 One or two little horns?

[ewq1938]

A resurrected body is not a restoration of the same body

Of course it is. Ask anyone. Check any dictionary.

Clarke:

John 11:44
Bound hand and foot with grave-clothes - Swathed about with rollers - κειριαις, from κειρω, I cut. These were long slips of linen a few inches in breadth, with which the body and limbs of the dead were swathed, and especially those who were embalmed, that the aromatics might be kept in contact with the flesh. But as it is evident that Lazarus had not been embalmed, it is probable that his limbs were not swathed together, as is the constant case with those who are embalmed, but separately, so that he could come out of the tomb at the command of Christ, though he could not walk freely till the rollers were taken away. But some will have it that he was swathed exactly like a mummy, and that his coming out in that state was another miracle. But there is no need of multiplying miracles in this case: there was one wrought which was a most sovereign proof of the unlimited power and goodness of God. Several of the primitive fathers have adduced this resurrection of Lazarus as the model, type, proof, and pledge of the general resurrection of the dead.

 

[Douggg]

Of course it is. Ask anyone. Check any dictionary.

Clarke:

John 11:44
Bound hand and foot with grave-clothes - Swathed about with rollers - κειριαις, from κειρω, I cut. These were long slips of linen a few inches in breadth, with which the body and limbs of the dead were swathed, and especially those who were embalmed, that the aromatics might be kept in contact with the flesh. But as it is evident that Lazarus had not been embalmed, it is probable that his limbs were not swathed together, as is the constant case with those who are embalmed, but separately, so that he could come out of the tomb at the command of Christ, though he could not walk freely till the rollers were taken away. But some will have it that he was swathed exactly like a mummy, and that his coming out in that state was another miracle. But there is no need of multiplying miracles in this case: there was one wrought which was a most sovereign proof of the unlimited power and goodness of God. Several of the primitive fathers have adduced this resurrection of Lazarus as the model, type, proof, and pledge of the general resurrection of the dead.

I'll take what Paul says of the resurrection of the dead over Clarke.

 

[ewq1938]

I'll take what Paul says of the resurrection of the dead over Clarke.

There's no disagreement or contradiction between the two men. You are literally the only person I know of that thinks a resurrection is only related to an immortal body. It's not.

Lazarus experienced a resurrection back to mortal life.
The beheaded saints in Revelation 20 will also experience a resurrection but it will be to immortal life not mortal life. Both events are still resurrections.

Again, in the two passages we have been discussing, there is no restoration of life to a dead body ie: no dead person coming back to life in their original body. None.

 

[Douggg]

There's no disagreement or contradiction between the two men. You are literally the only person I know of that thinks a resurrection is only related to an immortal body. It's not.

Paul wrote of the resurrected body as being a spiritual body, not a natural body.

1Corinthians15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Lazarus when he was brought back to life - it was in his natural body. Not in a resurrected spiritual body.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul wrote of the resurrected body as being a spiritual body, not a natural body.

And that is because he is speaking of the dead in Christ who will resurrect into immortal bodies. The unsaved dead will experience the other type of resurrection of having their old body resurrected back to mortal life.

In other words, your definition of what it means to be resurrected is wrong.

 

[Douggg]

And that is because he is speaking of the dead in Christ who will resurrect into immortal bodies. The unsaved dead will experience the other type of resurrection of having their old body resurrected back to mortal life.

And where are you getting that? They are resurrected in some sort of bodies not free of sin, but not in their natural bodies. And furthermore, what stage of their life before dying are they resurrected to ?
_____________________________________

We are going through all this tangent discussion because you claim the heads on the beast in Revelation 13 - are mountains.

 

[ewq1938]

And where are you getting that? They are resurrected in some sort of bodies not free of sin, but not in their natural bodies.

I said, "The unsaved dead will experience the other type of resurrection of having their old body resurrected back to mortal life."

And furthermore, what stage of their life before dying are they resurrected to ?

The bible does not say.

We are going through all this tangent discussion because you claim the heads on the beast in Revelation 13 - are mountains.

The bible says they are:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

[Douggg]

I said, "The unsaved dead will experience the other type of resurrection of having their old body resurrected back to mortal life."

A 98 year old unsaved man dies after his heart suddenly stops. When he is resurrected, will it be in his mortal body as it was ten seconds before dying.

The bible does say because the resurrected unsaved dead are not resurrected in their previous bodies. They are resurrected in a reconstituted body.

The little horn person is not "resurrected" in a reconstituted body in Revelation 13. It will be his same body, as he had when he is assassinated.

The bible says they are:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

That's in Revelation 17:9, not in Revelation 17:10. The seven heads in Revelation 17:10 are seven kings.
_______________________________________________

Is the little horn in Daniel 8:25, who stands up makes war on Jesus - the beast of Revelation 19:19 who makes war on Jesus ?

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Revelaton 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[ewq1938]

A 98 year old unsaved man dies after his heart suddenly stops. When he is resurrected, will it be in his mortal body as it was ten seconds before dying.

The bible does say because the resurrected unsaved dead are not resurrected in their previous bodies. They are resurrected in a reconstituted body.

No, they are resurrected in their old bodies.

The little horn person is not "resurrected" in a reconstituted body in Revelation 13. It will be his same body, as he had when he is assassinated.

There is not an assassination or a coming back to life in any sense in Revelation 13.

That's in Revelation 17:9, not in Revelation 17:10. The seven heads in Revelation 17:10 are seven kings.

Not according to the KJV:

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Verse 10 is a completely different topic.

The Revelation 13 beast has all 7 heads in tact. The 8 kings have 6 that died long ago. There's only two left. It's impossible for the 8 kings to also be 7 mountains.

Revelation 13 is about the territory of ten kingdoms in the future. Revelation 17:10 is about 6 former kings and 2 future kings. It's obviously not a match in any sense.

 

[Zao is life]

I follow your thinking with regard to the 4th beast of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation 13, it being the 7th head.

But I'm battling to see how that actually ties in with what Daniel 8 says about the little horn coming up in the latter days of the four Grecian kingdoms. Does Antiochus escape mention in prophecy?

There just seems to me to be a kingdom missing in-between the little horn rising in the latter days of the four Grecian kingdoms and the 7th head of Revelation with its 10 kings/4th beast of Daniel 7/ten toes of Daniel 2.

To me the time for the rising of the little horn in Daniel 8 is not adding up with the time for the rising of the little horn in Daniel 7 (because of the words, "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have come to the full, a king, fierce of face, and skilled at intrigues, shall stand up.", Daniel 8:23).

Aside from that, I find it amazing that if the little horn of Daniel 8 = the little horn of Daniel 7 = the beast ascended from the abyss of Revelation 17 (who the 10 kings give their power & authority to), then poor old Antiochus doesn't even get a mention in prophecy,

@DavidPT
Actually, come to think of it the apostle John did not live during the time of the four heads of the Grecian kingdom either. The 6th head that existed when John received the Revelation could not have been one of the four heads of the Grecian kingdom?

 

[Douggg]

The Revelation 13 beast has all 7 heads in tact. The 8 kings have 6 that died long ago. There's only two left. It's impossible for the 8 kings to also be 7 mountains.

One of those heads on the Revelation 13 beast - has been mortally wounded and healed. There are not 8 heads on tha beast.

The seventh head, the seventh king - after having been killed and brought back to life - has become the beast - KING 8. To continue the short space of 42 months.


Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must CONTINUE a short space.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to CONTINUE forty and two months.

 

[ewq1938]

One of those heads on the Revelation 13 beast - has been mortally wounded and healed. There are not 8 heads on tha beast.

You are the one who thinks the kings of Revelation 17 are also heads, not me.

 

[Douggg]

You are the one who thinks the kings of Revelation 17 are also heads, not me.

Revelation 17:10 indicates the 7 heads are also 7 kings. Revelation 17:9 the 7 heads are mountains where the woman sits - i.e. pertains to the woman. There is no woman in Revelation 13.

You have not responded to king 7, when he comes he must continue a short space. And in Revelation 13:5 it says the beast continues 42 months.

Continues from what? From being king 7, the mortally wounded but healed head.

And you have not responded to...

Is the little horn in Daniel 8:25, who stands up makes war on Jesus - the beast of Revelation 19:19 who makes war on Jesus ?

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Revelaton 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[tranquil]

I'm looking for arguments that the little horn in Dan 7 and 8 are speaking about the same entity, I already have 3, can anyone provide more?


Grammar of the word “little”

The word used for “little” in Dan 7 (“zə·‘ê·rāh”) is an adjective to the word “horn” which is used to assign a description to the entity that is the subject of this sentence.

But the word used for “little horn” in Dan 8 (“miṣ·ṣə·‘î·rāh”) is a noun, so this treats the entity that is the subject of this sentence as already having a defined identity. So this insinuates that it is referring back to the entity that was already defined as the “little horn” in Dan 7.


Origin of the little horn

Dan 7 indicates that the little horn doesn't originate from the 10 horns because it is states that it came up among, or between (“bê·nê·hên”, which root is the same as used in Dan 7:5 “It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth”) the 10 horns. It could be that this little horn originated directly out of the 4th beast just like the other 10 horns, but this is not explicitly stated. So the text conveys that this little horn came up between the 10 horns but (deliberately?) leaves it unspecified where it originated from.

Dan 8 indicates that the little horn originates out of one of the 4 horns (“ū·min-“), history shows that these 4 horns represent the Diadochi kingdoms (Ptolemaei, Seleuci, Lysimachi and Cassandri), so here the initially ambiguous origin of the little horn is now specified.


Timing of the little horn’s appearance

The little horn in Dan 8 emerges out of one of the Diadochi kingdoms of which the last (Ptolemaei) ended in 30 BC, while the 10 kingdoms could have emerged only after the collapse of the Roman empire in 476 AD, so that means there is a gap of about 500 years. But the word “ū·min-“ (“out of” or “from”) in Dan 8:9 only implies origin, it doesn't have any suggestion of imminence, so the little horn doesn’t necessarily emerges right after the Diadochi kingdoms seized to exist. But this does require a connection between one of the Diadochi kingdoms and the entity that is represented by the little horn spanning at least 500 years.

There are 2 little horns.

Grammar of the word “little”

The word used for “little” in Dan 7 (“zə·‘ê·rāh”) is an adjective to the word “horn” which is used to assign a description to the entity that is the subject of this sentence.

But the word used for “little horn” in Dan 8 (“miṣ·ṣə·‘î·rāh”) is a noun, so this treats the entity that is the subject of this sentence as already having a defined identity. So this insinuates that it is referring back to the entity that was already defined as the “little horn” in Dan 7.

This is actually an argument for there being 2 horns. The wording is different because they are 2 different people.

The 4 beasts in Dan 7 are contemporaneous and future (present). The kingdoms in Dan 2 are contemporaneous - the kingdom of heaven destroys all 4 kingdoms, not just the last one.

The leopard is the global government being given dominion (Daniel 7:6) (4 wings/ heads correlate to the 4 cardinal directions/ '4 winds' of the earth). The '4th beast' with 10 horns exists with the global government (which I view as the US in martial law under 10 FEMA governors who elect the US dictator, 11th horn).

When the 4th beast &/ or the Daniel 7 little horn is killed (Daniel 7:11-12), the saints take possession of this kingdom.

As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

When this extension is given, this is when Rev 13 is happening - this is why there is no '4th beast' (aside from the dragon) mentioned in Rev 13, but there is the 'lion, bear, & leopard' mentioned: these are the 'rest of the beasts'. The mortally head wounded beast is the 4th Beast &/ or the Daniel 7 little horn. The 'mortally head wounded beast' is the Dan 7 little horn, aka the 'antichrist'. This 4th beast's 11th horn ('the antichrist') becomes the ruler of the lion, bear, & leopard (if the US in martial law is the 4th beast, then the US dictator now becomes the dictator of the global govt/ UN).

The beast from the earth/ false prophet is the Daniel 8 Little horn.

The vision of Daniel 8 is explicitly said to be for the end times (Daniel 8:17), so why put all this non-Biblical historical mumbo jumbo to it? The 4 horns of Greece are the 4 sons of 'Javan' (Genesis 10:4). Since you like looking at Strong's, the word 'Greece' is 'Javan'. These sons of Javan are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

Kittim is mentioned in the context of the 'latter days' in Daniel 11:30 & and Numbers 24:24.

Tyre is called the 'daughter of Tarshish' in Isaiah 23:1-10. Tyre is the Daniel 8 little horn, the horn out of the 4 horns. The king of Tyre calls himself god. Tyre is the Daniel 8 little horn and is the False Prophet in charge of the temple. The Daniel 8 little horn is in charge of the temple/ defiles the temple.

There is no Daniel 7 4th beast in Revelation 13 because at that point it is subsumed into the global government, the leopard (although one could consider the 4th beast to be a conglomeration of these 4 entities).

The 'latter part of their kingdom' ('Greece' = 3rd beast in Dan 2, implied in Dan 7) in Daniel 8:23 correlates to Daniel 7:12's 'the rest of the beasts were given an extension of life' (the leopard, bear, & lion are the 'rest of the beasts'). The latter part of their kingdom is post- mortal head wound, when the leopard is given an extension life.

The 'prince of the host'/ prince of princes & saints that the Daniel 8 little horn is warring against are the saints that have taken possession of the kingdom (the now defunct 4th beast kingdom) in Daniel 7:22.

to recap:
The 'antichrist' is the Dan 7 Little horn who goes from controlling the 4th beast kingdom until it is destroyed, and who is mortally head wounded and 'resurrected' at the 7th Trumpet, when the saints take possession of this 4th beast kingdom. After resurrecting, the 'antichrist' is given control of the 'rest of the beasts' (in Rev 13) - the 'lion, bear, & leopard'. What remains of the 4th Beast is subsumed into the global govt (thus, there are 'saints' being warred against by those swearing allegiance to the global govt).

The False prophet is the Dan 8 Little horn (the king of Tyre) who is warring against the saints of the defunct 4th beast kingdom. Let's look at this POV example: let's say the antichrist is Trump, elected US dictator. If the 4th beast kingdom is subsumed into the global govt, the False Prophet is trying to entice the saints into the global govt by means of controlling a temple that the saints would find appealing.

 

[DavidPT]

There are 2 little horns.



This is actually an argument for there being 2 horns. The wording is different because they are 2 different people.

The 4 beasts in Dan 7 are contemporaneous and future (present). The kingdoms in Dan 2 are contemporaneous - the kingdom of heaven destroys all 4 kingdoms, not just the last one.

The leopard is the global government being given dominion (Daniel 7:6) (4 wings/ heads correlate to the 4 cardinal directions/ '4 winds' of the earth). The '4th beast' with 10 horns exists with the global government (which I view as the US in martial law under 10 FEMA governors who elect the US dictator, 11th horn).

When the 4th beast &/ or the Daniel 7 little horn is killed (Daniel 7:11-12), the saints take possession of this kingdom.

As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

When this extension is given, this is when Rev 13 is happening - this is why there is no '4th beast' (aside from the dragon) mentioned in Rev 13, but there is the 'lion, bear, & leopard' mentioned: these are the 'rest of the beasts'. The mortally head wounded beast is the 4th Beast &/ or the Daniel 7 little horn. The 'mortally head wounded beast' is the Dan 7 little horn, aka the 'antichrist'. This 4th beast's 11th horn ('the antichrist') becomes the ruler of the lion, bear, & leopard (if the US in martial law is the 4th beast, then the US dictator now becomes the dictator of the global govt/ UN).

The beast from the earth/ false prophet is the Daniel 8 Little horn.

The vision of Daniel 8 is explicitly said to be for the end times (Daniel 8:17), so why put all this non-Biblical historical mumbo jumbo to it? The 4 horns of Greece are the 4 sons of 'Javan' (Genesis 10:4). Since you like looking at Strong's, the word 'Greece' is 'Javan'. These sons of Javan are Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

Kittim is mentioned in the context of the 'latter days' in Daniel 11:30 & and Numbers 24:24.

Tyre is called the 'daughter of Tarshish' in Isaiah 23:1-10. Tyre is the Daniel 8 little horn, the horn out of the 4 horns. The king of Tyre calls himself god. Tyre is the Daniel 8 little horn and is the False Prophet in charge of the temple. The Daniel 8 little horn is in charge of the temple/ defiles the temple.

There is no Daniel 7 4th beast in Revelation 13 because at that point it is subsumed into the global government, the leopard (although one could consider the 4th beast to be a conglomeration of these 4 entities).

The 'latter part of their kingdom' ('Greece' = 3rd beast in Dan 2, implied in Dan 7) in Daniel 8:23 correlates to Daniel 7:12's 'the rest of the beasts were given an extension of life' (the leopard, bear, & lion are the 'rest of the beasts'). The latter part of their kingdom is post- mortal head wound, when the leopard is given an extension life.

The 'prince of the host'/ prince of princes & saints that the Daniel 8 little horn is warring against are the saints that have taken possession of the kingdom (the now defunct 4th beast kingdom) in Daniel 7:22.

to recap:
The 'antichrist' is the Dan 7 Little horn who goes from controlling the 4th beast kingdom until it is destroyed, and who is mortally head wounded and 'resurrected' at the 7th Trumpet, when the saints take possession of this 4th beast kingdom. After resurrecting, the 'antichrist' is given control of the 'rest of the beasts' (in Rev 13) - the 'lion, bear, & leopard'. What remains of the 4th Beast is subsumed into the global govt (thus, there are 'saints' being warred against by those swearing allegiance to the global govt).

The False prophet is the Dan 8 Little horn (the king of Tyre) who is warring against the saints of the defunct 4th beast kingdom. Let's look at this POV example: let's say the antichrist is Trump, elected US dictator. If the 4th beast kingdom is subsumed into the global govt, the False Prophet is trying to entice the saints into the global govt by means of controlling a temple that the saints would find appealing.

Some interesting points you make throughout this post. Some of it I tend to think you might be correct about, some of it, I'm not sure.

 

[AdB]

Extraordinary take you have there... But right of the bat, this ain't so...

The kingdoms in Dan 2 are contemporaneous - the kingdom of heaven destroys all 4 kingdoms, not just the last one.

The body parts of the statue are STATED by Daniel to come in sequence...
Dan 2:39-40 "But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom..."
The beasts are appearing in sequence also...
4. The first beast was like a lion
5. Suddenly another beast appeared
6. Next, as I watched, another beast appeared
7. After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared

 

[tranquil]

Extraordinary take you have there... But right of the bat, this ain't so...
The body parts of the statue are STATED by Daniel to come in sequence...
Dan 2:39-40 "But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom..."
The beasts are appearing in sequence also...
4. The first beast was like a lion
5. Suddenly another beast appeared
6. Next, as I watched, another beast appeared
7. After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared

Just because they are coming in sequence doesn't mean they are not contemporaneous.

The UK arrived before the US, does that mean the UK stopped existing when the US showed up?

Dan 2

34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.​

The iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold kingdoms were smashed by the stone that creates the kingdom of heaven.

Dan 2

44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
​

'Those kings' are referring to the gold, silver, bronze, iron kingdoms: all existing at the same time. The 'clay' are the saints before the kingdom is set up. 'Those kings' are smashed - they are all in existence when the kingdom is set up at the 7th Trumpet at Revelation 11:15-18.

Moreover, if you are saying that the Daniel 7 4th beast is the only beast around, why does the lion, bear, & leopard get an extension of life in Daniel 7:12 after the 4th beast is killed? Clearly, the lion, bear, and leopard are different from the 4th beast - and this is explicitly stated that they are different in Daniel 7:7.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 17:10 indicates the 7 heads are also 7 kings.

Not from the KJV. They are separate from the 7 mountains. How can they be the same? The 7 mountains all exist at the same time which the 8 kings are successive, with 6 of them dead and gone. It's impossible for the mountains to be the 8 kings.

You have not responded to king 7, when he comes he must continue a short space. And in Revelation 13:5 it says the beast continues 42 months.

Continues from what?

It does not say continue "from" anything. He appears and continues in power and authority for 42 months. Again, there is no death or coming back to life of anyone or anything in Revelation 13.

And you have not responded to...

Is the little horn in Daniel 8:25, who stands up makes war on Jesus - the beast of Revelation 19:19 who makes war on Jesus ?

No. I associate the concept of a "little horn" with the false prophet who has two little horns. They are the horns of a lambkin not a lamb as in adult lamb.

 

[Zao is life]

No. I associate the concept of a "little horn" with the false prophet who has two little horns. They are the horns of a lambkin not a lamb as in adult lamb.

That's what I have the little horn associated with also, but I'm always considering that I may be wrong about certain things when it comes to the way I see the beasts of the Revelation.

Do you think that the false prophet and little horn may be associated with the son of perdition of 2 Thessalonians 2?

 

[Douggg]

Not from the KJV. They are separate from the 7 mountains. How can they be the same? The 7 mountains all exist at the same time which the 8 kings are successive, with 6 of them dead and gone. It's impossible for the mountains to be the 8 kings.

Did you read what I wrote? It doesn't seem that way.

The seven heads are also 7 kings.

No one is claiming the mountains to be kings.

It does not say continue "from" anything. He appears and continues in power and authority for 42 months. Again, there is no death or coming back to life of anyone or anything in Revelation 13.

King 7 in Revelation 17:10, when he comes, he must continue a short space.

Since the beast, king 8 as it says in Revelation 17:11 is of the seven, and in Revelation 13 the beast continues for 42 months, then why isn't that 42 months the short space that king 7 must continue?

The answer is simple. King 7 will be killed and brought back to life to become the beast, king 8, and continues 42 month as the beast until Jesus returns.



10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.