 One or two little horns?

[ewq1938]

King 7 is the little horn person. When he is killed and comes back to life - it is as the beast of

Revelation 13 has no resurrection nor is a person being wounded in the head. The heads are mountains which are areas of land. It's symbolic of a war happening in an area of the world. An example of a wound to an area would be when Japan was nuked. That's two deadly wounds that Japan healed from. That's the kind of wound an area of land in the world will suffer and heal from.

 

[AdB]

A horn is a king and all kings have a kingdom.

Yes, and for the 4 horns there is even a direct referring too it being a kingdom (with a king).
And as I already argued:

This is in line with the concept in ancient times that a king was the embodiment of the entire kingdom.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, and for the 4 horns

I don't see a reference to 4 horns in Daniel or Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

Which I actually indicate, but I would argue the logic of the image of a horn to be allowed to represent a king or a kingdom interchangeable

The text does not contain anything about the little horn being a kingdom.

You are trying to copy and paste what Gabriel said of the four generals of Alexander's four breakup kingdoms - and overlay it about what is written about the little horn.

The text though does not say anything about the little horn being a kingdom.

______________________________________________________________________

Allow me to point something out to you.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel appears to Daniel - who Daniel referred to seeing Gabriel before in Daniel 8 and addressed the little horn and of him committing the transgression of desolation, and stopping the daily sacrifice.

What vision is Gabriel referring to in Daniel 9?:23 ? This is critical. It s the vision about the little horn, to take place in the time of the end. The little horn is the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26. Who confirms the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, [back in Daniel 8] being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The matter is the 70 years of captivity being about up that Daniel was praying about in the opening verses in Daniel 9.

The vision though is the vision about the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation (revealing himself as the man of sin).

the little horn > becomes the prince who shall come > become the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast of Revelation.

You should already realize that the little horn standing up against Jesus, to make war on Him in Daniel 8:25 is him as the beast in Revelation 19:19 making war on Jesus.

So you got so far...

the little horn > becomes the beast of Revelation.

 

[AdB]

I don't see a reference to 4 horns in Daniel or Revelation.

Dan 8:8,22

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 13 has no resurrection nor is a person being wounded in the head. The heads are mountains which are areas of land. It's symbolic of a war happening in an area of the world. An example of a wound to an area would be when Japan was nuked. That's two deadly wounds that Japan healed from. That's the kind of wound an area of land in the world will suffer and heal from.

I would not call it a resurrection. I would call it a recovery from having died, a few days before, back alive in his same body.

In Isaiah 14, the person finds his soul in hell, but is not allowed to remain there very long. God in disdain for the person returns his soul back to his body. Not allowing him the honor of his dead body being placed, buried, in an ornate tomb like other notable kings (in verse 18)

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

The person will not be buried. He will be in a casket, viewable, as being dead for several days, by the whole world, before coming back to life as the world looks on - and claiming to have overcome death.

 

[ewq1938]

I would not call it a resurrection. I would call it a recovery from having died, a few days before, back alive in his same body.

Well that is a resurrection but the text uses a word that does not mean a resurrection. The head is wounded and then the wound heals.

G2323
θεραπεύω
therapeuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to serve, do service
2) to heal, cure, restore to health
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G2324
Citing in TDNT: 3:128, 331


It's a word where our word therapy comes from.

No person was killed and then comes back to life in Revelation 13.

The person will not be buried. He will be in a casket, viewable, as being dead for several days, by the whole world, before coming back to life as the world looks on - and claiming to have overcome death.

That's not what the passage is saying and it is not related to anything in Revelation 13.

 

[AdB]

The text does not contain anything about the little horn being a kingdom.

You are trying to copy and paste what Gabriel said of the four generals of Alexander's four breakup kingdoms - and overlay it about what is written about the little horn.

The text though does not say anything about the little horn being a kingdom.

______________________________________________________________________

Allow me to point something out to you.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel appears to Daniel - who Daniel referred to seeing Gabriel before in Daniel 8 and addressed the little horn and of him committing the transgression of desolation, and stopping the daily sacrifice.

What vision is Gabriel referring to in Daniel 9?:23 ? This is critical. It s the vision about the little horn, to take place in the time of the end. The little horn is the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26. Who confirms the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, [back in Daniel 8] being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The matter is the 70 years of captivity being about up that Daniel was praying about in the opening verses in Daniel 9.

The vision though is the vision about the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation (revealing himself as the man of sin).

the little horn > becomes the prince who shall come > become the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast of Revelation.

You should already realize that the little horn standing up against Jesus, to make war on Him in Daniel 8:25 is him as the beast in Revelation 19:19 making war on Jesus.

So you got so far...

the little horn > becomes the beast of Revelation.

If the little horn is only refering to a person, then how do you explain Dan 9:9 "From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land."
To me this sounds like a territorial expansion...

 

[Douggg]

If the little horn is only refering to a person, then how do you explain Dan 9:9 "From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land."
To me this sounds like a territorial expansion...

I think you meant Daniel 8:9.

As I said before, it is referring to the geographic location of where the little horn person with his strong army will head into the middle east and Israel from.

9 And out of [the geographic location of] one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Greece, one of the four breakup kingdoms, is the eastern frontier of the EU. Greece is where the little horn will position, stage, his EU army..... before moving into the middle east and Israel.... on the premise of peace keeping in the region - following the Gog/Magog event.

 

[Douggg]

No person was killed and then comes back to life in Revelation 13.

The little horn person will be killed and recovers (not resurrected) back to life in his same body - not a resurrected body.

Revelation 17:8b, the world will witnesses it all happening.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast in Revelation 17:8a is the original garden of eden serpent beast, now a disembodied spirit, which will come out and possess the end times person at the point of the end times person recovering from death.

 

[ewq1938]

The little horn person will be killed and recovers (not resurrected) back to life in his same body - not a resurrected body.

Again, that is not found in the text. A mountain receives a wound but that wound heals so no death.

Barnes:

Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads, as it were wounded to death - The phrase “wounded to death” means properly that it received a mortal wound, that is, the wound would have been mortal if it had not been healed. A blow was struck that would be naturally fatal, but there was something that prevented the fatal result.

 

[Douggg]

Again, that is not found in the text.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

In Revelation 17:10...
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The little horn person will be killed, comes back to life, and continues 42 months, the short space.

In Daniel 8:25, he stands up to make war against Jesus. And in Revelation 19:19, as the beast, he makes war on Jesus.

little horn > becomes the beast of Revelation 13, who continues but as the beast (no longer the little horn) for 42 months.

little horn - leader of the EU.
beast - dictator of the EU, and the world, for 42 months.

 

[ewq1938]

The passage doesn't use "kill" or "killed" and no word that means resurrected. Barnes is correct that a wound that could have become deadly was avoided because the wound healed. No resurrection, no person dying and coming back to life. No body laying in a casket.

You'd be better off saying the antichrist is wounded in the head and recovers rather than this never mentioned killed and came back to life business...though that would still be incorrect but less incorrect.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

In Revelation 17:10...
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The little horn person will be killed, comes back to life, and continues 42 months, the short space.

In Daniel 8:25, he stands up to make war against Jesus. And in Revelation 19:19, as the beast, he makes war on Jesus.

little horn > becomes the beast of Revelation 13, who continues but as the beast (no longer the little horn) for 42 months.

 

[Douggg]

The passage doesn't use "kill" or "killed" and no word that means resurrected. Barnes is correct that a wound that could have become deadly was avoided because the wound healed. No resurrection, no person dying and coming back to life. No body laying in a casket.

Unfortunatley, Barnes apparently never read Ezekiel 28:1-10, which is in reference to the 2Thesslaonians2:4 act. The person will be killed for his act.


1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


The person, once he becomes the Antichrist, is going to be assassinated for going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

 

[ewq1938]

There is no resurrection in that passage either.

Unfortunatley, Barnes apparently never read Ezekiel 28:1-10, which is in reference to the 2Thesslaonians2:4 act. The person will be killed for his act.


1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


The person, once he becomes the Antichrist, is going to be assassinated for going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

 

[Douggg]

There is no resurrection in that passage either.

You are the only person talking about a "resurrection". I am not. I am saying a recovery back to life in his same body - not a resurrected body.

The person will be killed, assassinated, and recovers back to life in his same body.

Laying in a casket, dead for days, before recovering back to life - in his same body, not a resurrected body.

It is not by happen stance, nor any other power but God returning his soul to his body in disdain for him - to go on to be cast alive into the lake of fire at the end of the 42 months of being the beast.

 

[ewq1938]

You are the only person talking about a "resurrection". I am not. I am saying a recovery back to life in his same body - not a resurrected body.

That is still a resurrection. There are two types of physical resurrections:

1. Resurrection back to mortal life in a mortal body like Lazarus.
2. Resurrection to immortal life in an immortal body.

The person will be killed, assassinated, and recovers back to life in his same body.

A resurrection as number 1 is.

Laying in a casket, dead for days, before recovering back to life - in his same body, not a resurrected body.

The terms best to be used are "original body" and "glorified body". "Resurrected body" can be either mortal or immortal.

Either way you are suggesting a form of resurrection in both passages but neither passage has one.

 

[Douggg]

That is still a resurrection. There are two types of physical resurrections:

1. Resurrection back to mortal life in a mortal body like Lazarus.
2. Resurrection to immortal life in an immortal body.

Jesus demonstrated that He had power over death, and that He is the resurrection (the power of it).

Jesus brought Lazarus back to life but not in a resurrected body, but in his same body. Lazarus later in his restored life died or else he would be here talking to us right now.

No one is is claiming that the little horn person will be resurrected. But restored back to life, just as Lazarus was restored back to life.

To the world, it will appear that his miraculously restoration back to life is that his claim of having achieved God-hood is true, and that he in his own power overcame death.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus demonstrated that He had power over death, and that He is the resurrection (the power of it).

Jesus brought Lazarus back to life but not in a resurrected body, but in his same body.

A resurrected body can be the same body.

Lazarus later in his restored life died or else he would be here talking to us right now.

Correct.

No one is is claiming that the little horn person will be resurrected. But restored back to life, just as Lazarus was restored back to life.

Being restored back to mortal life is what resurrection can mean. It's the same thing.

To the world, it will appear that his miraculously restoration back to life is that his claim of having achieved God-hood is true, and that he in his own power overcame death.

That doesn't come from any scripture though.

 

[Douggg]

A resurrected body can be the same body.

A resurrected body is not a restoration of the same body. There have numerous people who were clinically dead for a short time (not days) but came back to life - those were not resurrections.

Lazarus was the same age in his restored back to life body. He was recognized by everyone at the event as himself.

Jesus in His Resurrection did not appear to them who knew him before his death, as the same person.

______________________________________________________________

You are making your own straw man argument in order to tear it down. The little horn person will be assassinated. Dead for several days. And comes back to life, healed from what was a mortal wound, in his same body. Just as Lazarus came back to life by God's power in his same body, after several days of being dead.

Paul on the resurrection...

1Corinthians15...

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The mortally wounded/healed little horn person in Revelation 13 will not have a spiritual body. But his natural body when brought back to life.