mentions of purple and scarlet describing the materials that went into the tabernacle and the priestly garments.

In the trim.

Would the first century audience have understood,

The institution of Judaism was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

...or...

The future institution of the Roman Catholic Church was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

Since with 20/20 hindsight, the events of Revelation 6-19 regarding Jesus's return have not happened yet, but the parable of the fig tree generation and fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8 a nation born in a single day signifies that we are in the generation which the Revelation 6-19 events will happen, I think that the generation of the time of the end should understand it to be the cardinals and bishops.

Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It was Jerusalem who killed the prophets and it was Jerusalem that first persecuted and executed the saints, not Rome and not the Roman Catholic Church. Saul was one of those persecutors until God knocked him of his donkey on the road to Damascus. There wasn't even and RCC to do any persecuting when the first century audience first read the book of Revelation!

The destruction of the Harlot, harlot, by the ten kings is end times. Did not happen in the first century. There is 20/20 hindsight to know the destruction of the Harlot, harlot, and other critical and interlaced parts of Revelation did not happen in the first century. There is no reason to pursue a first century narrative.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you conflate scriptures and try to prove they correlate, when they don't.

I kinda think they do, RT.

Who's kingdom must be destroyed, before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ, in Revelation 11:15 ?

That person is the king of Mystery Babylon the Great.

Somebody is going to lose his kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great and be cast into the bottomless pit. And the Kingdom of God become the ruling Kingdom here on earth. Jesus as King.

Praise God ! May Your Kingdom come... soon.

 

[Revealing Times]

Too much for me to try and address in your post, so I will try and take on this part for now.

Obviously the kings of the earth meant in Revelation 18:9 can't include the 10 kings meant in Revelation 17 if the city in both of these chapters are one and the same, my position.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

As stated before, one was a REAL CITY co-mingled with the Harlot False Religions. And one is a Metaphor via the End Times destruction of the world.

If the woman that they burn with fire is only meaning the woman in Revelation 17, and not the woman in Revelation 18, your position, then show where in Revelation 17 a woman is ever burned with fire? Why even mention that in that verse if it's something we never see anything further written about it? But if we consider Revelation 18, maybe there is something further being written about it. But first let's look at verse 17.

FIRE is a Metaphor for Destruction of said entity {FALSE RELIGIONS} Thus they kill off Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc all.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The text says---For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will. Any reason that can't also include God putting it in their hearts to burn her with fire? Let's now look at Revelation 18.

Revelation 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

The pronoun 'you' can't be meaning the kings of the earth in verse 9 who are seen lamenting her, since it wouldn't make sense for them to reward her as she rewarded them, then they lamenting her afterwards. The pronoun 'you' is apparently meaning the 10 kings in Revelation 17.

I will just have to go over all of Revelation to get some people to see the order of this great book of Revelation. I mean, who can't see that Governments of this evil world and False Religions are both deemed evil and JUDGED by God here ? Rev. 18 speaks about the MERCHANTS that's the number one giveaway its governmental judgment. Rev. 17 speaks about the Harlotry of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots {Semiramis} and Abominations {its an abomination to have any gods other than the one true God.} The Kings KILL OFF the Harlot, at the same time we get a FALSE PROPHET over Religion, and he demands BEAST WORSHIP !!

I am not worried about pro nouns, the Kings HATE the Harlot and CRY when Babylon is burning.

And notice what it eventually leads to---

Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


The text says---and she shall be utterly burned with fire---thus connecting back to Revelation 17:16-17, where we are initially told the 10 kings shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Unless you can show where in Revelation 17 that that woman is burned with fire in that chapter, that has to mean you are incorrect to conclude that there are two great cities in view between Revelation 17 and 18, rather than just one great city in view.

Metaphors are metaphors. You don't think that its going to say FALSE RELIGION will be burned do you? It also says she is naked. Either you get the Metaphors or you don't. What can I say on that issue ? It is what it is.
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The best way I can describe the book of Revelation is like this.

1.) Rev. 1, Jesus Glorified {The things which John has seen}
2.) Rev. 2 and 3 the Church Age {The things which are}
3. Rev. 4 and 5 {The HEREAFTER............After the Rapture we see the Church in Heaven but we see them there BEFORE the Seals are opened !!

4.) Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 run the gambit of the 42 Months of Gods Wrath {DOTL} In these are all of God's Judgments, the Seal {Wrath of the Lamb}, the 7th Seal brings the 7 Trumps, and the 7th Trump which is the 3rd Woe which is also the 7 Vials. Rev. 16:19 ends Satan's rule on earth.

5.) Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, and 19 are Parenthetical Chapters that happen during the Judgment Chapters ABOVE. They are not real time events per se. Rev. 10 is a FLASH FORWARD to the end time, my least understood chapter, all because I don't see much there there tbh.

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses chapter, they arrive 75 days before the 1260 Event and 45 days before the 1290 event, at the 1335 Event. They come to turn Israel back unto God, they don't come for the Gentiles, thus verses 1-3 can be understood as saying such. Woe 2 is shown here, but we know that happened in Rev. ch. 9 right ? The DETAILS are in Rev. 9, thus this is like I stated, a Parenthetical Chapter that is not a REAL TIME EVENT. Likewise, when the 7th Trump is blown {3rd Woe or ALL 7 Vials} we see the Conquest of Jesus taking over, but again we don't get the DETAILS, because the actual Conquest by Jesus happens in Rev. 16:19 at Armageddon.

Rev.12 is just like Rev. 11, its a Parenthetical Chapter, not a real time event. The Woman {Israel} flees at the 1290 event {30 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 event} and is protected in Petra for 1260 days once she makes it there, so Rev.12 has to actually start 30 days BEFORE the First Seal {the 1260} is opened bringing forth the Anti-Christ as THE BEAST.

Rev. 13 starts a the First Seal in ch. 6, The Beast ARISES out of the Mediterranean Sea of course, he Conquers, kills, rules for 42 Months. This is the Beast and False Prophet chapter.

Rev. 14 is the HARVEST CHAPTER, It shows the 144,000 {which I say is a Metaphor for ALL Israel who repented} on Mt. Zion at the Second Coming with Jesus, which represents THE WHEAT, which grows to the end of time with the WICKED TARES seen in Rev. 14:18-20 being thrown into the Wine-press of God's Wrath, or in other words, bundled into the grave, to be BURNED in 1000 years at the Second Death. So we see the Harvest of the Wheat and the Tares in this great Jewish book, BUT.....We see a soliloquy of sorts in verse 14, God shows what happened to the Church in verse 14, Jesus REAPED the Harvest of the Church from on a cloud. Amen. We went to be with the Lord, to Marry the Lamb in Heaven, then to return on White Horses {Metaphor for Conquerors} with him.

Rev. 17 starts with the Anti-Christ coming to power as the Beast in Rev. 6 with the First Seal, he will kill 2 billion or so people via 1/4 of Mankind. This is him killing off those who refuse to worship him as god. Thus he destroys all other Harlot Religions except his Harlot Religion/Beast Worship.

Rev. 18 is the World getting JUDGED, plain and simple. God isn't going to come to Judge ONE CITY, that never made sense to me. God is going to Judge the WHOLE WORLD, and we all know this. Babylon is the whole world. The Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments judge the earth over a 42 month period of time.

Rev. 19 is the Church in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb, then returning with the Lamb. The Marriage Supper is Armageddon. We defeat the bad guys because Jesus SPEAKS VICTORY !!

Rev. 20 is the Judgment Seat where the Martyrs get judged and they then rule with Jesus for 1000 years on this earth. Amen.

Rev. 21 and 22 is the Ever After and New Jerusalem.

All of these are Parenthetical Chapters, save chapters 20,21 and 22 which happen of course AFTER the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

The Kings KILL OFF the Harlot, at the same time we get a FALSE PROPHET over Religion, and he demands BEAST WORSHIP !!

Worship of the beast is false religion.

RT, I don't think it is rationale to maintain that the harlot, harlot, is all false religion, except the worship of the beast religion (because it doesn't fit). The harlot, harlot, is either all false religion or not.

I think the Vatican can be destroyed by fire, made desolate.

How are you connecting the harlot, harlot, clothed in scarlet and purple to all false religions?

 

[Josheb]

Doesn't mean I can't post what I did. Jerusalem and Babylon are two different concepts, one far larger than the other.

I does mean you're quoting and posting someone who is going to they read because it was already addressed. Either what was posted previously was read and neglected or it wasn't read and was... neglected. I'm not trading posts with others who do that and expect text-based content to be repeated for their benefit. I don't have much confidence in those folks. It's not personal, ewq1938, it's simply that experience has taught me cogent discourse won't ensure in such cases. I noted the post was already address in hope that content would be sought out and responded to. Instead, I got "Doesn't mean I can't...." Yeah, Okay.

The correct response is not to say yeah, well I can do whatever I want to do. The correct response is to go check out the content already provided and respond to that. When that happens then the conversation if furthered, trust is built, and integrity modeled. That I will go out of my way to work with.

So either go back and see how the content of your post was addressed and post accordingly or expect everyone to start over just for you and me to ignore it. You choose.

 

[Josheb]

The Temple Institute: The Priestly Garments: Significance of the Garments

Okay. I read through it. I give you scripture and in return I receive a website that uses scripture selectively and clearly ignores much of what was written in the Bible. And you post that in response to all the scripture I posted and don't post a single word about it.

How is that supposed to work if I can't rely on you to post something that is actually directly responsive to what I post and you treat a website as more authoritative than scripture?

 

[Josheb]

In the trim.
Since with 20/20 hindsight, the events of Revelation 6-19 regarding Jesus's return have not happened yet...

Sure they have.

They simply have not happened in the manner certain futurists imagine they will happen.

I've posted that statement multiple times and no one has responded to it. How is cogent conversation supposed to work if what I post is ignored so you can proceed and post whatever you want in neglect of what you're supposed to be posting to?

Look at what the text of Matthew 24:32- actually states.

Matthew 24:32-41
"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."​

1) When the audience to whom he is speaking sees these things. )audience affiliation)
2) "This generation" to whom he was then speaking. (time marker)
3) The "this generation" is conjugated in near demonstrative. (original language)
4) No one knows when but it will happen in this generation, not that generation.
5) In the days of Noah the one taken away were destroyed.

So sentences like, "When you see all these things...." gets completely re-invented to say, "When Christians in the 21st century see such things..."

The justification for this gross manipulation of scripture is a post hoc argument, "X, Y and Z haven't happened yet," to which my reply will be the exact same things I have already posted several times.

They simply have not happened in the manner certain futurists imagine they will happen.

Will that go ignored this time, too? If and when I ever get a rsponse will you or anyone else actually care enough to give any crdence to what you'll then read because if you are not interested in reading how the events foretold have already happened - just in a manner different than your eschatology tells you they'll happen - then don't bother asking me. Just say something like, "I'm sure you could come up with an explanation Josh but I'm not interested in reading it." At least then I would be left hanging and I'll know the discussion isn't happening and any further attempt at conversation is a waste of time.

Go pick up a copy of Gary Demar's "Last Days Madness" or Kim Riddlebarger's "The Case for Amillennialism," because they're going to explain the prophesies without post hoc arguments.

 

[Josheb]

...but the parable of the fig tree generation and fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8 a nation born in a single day signifies that we are in the generation which the Revelation 6-19 events will happen, I think that the generation of the time of the end should understand it to be the cardinals and bishops.

Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The destruction of the Harlot, harlot, by the ten kings is end times. Did not happen in the first century. There is 20/20 hindsight to know the destruction of the Harlot, harlot, and other critical and interlaced parts of Revelation did not happen in the first century. There is no reason to pursue a first century narrative.

None of which is what the scriptures actually state.

A nation was born in a single day. God's holy nation, the nation of royal priests chosen by God Himself. It was a nation born in a single day at Calvary )or Pentecost, if you prefer) and it is a nation made up of many nations.

That is what scripture tells us about God's separate (holy) nation.

I don't need anything but the Bible to understand the Bible. I didn't need the 21st century history book, nor the 21st century new report to understand the Bible. What I do need first is the proper, long-established and well-established rules of sound exegesis. Rules and practices that are absent in the posts I'm receiving. Copy and paste eisegesis is not exegesis.

For example: Daniel was told to leave the prophesies unsealed because the time (of the end) was not yet at hand. John, in comparison, was told to leave the prophesies unsealed because the time was..... near.

Daniel 12:1-13
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase. Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, 'How long will it be until the end of these wonders?' I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, 'My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?' He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 'Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.'"​

Revelation 22:6-14
"And he said to me, 'These words are faithful and true;' and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. 'And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.' I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.' And he said to me, 'Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.'"​

Seal them sealed in the sixth century BC versus unseal them in the first century AD and leave the unsealed.
The time is not yet at hand in the sixth century BC versus the time is near in the first century AD.

So the scriptures you yourself are using explicitly tell you and me what to believe if we will just read God's word as written.


But Josh, we're not at the end of time. Time has not ended.

Douggg, dear brother in Christ, they were living in the last days back in the first century. Jesus was foreknown by God before God created th world but Jesus was not revealed until those last days in which the NT was written.

1 Peter 1:17-21
"If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."​

 

[Douggg]

Okay. I read through it. I give you scripture and in return I receive a website that uses scripture selectively and clearly ignores much of what was written in the Bible. And you post that in response to all the scripture I posted and don't post a single word about it.

The temple Institute is a site by the Jews themselves. You had quoted parts of the Tanach regarding the garments, but did not acknowledge the scarlet and purple was in the trim in your commentary. The temple institute site provides artist renditions and narrative regarding the priests garments. I saw no reason to repeat what the Jews themselves have presented in extreme detail, and what would have been in effect in the first century.

 

[Josheb]

...but the parable of the fig tree generation and fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8 a nation born in a single day signifies that we are in the generation which the Revelation 6-19 events will happen, I think that the generation of the time of the end should understand it to be the cardinals and bishops.

Daniel 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The destruction of the Harlot, harlot, by the ten kings is end times. Did not happen in the first century. There is 20/20 hindsight to know the destruction of the Harlot, harlot, and other critical and interlaced parts of Revelation did not happen in the first century. There is no reason to pursue a first century narrative.

Let's look at Daniel 12 again. First, let me ask you when - from God's perspective - did the animal sacrifices cease? Was it 70 a.d. when Rome flattened Jerusalem or was it at Calvary? What does scripture say?

Hebrews 9:11-14, 24-26
"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, he entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, he entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?..." "For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.​

From God's perspective the animal sacrifices ended at Calvary. Daniel 12's prophesy about the cessation of animal sacrifices was fulfilled at Calvary.

Jesus mentions the "abomination of desolation." Where in scripture might we look to find out what that means? Have you ever bothered to study scripture for the terms "abomination" and desolation"? You are certainly aware of Jesus saying, "Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)," in Matthew 24:15. Have you noted what I have already posted, what Jesus said in the previous chapter?

Matthew 23:34-39
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'"​

The house of God was declared desolate by the Son of God.

The house of God was declared desolate by the son of God in the first century.

And, if you'll bother to read a little history of the time, you'll find when the zealots took over the temple of Jerusalem they not only sacrificed ordinary animals on the temple's alter, they also sacrificed humans. The historians chronicling these horrors said the blood was so thick that when it dried it caused people's sandals to stick to the floor causing them to lose the covering of their feet. The blood was so oprevalent that it splashed up on the walls hip high.

Do you think God's house being desolate was an abomination to God? Do you think the wanton disregard of His Son's sacrifice was an abomination to God? Do you think the sacrifice of of sinful humans in the desolate temple, making a mockery of His Son's sacrifice, was an abomination to God?

You are looking for things that have in fact all already happened.

They simply have not happened in the manner certain futurists imagine they will happen.

 

[Douggg]

None of which is what the scriptures actually state.

A nation was born in a single day. God's holy nation, the nation of royal priests chosen by God Himself. It was a nation born in a single day at Calvary )or Pentecost, if you prefer) and it is a nation made up of many nations.

That is what scripture tells us about God's separate (holy) nation.

I don't need anything but the Bible to understand the Bible. I didn't need the 21st century history book, nor the 21st century new report to understand the Bible. What I do need first is the proper, long-established and well-established rules of sound exegesis. Rules and practices that are absent in the posts I'm receiving. Copy and paste eisegesis is not exegesis.

For example: Daniel was told to leave the prophesies unsealed because the time (of the end) was not yet at hand. John, in comparison, was told to leave the prophesies unsealed because the time was..... near.

Daniel 12:1-13
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase. Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, 'How long will it be until the end of these wonders?' I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, 'My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?' He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 'Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.'"​

Revelation 22:6-14
"And he said to me, 'These words are faithful and true;' and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. 'And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.' I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, 'Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.' And he said to me, 'Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.'"​

Seal them sealed in the sixth century BC versus unseal them in the first century AD and leave the unsealed.
The time is not yet at hand in the sixth century BC versus the time is near in the first century AD.

So the scriptures you yourself are using explicitly tell you and me what to believe if we will just read God's word as written.


But Josh, we're not at the end of time. Time has not ended.

Douggg, dear brother in Christ, they were living in the last days back in the first century. Jesus was foreknown by God before God created th world but Jesus was not revealed until those last days in which the NT was written.

1 Peter 1:17-21
"If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."​

Not a single one of the apostles said that Jesus would return in their generation. None of the apostles applied the parable of the fig tree generation to their generation.

Of the disciples that were present when Jesus left this world and ascended to heaven, Jesus told them, regarding the restoration of the kingdom of Israel...

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[Josheb]

The destruction of the Harlot, harlot, by the ten kings is end times. Did not happen in the first century. There is 20/20 hindsight to know the destruction of the Harlot, harlot, and other critical and interlaced parts of Revelation did not happen in the first century.

Well, the Revelation 17 text does not say ten kings will destroy the harlot. It says there are seventeen kings and five of them have already fallen.

There is no reason to pursue a first century narrative.

Sure there is; I've just given you several. Given what scripture and the history of the time tells us there is no reason to look for fulfillment 20 or more centuries later.

 

[Douggg]

Let's look at Daniel 12 again. First, let me ask you when - from God's perspective - did the animal sacrifices cease? Was it 70 a.d. when Rome flattened Jerusalem or was it at Calvary? What does scripture say?

You are bringing up two separate issues. 1. did the animal sacrifices physically cease in 70 AD? yes.

2. were the animal sacrifices replaced by Jesus's death and resurrection in regards to removal of sin at the time of Jesus's sacrifice of Himself? yes.

The animal sacrifices that will physically begin again by the Jews, who are still in unbelief in Jesus, in these end times, will take place. And will be stopped by the Antichrist, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Well, the Revelation 17 text does not say ten kings will destroy the harlot. It says there are seventeen kings and five of them have already fallen.

It's in this verse...

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

 

[Douggg]

They simply have not happened in the manner certain futurists imagine they will happen.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Hasn't happened yet.

 

[Josheb]

The temple Institute is a site by the Jews themselves.

Which means they are enemies of Christ.

So not only have you ignored what Tanakh actually states and appealed to a website that uses Tanakh selectively, but you've resorted to using a website written by enemies of Christ who use Tanakh selectively.

And for some unexplained reason you think that it supposed to be persuasive in some way.

Scriptures states what it states and what it states in purple and scarlet (along with blue, white, and gold) were the colors of the tabernacle, the priests, and the design first found in the wilderness.

You had quoted parts of the Tanach regarding the garments...

Yes, I did.

but did not acknowledge the scarlet and purple was in the trim in your commentary.

Sahses are not trim. You are trying to find flaws where none exist. The fact is purple and scarlet were colors of the Levitical priesthood, as stated in scripture, and you've ignored that fact up until now, and now that it's been shown to you the response is to now go find some flaw with what I posted when what was posted is straight out of scripture, not some website made by Christ''s deniers.

Whether trim or not, purple and scarlet were the colors of the Levitical priesthood and that is what the first centuries would have understood the colors to reference, not a Roman Catholic institution that didn't then exist. Logic should tell you they couldn't have understood something that didn't exist.

The temple institute site provides artist renditions and narrative regarding the priests garments.

Except they are psare and selective with the use of their own scripture.

I saw no reason to repeat what the Jews themselves have presented in extreme detail, and what would have been in effect in the first century.

Except they are spare and selective with the use of their own scripture. The irony here is that they've provided interpretation forthe colors from within their own belief system, Judaism. They've done what you and I are called to do when we read the Bible. They've done what the first century Christian reader of Revelation would have done.

But you've ignored all that reality.

I will give you credit for investigating the purple and scarlet (I appreciate it) but you don't get any credit for ignoring scripture in favor of modern Jewish websites.


This op is about the harlot of Revelation 17. The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention. The harlot is said to be drunk on the blood of the saints and it was Jerusalem who at that time had killed the prophets and saints. There are over 340 references to the OT in John's Revelation. One of the most basic of rules in sound exegesis is to first understand the text as it would have been understood by the author and his first century audience. Most of what happens in Revelation is explicitly stated to occur quickly (not soon) because the time was near. The word "near" means near and scripture uses the word "near" many, many times and in all those uses it never means anything other than near.

 

[Josheb]

Hasn't happened yet.

Yes it has.

 

[Josheb]

It's in this verse...

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Yep. And who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city desolate?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one(s) who hated the city?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city naked?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city to eat the city's "flesh"?

Who would the first century reader have recognized as the one who made the city burn with fire?

And if and when we can't find answers in the Bible, where in the history of the first century do we look to find those answers?



Well.... the short answer to those questions in you case is, "I don't! I don't look to scripture, Josh! I don't look to the history of the first century. I look to something that is yet unrealized and rely on my own 20/20 hindsight to know it when it happens."

Okay.

You are certainly free to do so but that is not how scripture is supposed to be rendered or how it is supposed to be understood. Neither is it how the Christian church understood it before Darby, nor is it the majority view today.


The long answer is I've already provided the means of understanding the answers to those questions and I used scripture and scripture rightly rendered. You have not proven a single use of scripture I posted incorrect. This is important because if what I posted from scripture is correct then accept it, believe it, adjust your thinking, doctrine, and practice accordingly.

 

[Josheb]

Hasn't happened yet.

Sure it has.


It simply didn't happen as certain futurist eschatologies imagine it will happen.

 

[Douggg]

Which means they are enemies of Christ.

So not only have you ignored what Tanakh actually states and appealed to a website that uses Tanakh selectively, but you've resorted to using a website written by enemies of Christ who use Tanakh selectively.

And for some unexplained reason you think that it supposed to be persuasive in some way.

Scriptures states what it states and what it states in purple and scarlet (along with blue, white, and gold) were the colors of the tabernacle, the priests, and the design first found in the wilderness.

Yes, I did.

Sahses are not trim. You are trying to find flaws where none exist. The fact is purple and scarlet were colors of the Levitical priesthood, as stated in scripture, and you've ignored that fact up until now, and now that it's been shown to you the response is to now go find some flaw with what I posted when what was posted is straight out of scripture, not some website made by Christ''s deniers.

Whether trim or not, purple and scarlet were the colors of the Levitical priesthood and that is what the first centuries would have understood the colors to reference, not a Roman Catholic institution that didn't then exist. Logic should tell you they couldn't have understood something that didn't exist.

Except they are psare and selective with the use of their own scripture.

Except they are spare and selective with the use of their own scripture. The irony here is that they've provided interpretation forthe colors from within their own belief system, Judaism. They've done what you and I are called to do when we read the Bible. They've done what the first century Christian reader of Revelation would have done.

But you've ignored all that reality.

I will give you credit for investigating the purple and scarlet (I appreciate it) but you don't get any credit for ignoring scripture in favor of modern Jewish websites.


This op is about the harlot of Revelation 17. The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention. The harlot is said to be drunk on the blood of the saints and it was Jerusalem who at that time had killed the prophets and saints. There are over 340 references to the OT in John's Revelation. One of the most basic of rules in sound exegesis is to first understand the text as it would have been understood by the author and his first century audience. Most of what happens in Revelation is explicitly stated to occur quickly (not soon) because the time was near. The word "near" means near and scripture uses the word "near" many, many times and in all those uses it never means anything other than near.

copy and paste some images that supports your position regarding the garments.