Was Ceremonial Law Abolished?

[HARK!]

You can't have it both ways. If one law is fulfilled and we are no longer under it than it questions them all.

Wha..?

You aren't under the law unless you continue to transgress the law, thereby trampling the Son of YHWH.


(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

 

[HARK!]

"heaven and earth" is an idiom, saying that spiritual conditions will radically change both in spiritual and human realm.

No it's not. Yahshua gave no indication that this was an idiom.

He gave no interpretation; therefore it is to be taken at face value.

Let he who has eyes see.

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes the law is fulfilled in Christ. However fulfill simply means to make full - not abolished. The law points to Christ. The law is a tutor or guardian which leads us to Christ. Torah simply means "instruction." The job of the tutor is to instruct. That is what the law does; it instructs and leads us to Jesus. If the law did not exist anymore, than how would people know right from wrong and what constitutes as sin? How would people know what to repent of since the knowledge of what constitutes as sin is dictated by the law?
That is why Paul wrote "Do we then make void the law through faith? No, in no wise, to the contrary we establish the law" (Rom 3:31). No one is justified by the law but through the law comes knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20).
We must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I've never used the term abolished nor do I conflate it with fulfilled. The law is fulfilled not abolished.

 

[DamianWarS]

Wha..?

You aren't under the law unless you continue to transgress the law, thereby trampling the Son of YHWH.


(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

Is the sacraficial law fulfilled? It is that answer that is applied to the ceremonial as well.

 

[Oldmantook]

I've never used the term abolished nor do I conflate it with fulfilled. The law is fulfilled not abolished.

So in your conclusion, do you agree or disagree with my response to you?

 

[solid_core]

No it's not. Yahshua gave no indication that this was an idiom.

He gave no interpretation; therefore it is to be taken at face value.

Let he who has eyes see.

Yes, who has eyes can really see that everything changed after Christ, both in heaven and on earth. Where is the temple? Where are animal sacrifices? Where are some Jewish prophets? Where is levitical priesthood?

Its quite obvious that the Law of Moses cannot be practiced today, it was put away.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Was the law abolished? No, but I do not have to follow certain specific requirements to justified in the eyes of God or held in better estimation before him. This would include practices like kosher, animal sacrifice and circumcision (among others).

 

[Apex]

This is a loaded question - so I didn't take the poll. However, I will address the topic.

In Matthew 5:18 Jesus said, "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

I believe all this was accomplished in the first-century during the generation that heard this message. Yes, this means that I believe that "heaven and earth" passed away.

The terms "heaven and earth" are not to be taken literally though (same in Matthew 24:35). This is apocalyptic language meaning the old covenant - the entire Jewish religious economy (nation, priesthood, temple, etc.). This came to an end during the Jewish War between 66 and 73 CE.

Christians are not under the Mosaic Law or the old covenant. They are under the Law of Christ and the new covenant.

 

[HARK!]

Is the sacraficial law fulfilled? It is that answer that is applied to the ceremonial as well.

That's a really good question. You've given me a new perspective.

YHWH says that the Levitical Priesthood is forever; and that they will be making sacrifices in the kingdom to come.

He also says that all of his Moedim (feasts) are forever.

So what was fulfilled?

 

[HARK!]

Was the law abolished? No, but I do not have to follow certain specific requirements to justified in the eyes of God or held in better estimation before him. This would include practices like kosher, animal sacrifice and circumcision (among others).

Does scripture provide a list that's outside of every jot and tittle; or does everyone get to choose what's right in his own eyes?

 

[CharismaticLady]

You obviously didn't look very carefully. They're not all for sin; just as the sacrifices that Paul made weren't for sin. It's both Yahshua and the Levitical Priesthood. The duties assigned to the Levitical Priest hood are more general; but those assigned to the High Priest are specific. I'm pretty sure that the High Priest didn't make the sacrifices for Paul's Nazarite vow.

I looked to see if it may have been applied to something else, but it wasn't.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Does scripture provide a list that's outside of every jot and tittle; or does everyone get to choose what's right in his own eyes?

you must have missed the till all be fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled it.

 

[HARK!]

They are under the Law of Christ

The Law of Messiah is the law of YHWH. You aren't under it unless you're transgressing it.

Excerpt: UNDER THE LAW!

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

 

[HARK!]

I looked to see if it may have been applied to something else, but it wasn't.

Name ...... 7. New Moon sacrifices

Purpose ....... To begin a new month in the lunar calendar

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Law of Messiah is the law of YHWH. You aren't under it unless you're transgressing it.

Excerpt: UNDER THE LAW!

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Instead of Romans 3, you should be looking at the difference between Romans 7 and 8. See if you can determine what happened between Romans 7:13 and Romans 8:2-9

 

[CharismaticLady]

Name ...... 7. New Moon sacrifices

Purpose ....... To begin a new month in the lunar calendar

Huh?

 

[DamianWarS]

So in your conclusion, do you agree or disagree with my response to you?

Paul gets really technical and I certainly wouldn't disagree with him. he is quite ready to unpack all of this to the Romans where letters like 1 Cor is doesn't get anywhere close to this depth (2 Cor doesn't even mention law)

I have to think Paul spoke to audiences different. That doesn't change the truth but I think we need to be more careful when we mix his letters like they are all sequels to each other. Each has a unique context applied to the first intended audience and Paul doesn't feel it important to go into detail about law wiith all his letters yet with others he was quite passionate about it.

the law's function is as you said a tutor (and as scripture tells us this, as Paul tells us this) however in practice the gospel often comes first as the law is meaningless to so many. It still stands as a bohemoth of meaning that points to Christ but often we understand the gospel ignorant of the role of the law.

So how do people know what is right and wrong? That answer is typically not "torah". An argument could be said that it is the torah written in our hearts, but then it still is not articulated this way.

Paul tells us his doctrinal thesis of the role of the law in the new covenant and he is the leading expert with a PhD. He's right, but it is hard to grasp even today and Peter affirms this saying "[Paul's] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." This is still a problem today. I think when we think of the role of law we too often jump to Romans to define it but I think it would be worthy of a study to define the role of law in the new covenant without using Romans. We could endlessly debate Romans here and it's meaning to the law, and this is what happens all the time at CF. I'm over it and I enjoy Romans as much as the next guy but I'm tired of it being used irresponsibly.

 

[HARK!]

you must have missed the till all be fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled it.

Nope. Yahshua used two different words for a reason. He meant what he said; not what lawless translators wished he had said.


(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.


G4137 πληρωσαι
FILL, fulFILL, fill full, complete


(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

G1096 γενηται
BECOME, come to be, come into being, occur

 

[HARK!]

Huh?

THE LEVITICAL OFFERINGS and SACRIFICES

Sorry, I can't look at the chart for you. I don't know how I can make it any more clear.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@HARK The point is the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin, so why must it be continued, when Jesus is already "the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 John 2:2

That would include Israel, so a feast that includes sacrifice is questionable that it is meant for anytime past the crucifixion.