 One or two little horns?

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I'm looking for arguments that the little horn in Dan 7 and 8 are speaking about the same entity, I already have 3, can anyone provide more?


Grammar of the word “little”

The word used for “little” in Dan 7 (“zə·‘ê·rāh”) is an adjective to the word “horn” which is used to assign a description to the entity that is the subject of this sentence.

But the word used for “little horn” in Dan 8 (“miṣ·ṣə·‘î·rāh”) is a noun, so this treats the entity that is the subject of this sentence as already having a defined identity. So this insinuates that it is referring back to the entity that was already defined as the “little horn” in Dan 7.


Origin of the little horn

Dan 7 indicates that the little horn doesn't originate from the 10 horns because it is states that it came up among, or between (“bê·nê·hên”, which root is the same as used in Dan 7:5 “It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth”) the 10 horns. It could be that this little horn originated directly out of the 4th beast just like the other 10 horns, but this is not explicitly stated. So the text conveys that this little horn came up between the 10 horns but (deliberately?) leaves it unspecified where it originated from.

Dan 8 indicates that the little horn originates out of one of the 4 horns (“ū·min-“), history shows that these 4 horns represent the Diadochi kingdoms (Ptolemaei, Seleuci, Lysimachi and Cassandri), so here the initially ambiguous origin of the little horn is now specified.


Timing of the little horn’s appearance

The little horn in Dan 8 emerges out of one of the Diadochi kingdoms of which the last (Ptolemaei) ended in 30 BC, while the 10 kingdoms could have emerged only after the collapse of the Roman empire in 476 AD, so that means there is a gap of about 500 years. But the word “ū·min-“ (“out of” or “from”) in Dan 8:9 only implies origin, it doesn't have any suggestion of imminence, so the little horn doesn’t necessarily emerges right after the Diadochi kingdoms seized to exist. But this does require a connection between one of the Diadochi kingdoms and the entity that is represented by the little horn spanning at least 500 years.
 

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Came up with a 4th argument, anyone perhaps has any additional?

Logical use of terminology

The prophesy of Dan 7 was given in the 1st year of Belshazzar, while the prophesy of Dan 8 was given only 2 or 3 years later. There had not been any other revelations in between (“a vision appeared to me, Daniel, subsequent to the one that had appeared to me earlier.”) so the revelation of Dan 8 followed directly on the revelation of Dan 7. It would be confusing to use the same terminology of “little horn” in Dan 8 if it didn’t refer to the same entity as in Dan 7.
 
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Douggg

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The little horn in Dan 8 emerges out of one of the Diadochi kingdoms of which the last (Ptolemaei) ended in 30 BC, while the 10 kingdoms could have emerged only after the collapse of the Roman empire in 476 AD, so that means there is a gap of about 500 years.
It means out of the territory of one of the historic Diadochi kingdoms. waxes strong - which means he has a strong army when he moves into the middle east and Israel.

He will assemble his army in Greece.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The little horn person is an end times person, as the vision of him and his transgression of desolation is time of the end.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.


1. he has a strong army.
2. he stands up - in verse 23, an idiom for prepares to go to war.
3. he commits the transgression of desolation act - 2Thessalonians2:4
4. he destroys many by peace - when they say peace and safety - 1Thessalonians5
5. he persecutes the saints for a time/times/half time

He becomes the leader of the EU. Gog/Magog appears imminent. As a Jew, he stages his EU army in Greece to act as a deterrent.

Gog/Magog take s place. Gog's army destroyed by God. The little horn person, as the prince who shall come, moves into the middle east to occupy the oil territories, on the guise of peace keeper.

The Jews perceive him to be the messiah. False prophet anoints him as the King of Israel. He becomes the Antichrist. False messianic age begins.




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DavidPT

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Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Verse 9 tells us this---And out of one of them came forth a little horn---except it never bothers to tell us which one. In my mind I don't find that reasonable that we not told which one the little horn came forth from. With that in mind, consider the following first, in order to prove what I will be attempting to prove about verse 9 and which one of them the little horn comes forth from.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Verse 3 tells us this---And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death---except it never bothers to tell us which head. In my mind I don't find that reasonable that we not told which head has the deadly wound. Nor are we told which head or heads the 10 horns are on.

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Now we have the answer as to which head has the deadly wound and is healed and which head has the 10 horns. The answer is right there in verse 19 and 20 above. In the same way I showed this, I will now attempt to show via the verses below which one of them in Daniel 8:8-9 the little horn comes forth from.


Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Now we have the answer to which of the 4 the little horn comes forth out of. The answer is in verse 7 and 8. It can't be a coincidence that both Daniel 7 and 8 involve the 4 winds of heaven, and that both accounts involve yet another 4, four notable ones(Daniel 8:8)---four great beasts(Daniel 7:3)--therefore, in Daniel 8:8 four notable ones are apparently meaning these same four great beasts in Daniel 7:3.
 
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It means out of the territory of one of the historic Diadochi kingdoms. waxes strong - which means he has a strong army when he moves into the middle east and Israel.

He will assemble his army in Greece.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The little horn person is an end times person, as the vision of him and his transgression of desolation is time of the end.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.


1. he has a strong army.
2. he stands up - in verse 25, an idiom for prepares to go to war.
3. he commits the transgression of desolation act - 2Thessalonians2:4
4. he destroys many by peace - when they say peace and safety - 1Thessalonians5
5. he persecutes the saints for a time/times/half time

He becomes the leader of the EU. Gog/Magog appears imminent. As a Jew, he stages his EU army in Greece to act as a deterrent.

Gog/Magog take s place. Gog's army destroyed by God. The little horn person, as the prince who shall come, moves into the middle east to occupy the oil territories, on the guise of peace keeper.

The Jews perceive him to be the messiah. False prophet anoints him as the King of Israel. He becomes the Antichrist. False messianic age begins.




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Why is it that you alway start promoting you own ideas without simply answering the initial question of the thread?
1 or 2 little horns?
 
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Douggg

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Why is it that you alway start promoting you own ideas without simply answering the initial question of the thread?
1 or 2 little horns?
The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person. That one person goes through a series of functional roles until becoming the beast in Revelation. Why do you object to my giving a comprehensive picture about the person?

as the little horn
as the prince who shall come
as the Antichrist
as the revealed man of sin
as the beast

As the beast he stands up (an idiom for prepares to go to war) against Jesus...

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
 
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The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person. That one person goes through a series of functional roles until becoming the beast in Revelation. Why do you object to my giving a comprehensive picture about the person?
I am already familiar with your point of view, you've posted that on this site more than once... The reason for this thread though is to establish sound arguments for the little horns in Dan 7 and 8 to indeed be one and the same. "The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person" is a statement, not an argument...
 
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Douggg

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I am already familiar with your point of view, you've posted that on this site more than once... The reason for this thread though is to establish sound arguments for the little horns in Dan 7 and 8 to indeed be one and the same. "The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person" is a statement, not an argument...
I wasn't just posting to you, as this forum is viewable to the public for all to read.

In your post #5, you directed this question to me....

"1 or 2 little horns?"

My answer was "The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person".

You did not ask me with that question about arguments of the little horn being about one or two individuals.

Why didn't you in your "arguments" address the end of the little horn person is the same in both Daniel 7:25-27 and 8:25, with Jesus's Return, to bring the everlasting kingdom of God here to earth to rule over all kingdoms, destroying both the little horn and his kingdom ?

Are you wanting to funnel others to your view and conclusions about the little horn? Which are ? Please get to the point.
 
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You did not ask me with that question about arguments of the little horn being about one or two individuals.
This is actually in the initial post of this thread...
I'm looking for arguments that the little horn in Dan 7 and 8 are speaking about the same entity, I already have 3, can anyone provide more?

My answer was "The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person".
That is a statement, not an argument...

Why didn't you in your "arguments" address the end of the little horn person is the same in both Daniel 7:25-27 and 8:25, with Jesus's Return, to bring the everlasting kingdom of God here to earth to rule over all kingdoms, destroying both the little horn and his kingdom ?
I've been considering this indeed, but I actually don't find a solid statement in Dan 8 that after the little horn is destroyed the eternal Kingdom of God will be established. I am thinking about making a connection to Dan 2:45 "And just as you saw a stone being cut out of the mountain without human hands" through the statement in Dan 8:25 "Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands"
 
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Douggg

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in Dan 8:25 "Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands"
Because he stands up against the Prince of princes - Jesus !

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Does the little horn person ultimately become the beast of Revelation or not ?

Please get to the point of your view and conclusions about the little horn person.

______________________________________________________

Information about the person is not comprehensive in any one chapter in the bible. Information about the person is given over many many chapters in the bible. That information has to be put together to get the comprehensive picture of the end times, involving him and his kingdom.
 
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Please get to the point of your view and conclusions about the little horn person.
That's the whole point of this thread, I'm trying to see where scripture leads to. Considering the little horns in Dan 7 and 8 it seems to me it is about one and the same entity, for which I gave 4 lines or reasoning, but I might be wrong, or there might be even more arguments also in favor of that premisis.

I'm not having a fixed conclusion for which I'm looking for scriptual confirmation which I think actually is a very dangerous route to take..
 
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Douggg

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That's the whole point of this thread, I'm trying to see where scripture leads to. Considering the little horns in Dan 7 and 8 it seems to me it is about one and the same entity, for which I gave 4 lines or reasoning, but I might be wrong, or there might be even more arguments also in favor of that premisis.

I'm not having a fixed conclusion for which I'm looking for scriptual confirmation which I think actually is a very dangerous route to take..
Why then are you considering just the little horn individual and not the rest of the content in Daniel 7 and 8 associated with him?

Like timing? Like who are the transgressors in Daniel 8:23? Like what is the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23? Like what is the sanctuary and the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:12?

Like what is the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7:23-24, that the little horn emerges out of?

I'm trying to see where scripture leads to.
So who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 ?
 
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Why then are you considering just the little horn individual and not the rest of the content in Daniel 7 and 8 associated with him?

Like timing? Like who are the transgressors in Daniel 8:23? Like what is the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23? Like what is the sanctuary and the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:12?

Like what is the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7:23-24, that the little horn emerges out of?


So who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 ?
I am considering the whole text of Dan 7 and 8, but the question posted in this thread is simply if the little horns in both chapters are the same or not...
 
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DavidPT

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I am already familiar with your point of view, you've posted that on this site more than once... The reason for this thread though is to establish sound arguments for the little horns in Dan 7 and 8 to indeed be one and the same. "The little horn references in Daniel 7-8 are of one person" is a statement, not an argument...


As to the post I made which you didn't comment on it one way or the other, it seems to show, at least to me anyway, that the little horn in Daniel 7 and the little horn in Daniel 8, these are one and the same, not two different little horns instead.
 
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Douggg

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I am considering the whole text of Dan 7 and 8, but the question posted in this thread is simply if the little horns in both chapters are the same or not...
Pursuant to that issue, who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 - who the little horn person stands up against ?

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
 
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Douggg

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Now we have the answer to which of the 4 the little horn comes forth out of. The answer is in verse 7 and 8. It can't be a coincidence that both Daniel 7 and 8 involve the 4 winds of heaven, and that both accounts involve yet another 4, four notable ones(Daniel 8:8)---four great beasts(Daniel 7:3)--therefore, in Daniel 8:8 four notable ones are apparently meaning these same four great beasts in Daniel 7:3.
The four horns in Daniel 8:22 are the four generals who headed up the four breakup kingdoms of Alexanders kingdom - the Greek empire.

In Daniel 7:6 the four heads of the third beast (the Greek empire) are those four generals.

The fourth beast in Daniel 7:7 follows the Greek empire and its four generals. The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire.

The little horn in Daniel 8 and the vision of him committing the transgression of desolation is time of the end.

In Daniel 7, he and the ten kings (the transgressors of Daniel 8:23) are of the fourth kingdom. So in the end times the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, has been manifest as the EU.

"their kingdom", that of the transgressors, in Daniel 8:23 is the EU.

The ten kings have not been identified yet, nor the little horn person.
 
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As to the post I made which you didn't comment on it one way or the other, it seems to show, at least to me anyway, that the little horn in Daniel 7 and the little horn in Daniel 8, these are one and the same, not two different little horns instead.
I did indeed not yet respond to your initial post, mainly because I was busy responding to the others, but I must say also because your post leaves a lot open to what you actually mean. Twice you say that certain verses provide the answer, but you then do not elaborate on what you mean exactly, leaving the reader to guess what you mean.

in Daniel 8:8 four notable ones are apparently meaning these same four great beasts in Daniel 7:3
I will already respond to this part though because I think the texts doesn't allow this conclusion.
The 4 beasts in Dan 7 are coming in sequence and are clearly aligning with the body parts of the statue in Dan 2, thus these are the great empires starting with babylon and following. History shows these have to be the medo-persian as second, the Grecian as third and the Roman as fourth.
The goat in Dan 8 from which the 4 horns emerge is identified as the Grecian empire, so the 4 horns are out of the 3rd beast, thus can't be representing all 4 beasts at the same time.

I'm looking for arguments that the little horn in Dan 7 and 8 are speaking about the same entity, I already have 3, can anyone provide more?
So you say that you do agree that the little horn in Dan 7 is the same as the little horn in Dan 8, but my initial request is whether the arguments I provide are sound or are in error...
 
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DavidPT

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I did indeed not yet respond to your initial post, mainly because I was busy responding to the others, but I must say also because your post leaves a lot open to what you actually mean. Twice you say that certain verses provide the answer, but you then do not elaborate on what you mean exactly, leaving the reader to guess what you mean.

I will already respond to this part though because I think the texts doesn't allow this conclusion.
The 4 beasts in Dan 7 are coming in sequence and are clearly aligning with the body parts of the statue in Dan 2, thus these are the great empires starting with babylon and following. History shows these have to be the medo-persian as second, the Grecian as third and the Roman as fourth.
The goat in Dan 8 from which the 4 horns emerge is identified as the Grecian empire, so the 4 horns are out of the 3rd beast, thus can't be representing all 4 beasts at the same time.

So you say that you do agree that the little horn in Dan 7 is the same as the little horn in Dan 8, but my initial request is whether the arguments I provide are sound or are in error...

What I argued was, in Daniel 8:9 it indicates that the little horn came out one of them, but then never bothers to show which one. Then I used an example in Revelation 13 where we are told of the 7 headed beast, that one of it's head has a deadly wound and is healed. Which head though, since it doesn't tell us that in that chapter? I then went to Daniel 7 where it gives us the answer to that. That is the same procedure I did involving Daniel 8:9, I went to ch 7 where it gives us the answer to that.

What do you make of the following?

Daniel 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


Isn't 'their kingdom' that is being meant meaning this---four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation?
 
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Douggg

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Isn't 'their kingdom' that is being meant meaning this---four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation?
No. The little horn is not found in Daniel 8:22. Daniel 8:22 is historic to us, of what happened following Alexander's kingdom.

"Their kingdom" in Daniel 8:23 is that of the transgressors.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The ten kings and the little horn do not emerge in the initial stages of the kingdom which they are part of. But in the latter time of it.

The EU has its roots back in the 1950's and has evolved since then. The ten kings and the little horn have not been identified yet. But since it is in the latter time of their kingdom, the EU, they will soon be apparent.
 
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DavidPT

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No. The little horn is not found in Daniel 8:22. Daniel 8:22 is historic to us, of what happened following Alexander's kingdom.

"Their kingdom" in Daniel 8:23 is that of the transgressors.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The ten kings and the little horn do not emerge in the initial stages of the kingdom which they are part of. But in the latter time of it.



The EU has its roots back in the 1950's and has evolved since then. The ten kings and the little horn have not been identified yet. But since it is in the latter time of their kingdom, the EU, they will soon be apparent.


I get most of that, yet the text indicates that these things take place in the latter part of their kingdom. Who's kingdom? How can the preceding verse not be the answer to that? You reason it to mean the kingdom of the transgressors. Can't say I ever thought of it that way. I don't know what to make of that yet. Haven't had enough time to think about it.
 
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