 One or two little horns?

[AdB]

In Revelation 13, there is the kingdom of the beast person and the beast person himself.

The advancing of the little horn person to eventually becoming the beast person who stands up to make war against Jesus - is through a series of functional roles.

the little horn > the prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast

I know that is your theory but I haven't seen solid grounds to only regard the little horn as a person...

 

[Douggg]

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Verse 20 tells us which head the horns are in. It says in his head, therefore none of the other heads can be meant because they are all in the 4th beast's head. The 4th beast is the head the little horn emerges from.

The fourth beast in Daniel 7:20 has only one head.

If you want to say that one head is the Roman Empire of the end times, then okay.

 

[Douggg]

I know that is your theory but I haven't seen solid grounds to only regard the little horn as a person...

?????

You must be pushing for the little horn to be the papacy.

 

[AdB]

?????

You must be pushing for the little horn to be the papacy.

nope, I already told you I'm not working from a certain concept looking for scripture that will confirm my point of view...

 

[DavidPT]

The fourth beast in Daniel 7:20 has only one head.

If you want to say that one head is the Roman Empire of the end times, then okay.

Exactly, yet the beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads, and only one of it's heads has a deadly wound and is healed. Which head? Daniel 7 answers that for us. As to being the Roman empire of the endtimes, that I couldn't tell you.

 

[DavidPT]

The seven heads are 7 kings, not kingdoms. From Revelation 17:10.

The mortally wounded head on the beast in Revelation 13 is king 7 - the king yet to come in Revelation 17:10.

King 7 is the little horn person. When he is killed and comes back to life - it is as the beast of Revelation 17:11, the eighth king.

1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius Caesar
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero

7. the end times little horn person

8. the end times little horn person killed, and come back to life as the beast.

In Daniel 8:25 and Revelation 19:19 he stands up, to make war on Jesus.

If there are 7 kings and 7 heads, but only 4 kingdoms, it seems to me then, 4 of the 7 kings are involving one of the kingdoms, the other 3 are involving the other 3 kingdoms. I could be wrong of course, but that could be the logic. Haven't really thought much about it, basically something that has crossed my mind.

 

[Douggg]

Exactly, yet the beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads, and only one of it's heads has a deadly wound and is healed. Which head? Daniel 7 answers that for us. As to being the Roman empire of the endtimes, that I couldn't tell you.

Is is not until there are 42 months left that one of the heads on the beast has been mortally wounded and healed.

In Revelation 17, the vision of the beast a the time of John, no mortally wounded and healed head.

In Revelation 12, the vision of the beast with the 7 years to go (Revelation 12:6 + 12:14),
no mortally wound and healed head.

 

[Douggg]

If there are 7 kings and 7 heads, but only 4 kingdoms, it seems to me then, 4 of the 7 kings are involving one of the kingdoms, the other 3 are involving the other 3 kingdoms. I could be wrong of course, but that could be the logic. Haven't really thought much about it, basically something that has crossed my mind.

There is only one kingdom, the fourth kingdom of the end times that the little horn is of. The ten horns on the beast in Revelation 13 are the ten kings of the fourth kingdom in the end times.

In Daniel 7 - the end times Roman Empire, represented by the one head in verse 20, which the ten horns and little horn appear.

In Revelation 13 - the ten horns are the ten kings of the end times Roman Empire. And the one wounded and healed head - the little horn person.

_____________________________________________________

The three beasts making up the body of the Revelation 13 beast kingdom - is the territories - that the fourth kingdom of the end times will control.

 

[Douggg]

nope, I already told you I'm not working from a certain concept looking for scripture that will confirm my point of view...

In that case you are not looking that hard... when you say "but I haven't seen solid grounds to only regard the little horn as a person..." and don't give any explanation or reason for the little horn to be other than a person.

 

[Douggg]

If there are 7 kings and 7 heads, but only 4 kingdoms, it seems to me then, 4 of the 7 kings are involving one of the kingdoms, the other 3 are involving the other 3 kingdoms.

The ten kings and the little horn person are end times. They are on the one head of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7:20.

And in Daniel 7:23-24, they are of the fourth kingdom.

There is not but one kingdom involving the ten kings and the little horn in the end times.

 

[Douggg]

Exactly, yet the beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads, and only one of it's heads has a deadly wound and is healed. Which head? Daniel 7 answers that for us. As to being the Roman empire of the endtimes, that I couldn't tell you.

The heads on the Revelation 13 beast are not kingdoms, but kings.

 

[Zao is life]

I already did that in an earlier post, but I will do it again since that may have went over your head at the time.

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.


Verse 20 tells us which head the horns are in. It says in his head, therefore none of the other heads can be meant because they are all in the 4th beast's head. The 4th beast is the head the little horn emerges from.

I follow your thinking with regard to the 4th beast of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation 13, it being the 7th head.

But I'm battling to see how that actually ties in with what Daniel 8 says about the little horn coming up in the latter days of the four Grecian kingdoms. Does Antiochus escape mention in prophecy?

There just seems to me to be a kingdom missing in-between the little horn rising in the latter days of the four Grecian kingdoms and the 7th head of Revelation with its 10 kings/4th beast of Daniel 7/ten toes of Daniel 2.

To me the time for the rising of the little horn in Daniel 8 is not adding up with the time for the rising of the little horn in Daniel 7 (because of the words, "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have come to the full, a king, fierce of face, and skilled at intrigues, shall stand up.", Daniel 8:23).

Aside from that, I find it amazing that if the little horn of Daniel 8 = the little horn of Daniel 7 = the beast ascended from the abyss of Revelation 17 (who the 10 kings give their power & authority to), then poor old Antiochus doesn't even get a mention in prophecy,

 

[AdB]

In that case you are not looking that hard... when you say "but I haven't seen solid grounds to only regard the little horn as a person..." and don't give any explanation or reason for the little horn to be other than a person.

In Dan 2:38 Daniel says to Nebuchadnezzar “you are the head of gold”, thus indicating the head of the statue represents him as the king of Babylon. But in Dan 2:39-40 Daniel says that the chest & arms, the waist & thighs, and the legs represent kingdoms that will come after the Babylonian kingdom.
So the body parts of the statue can represent both a king or a kingdom.
The meaning of “king” can be any kind of a ruler or authority while the meaning of a “kingdom” can be any kind of realm or region of authority.

In Dan 2:41 it is stated that the feet of the statue represent a kingdom, but in Dan 2:44 the same feet of the statue are referred to as “in the days of those kings”. So again this body part of the statue can represent both a king or a kingdom.

In Dan 7:17 the four beasts are told to be representing kings, but in Dan 7:23-24 the same are told to be representing kingdoms. So here the beasts also can represent both kings or kingdoms.

And finally, in Dan 7:24 the 10 horns that arose out of the 4th beast are told to be representing kings,
the little horn is also stated to be representing a king (wə·’ā·ḥo·rān “another” referring to the 10 kings).
In Dan 8:21 both the goat and the initial large horn that arose out of it are told to be representing a king, yet the 4 horns that arose out of this initial large horn are told to be kingdoms and that these 4 horns arose out of a “nation” (mig·gō·w) which is equivalent to a kingdom, thus now stating that the goat and the initial large horn (also) represent a kingdom. In Dan 8:23 it is again stated that the 4 horns represent a kingdom (“their reign”) while the little horn is again stated to be representing a king.


So the texts show that the body parts of the statue in Dan 2, the 4 beasts in Dan 7, and the horns in Dan 7 and Dan 8 can represent both kings or kingdoms interchangeably. This is in line with the concept in ancient times that a king was the embodiment of the entire kingdom.
Regarding the little horn the texts only indicate this to represent a king, but because of the established interchangeability the text allows to also consider this little horn to represent a kingdom or an empire.

 

[Douggg]

And finally, in Dan 7:24 the 10 horns that arose out of the 4th beast are told to be representing kings,
the little horn is also stated to be representing a king (wə·’ā·ḥo·rān “another” referring to the 10 kings).

Yes, kings - not kingdoms! Kings are persons. Nothing you have wrote indicates that the little horn is anything but a king, a person.

So the texts show that the body parts of the statue in Dan 2, the 4 beasts in Dan 7, and the horns in Dan 7 and Dan 8 can represent both kings or kingdoms interchangeably. This is in line with the concept in ancient times that a king was the embodiment of the entire kingdom.

The little horn is not in Daniel 2. And is not said to be anything but a king in Daniel 7 and 8.

The little horn and the ten kings are of one kingdom, the fourth kingdom. The Roman Empire. Being out of the head of the fourth kingdom beast (which had only one head)- is that they are of the end times Roman Empire - the EU..

The ten kings in Daniel 7 are the ten toes in Daniel 2. In the days of those ten kings, will God setup HIs everlasting kingdom here on earth. The little horn king is not in Daniel 2.

_________________________________________________________________________

The little horn person will be a Jew, in order to become the Antichrist, anointed King of Israel coming in his own name. And also descended from the bloodline of the Julio-Claudians, the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

 

[AdB]

Yes, kings - not kingdoms! Kings are persons. Nothing you have wrote indicates that the little horn is anything but a king, a person.



The little horn is not in Daniel 2. And is not said to be anything but a king in Daniel 7 and 8.

The little horn and the ten kings are of one kingdom, the fourth kingdom. The Roman Empire. Being out of the head of the fourth kingdom beast (which had only one head)- is that they are of the end times Roman Empire - the EU..

The ten kings in Daniel 7 are the ten toes in Daniel 2. In the days of those ten kings, will God setup HIs everlasting kingdom here on earth. The little horn king is not in Daniel 2.

_________________________________________________________________________

The little horn person will be a Jew, in order to become the Antichrist, anointed King of Israel coming in his own name. And also descended from the bloodline of the Julio-Claudians, the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

The 4 horns show "horn" can represent both a king or a kingdom, the same logic should be allowed for the little horn.

 

[Douggg]

The 4 horns show "horn" can represent both a king or a kingdom, the same logic should be allowed for the little horn.

Are you talking about in Daniel 8 ? Those horns a the four generals/and the four breakup kingdoms they were over.

The little horn is never referred to in that manner.


Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.



Then in the explanation by Gabriel....


Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

____________________________________________________________________________

It should also be noted that it is also Gabriel who came to Daniel later in Daniel 9 to give more information about the end times, and the vision of the little horn Daniel had in Daniel 8.

The little horn is a person, a king, not a kingdom.

 

[AdB]

Are you talking about in Daniel 8 ? Those horns a the four generals/and the four breakup kingdoms they were over.

The little horn is never referred to in that manner.


Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.



Then in the explanation by Gabriel....


Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

____________________________________________________________________________

It should also be noted that it is also Gabriel who came to Daniel later in 9 to give more information about the end times, and the vision of the little horn Daniel had in Daniel 8.

The little horn is a person, a king, not a kingdom.

You seem to ignore my argument of logic

 

[Douggg]

You seem to ignore my argument of logic

Your argument disregards that Gabriel gave the explanation about the 4 horns as them being four kings over the four breakup kingdoms of Alexander's kingdom - in Daniel 8:22. History to us.

Gabriel does not give a similar explanation regarding the little horn. Daniel 8:23 through Daniel 8:26 is about the little horn - and him as a person only.

 

[AdB]

Your argument disregards that Gabriel gave the explanation about the 4 horns as them being four kings over the four breakup kingdoms of Alexander's kingdom - in Daniel 8:22. History to us.

Gabriel does not give a similar explanation regarding the little horn. Daniel 8:23 through Daniel 8:26 is about the little horn - and him as a person only.

Which I actually indicate, but I would argue the logic of the image of a horn to be allowed to represent a king or a kingdom interchangeable

 

[ewq1938]

Which I actually indicate, but I would argue the logic of the image of a horn to be allowed to represent a king or a kingdom interchangeable

A horn is a king and all kings have a kingdom.