 One or two little horns?

[AdB]

Pursuant to that issue, who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 - who the little horn person stands up against ?

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

I think it is obvious this is referring to Jesus Christ...
And as I responded earlier, I do think there is a case for an argument that both in Dan 7 and Dan 8 the little horn will be the last earthly empire before the eternal Kingdom of God will be established.
But this is not stated straight forward as such in Dan 8, only that the little horn "stands up against the Prince of princes", after which he will be broken "without hand".
So as also already said I think the connection to Dan 2:44-45 does indicate that the little horn in Dan 8 will be followed by the eternal Kingdom of God.
"In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever. And just as you saw a stone being cut out of the mountain without human hands, and it shattered the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold, so the great God has told the king what will happen in the future."

 

[AdB]

Then I used an example in Revelation 13 where we are told of the 7 headed beast, that one of it's head has a deadly wound and is healed. Which head though, since it doesn't tell us that in that chapter? I then went to Daniel 7 where it gives us the answer to that.

But what do you say is this "answer" because it's not clear to me what you think this is...

What do you make of the following?

Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


Isn't 'their kingdom' that is being meant meaning this---four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation?

What exactly is your point here?
"Their kingdom" is plural so refers to the 4 kingdoms that cam in place of the initial horn of the goat...

 

[Douggg]

I get most of that, yet the text indicates that these things take place in the latter part of their kingdom. Who's kingdom? How can the preceding verse not be the answer to that?

Because we know from 20/20 hindsight what happened to Alexanders kingdom. Which was not time of the end.

Differently, the little horn and his transgression of desolation is time of the end, from Daniel 8:17.

The transgressors in Daniel 8:23 are the ten kings and the little horn person, of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7. Which was the Roman Empire. In the end times - the EU.

 

[Douggg]

I think it is obvious this is referring to Jesus Christ...

So.... is there scripture of such a person standing up, to make war, against Jesus ?

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Where are the scripture leading to about the little horn person?

He eventually becomes the beast of Revelation.

 

[DavidPT]

But what do you say is this "answer" because it's not clear to me what you think this is...

.

Let's start with Revelation 13:2.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


These together make up the 7 headed beast, a beast with one body having 7 heads. If we then compare to Daniel 7, one will notice that these same 3 animals are mentioned, where we then learn that the bear and lion have one head each and that the leopard has 4. That equals 6 heads thus far. But the beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads. The 4th beast is the 7th head. It is the head that has the deadly wound. It is the head all 10 horns are upon. Therefore, by also using Daniel 7, we can then know which head of the 7 heads has the deadly wound and is healed, and that that head is where the horns are located. It's not the head involving the lion and bear, nor any of the 4 heads involving the leopard. It's the 4th beast.

 

[Douggg]

What exactly is your point here?
"Their kingdom" is plural so refers to the 4 kingdoms that cam in place of the initial horn of the goat...

In Daniel 8:23...

"their" is plural. The transgressors. But "kingdom" is singular.

 

[AdB]

The transgressors in Daniel 8:23 are the ten kings and the little horn person, of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7. Which was the Roman Empire.

Agree, but not fully

The little horn arose out of one of the four horns of the goat in Dan 8, the four horns clearly represent the Diadochi kingdoms which were eventually overthrown by the Roman empire.
The little horn also arose "amongst" the ten horns of the 4th beast of Dan 7, this 4th beast represents the Roman empire, which was also represented by the legs of the statue in Dan 2. The statue had a distinct mention of the feet that resemble the Roman empire (iron), but also is different from it (clay). It seems the "feet kingdoms" (2 feet having 10 toes) are the same as the 10 kingdoms in Dan 7. As per the sequence of the body parts of the statue in Dan 2 indicate the subsequent periods of dominance of each of the great empires, in the same way the 10 kingdoms would rise to dominance after the Roman empire.
So that seems to say that the little horn arises to power in the time AFTER the roman empire. The 10 kingdoms may represent the legacy of the Roman empire so it would still be fair to say that the 10 kingdoms are (in essence) the Roman empire.

 

[Douggg]

The 4th beast is the 7th head. It is the head that has the deadly wound.

The seven heads are 7 kings, not kingdoms. From Revelation 17:10.

The mortally wounded head on the beast in Revelation 13 is king 7 - the king yet to come in Revelation 17:10.

King 7 is the little horn person. When he is killed and comes back to life - it is as the beast of Revelation 17:11, the eighth king.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. the end times little horn person

8. the end times little horn person killed, and come back to life as the beast.

In Daniel 8:25 and Revelation 19:19 he stands up, to make war on Jesus.

 

[AdB]

In Daniel 8:23...

"their" is plural. The transgressors. But "kingdom" is singular.

"their kingdom" = "each of the four their own kingdom"

Strongs shows it is a single word that is translated as "their kingdom"
מַלְכוּתָ֔ם (mal·ḵū·ṯām)
Noun - feminine singular construct | third person masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 4438: 1) royalty, royal power, reign, kingdom, sovereign power 1a) royal power, dominion 1b) reign 1c) kingdom, realm

 

[Douggg]

The little horn arose out of one of the four horns of the goat in Dan 8,

This is where you are misunderstanding Daniel 8:9.

In Daniel 8:9, it is not referring to being part of one of the four breakup kingdoms - but to the territory once part of the four breakup kingdoms - which he waxes strong from heading into the middle east and Israel, in the end times.

In similitude, the three beasts of Revelation 13:2 is talking about territory. The EU in the end times will have gained control of the territory once held by the three historic kingdoms of the Babylonians, the Medes/Persians, the Greeks.

And in similitude, Gog/Magog is not talking about ancient personalities and ancient kingdoms - but is talking about the end times person referred to as Gog over the territories of those ancient persons and kingdoms.

Gog btw is not the little horn person. Remains to be seen who Gog actual is, Putin or not.

 

[DavidPT]

What exactly is your point here?
"Their kingdom" is plural so refers to the 4 kingdoms that cam in place of the initial horn of the goat...

It looks like Douggg has somewhat explained my point per post #26, since that was the point I was trying to make. I don't know if I agree that the trangressors are meant by 'their kingdom' though. Need time to think about it more first.

 

[AdB]

Let's start with Revelation 13:2.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


These together make up the 7 headed beast, a beast with one body having 7 heads. If we then compare to Daniel 7, one will notice that these same 3 animals are mentioned, where we then learn that the bear and lion have one head each and that the leopard has 4. That equals 6 heads thus far. But the beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads. The 4th beast is the 7th head. It is the head that has the deadly wound. It is the head all 10 horns are upon. Therefore, by also using Daniel 7, we can then know which head of the 7 heads has the deadly wound and is healed, and that that head is where the horns are located. It's not the head involving the lion and bear, nor any of the 4 heads involving the leopard. It's the 4th beast.

I fully agree about the beast in Rev 13 being a composition of all 4 beasts of Dan 7, the resemblances are simply too striking. But on what do you base the assumption that it is the 4th beasts head that is the one that has the deadly wound?

 

[Douggg]

"their kingdom" = "each of the four their own kingdom"

It is not saying each of the four (which you must assume as being four) transgressors in Daniel 8:23. Daniel 8:22 is historic. Daniel 8:23 is end times.

The ten kings and the little horn of Daniel 7 are the transgressors. Their kingdom is the EU in its latter stage.

 

[AdB]

It looks like Douggg has somewhat explained my point per post #26, since that was the point I was trying to make. I don't know if I agree that the trangressors are meant by 'their kingdom' though. Need time to think about it more first.

responded to Douggg in post 29...

 

[AdB]

In Daniel 8:9, it is not referring to being part of one of the four breakup kingdoms - but to the territory once part of the four breakup kingdoms

I never said the little horn would be PART OF one of the Diadochi kingdoms, but would arise OUT OF it. This can indeed be based on territory, but could also be through genealogy or culture.

 

[DavidPT]

I fully agree about the beast in Rev 13 being a composition of all 4 beasts of Dan 7, the resemblances are simply too striking. But on what do you base the assumption that it is the 4th beasts head that is the one that has the deadly wound?

I already did that in an earlier post, but I will do it again since that may have went over your head at the time.

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.


Verse 20 tells us which head the horns are in. It says in his head, therefore none of the other heads can be meant because they are all in the 4th beast's head. The 4th beast is the head the little horn emerges from.

 

[AdB]

So.... is there scripture of such a person standing up, to make war, against Jesus ?

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Where are the scripture leading to about the little horn person?

He eventually becomes the beast of Revelation.

It is quite reasonable that the "little horn" represents an initial stage of what eventually will be the beast of revelations, with this beast having all the features of the great empires combined. But I don't think that these images represent just one person in all places and that these images may represent the process of this beast being established.

 

[Douggg]

I never said the little horn would be PART OF one of the Diadochi kingdoms, but would arise OUT OF it. This can indeed be based on territory, but could also be through genealogy or culture.

Where the little horn person is actually born - I don't know.

 

[Douggg]

It is quite reasonable that the "little horn" represents an initial stage of what eventually will be the beast of revelations, with this beast having all the features of the great empires combined. But I don't think that these images represent just one person in all places and that these images may represent the process of this beast being established.

In Revelation 13, there is the kingdom of the beast person and the beast person himself.

The advancing of the little horn person to eventually becoming the beast person who stands up to make war against Jesus - is through a series of functional roles.

the little horn > the prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast

 

[AdB]

Verse 20 tells us which head the horns are in. It says in his head, therefore none of the other heads can be meant because they are all in the 4th beast's head. The 4th beast is the head the little horn emerges from.

Translated both as "in" but also as "on".
So verse 20 says the 10 HORNS are in or on the head of the 4th beast...
But how do you conclude that the other 6 heads (1 x lion, 1 x bear and 4 x leopard) are also in or on the 4th beasts head?