Where was the Sabbath Abolished?

[Leaf473]

Do you use clay pots and drinking vessels that absorb anything that's in the water placed it them?

We often use our crock pot. The passage doesn't say that it applies only to pots that are permeable to liquids, that I can see.

This is just plain common sense that this has passed away as technology has increased. The situation created the need for the law. Just like the point in history required a symbolic worship service to point forward to Jesus.

My point exactly, it has passed away.

This is so obvious I find it astounding that so many Christians act as if they are oblivious to it.

It isn't an issue for most Christians. It becomes an issue if people say that they keep the letters of the law.

I think what you're alluding to is the principle of that law. And that's cool, that's what I keep, too: the principles of all of the law of Moses.

 

[Gary K]

We often use our crock pot. The passage doesn't say that it applies only to pots that are permeable to liquids, that I can see.


My point exactly, it has passed away.


It isn't an issue for most Christians. It becomes an issue if people say that they keep the letters of the law.

I think what you're alluding to is the principle of that law. And that's cool, that's what I keep, too: the principles of all of the law of Moses.

***shakes head in wonder***

We have a crock pot too. It's made out of ceramic and is kiln fired and the surface is sealed. It's not a hand turned, unsealed, clay dish like the cooking vessels of thousands of years ago.

 

[Dan Perez]

If the Sabbath was abolished, there would be many verses and much text to show it, yet there is none. The apostles would have had many discussions and the councils at Jerusalem would have written at least one with a determination of it being abolished and yet there is nothing. Paul exhorts in Corinthians that Circumcision is nothing in comparison to the Ten Commandments.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Since there are more than forty verses and up to ten verses at a time clearly stating that Circumcision of the flesh is a yoke of bondage and abolished, how many scriptures would you expect stating the Sabbath was abolished or changed to Sunday? Perhaps seventy or more? The fact is there is not even one verse that says, 'The Sabbath is abolished' or is now Sunday.

Acts 15:1-19 The Council at Jerusalem​

1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
18 things known from long ago.[c]
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

The Ten Commandments are the only thing that God personally spoke and then personally etched His Law into stone tablets with His own finger. Yet there is not one clear scripture or commandment from Christ or even a direction from a apostle or as you can see from the Jerusalem Council to abolish the Sabbath anywhere in scripture, just a couple of erroneous assumptions. One of God's Commandments supposedly changes or is abolished and we do not have even one clear verse. Why not? The answer is simple. It was never abolished or changed to Sunday by the authority of God so no such scripture exists..

Really , that there is NONE ??

In Col 2:14 says , Having blotted out the HANDWRITTING of the Ordinances against US , which was contrary to us , and He ( Christ ) has Taken it out of sight , having nailed to the Cross .

Verse 16 says , Therefore , do not let ANYONE Judge you in eating , or in drinking or in respect of a Feast Day or a New Moon or SABBATHS .

dan p

 

[Leaf473]

***shakes head in wonder***

We have a crock pot too. It's made out of ceramic and is kiln fired and the surface is sealed. It's not a hand turned, unsealed, clay dish like the cooking vessels of thousands of years ago.

There's nothing in the letter of the instruction that says it's different if it has been sealed.

Again, I believe you are dealing with the principle of the instruction. Are you thinking it has to do with the transference of germs?

In a similar way, most seventh day observers deal with the principle of the instruction about tassels, but not the letter.

 

[pasifika]

Day by day, I get stronger in the Lord and I keep asking for His help and He brings me along on the path.

hi, what i can understand from your post is that you have not yet be able to keep the OC law including the 10 commandments, is it correct?

 

[Gary K]

There's nothing in the letter of the instruction that says it's different if it has been sealed.

Again, I believe you are dealing with the principle of the instruction. Are you thinking it has to do with the transference of germs?

In a similar way, most seventh day observers deal with the principle of the instruction about tassels, but not the letter.

Of course it all about dealing with diseases that are communicable. That's not difficult to figure out.

How is it you think you can deal the principal of a concept and not actually deal with/ignore the concept? Say the concept is about loving your neighbor and you hate your neighbor.

 

[Leaf473]

Of course it all about dealing with diseases that are communicable. That's not difficult to figure out.

It's a common human opinion, but it's not stated in the text.

How is it you think you can deal the principal of a concept...

Hang on there, Gary

It's the principle of the instruction that I believe we are to follow. "Principle" and "concept" would be largely synonymous in most usages imo.

But I don't think we are to follow the letter of the law.

...and not actually deal with/ignore the concept?

Say the concept is about loving your neighbor and you hate your neighbor.

The principle of loving your neighbor would be to love those you come in contact with. That's the story of the Good Samaritan.

The actual letters of that instruction would mean just the people near you.

In the case of that instruction, there's a lot of overlap of the principle with the letters.

In the case of the tassels instruction, most people - including you and me, I believe - keep the principle of remembering God's direction and how Jesus lived. They don't put literal tassels on their clothes.

 

[Gary K]

It's a common human opinion, but it's not stated in the text.


Hang on there, Gary

It's the principle of the instruction that I believe we are to follow. "Principle" and "concept" would be largely synonymous in most usages imo.

But I don't think we are to follow the letter of the law.



The principle of loving your neighbor would be to love those you come in contact with. That's the story of the Good Samaritan.

The actual letters of that instruction would mean just the people near you.

In the case of that instruction, there's a lot of overlap of the principle with the letters.

In the case of the tassels instruction, most people - including you and me, I believe - keep the principle of remembering God's direction and how Jesus lived. They don't put literal tassels on their clothes.

So you are once again dismissing implied reasoning as logical and true.

Once again how do you dismiss the letter of the law that is based in love as when we love others as ourselves will we break any of the last six commandments?

 

[daq]

It's a common human opinion, but it's not stated in the text.


Hang on there, Gary

It's the principle of the instruction that I believe we are to follow. "Principle" and "concept" would be largely synonymous in most usages imo.

But I don't think we are to follow the letter of the law.



The principle of loving your neighbor would be to love those you come in contact with. That's the story of the Good Samaritan.

The actual letters of that instruction would mean just the people near you.

In the case of that instruction, there's a lot of overlap of the principle with the letters.

In the case of the tassels instruction, most people - including you and me, I believe - keep the principle of remembering God's direction and how Jesus lived. They don't put literal tassels on their clothes.

You appear to be well on your way to understanding the "principle" way.

Moreover there are other passages similar to the tassels or tzitzit, one example being the four passages which are written and placed inside tefillin and worn on the forehead and the arm/hand. The Torah is to be internalized: the flesh profits nothing in this regard, just as in physical-outward circumcision of the flesh, and those seeing such things as outward generally tend to side with the outward over the spiritual internalization, (preferring the one while neglecting the other). For example Gary said the other day that because he is a vegetarian he follows the dietary laws, (I follow the dietary laws. I'm a vegetarian who eats a lot of vegan food), which he and other SDA's apparently also call "health laws", and by that no doubt they mean physical health. And yet not long before that statement another of his fellow SDA's accused me of spiritualizing away the Torah, (and he was there to gladly agree), because of my understanding of the sacrifices based on the Testimony of the Master from Mark 9:43-49 and other statements, teachings, parables, and passages not only from the Testimony of the Master but also from the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. Thus, by reading and understanding the Torah as outward and physical in the natural minded Pharisee way, they actually nullify the spiritual understanding in many circumstances while thinking themselves to be observing the commandments. However those who do not do as they do may plainly see the eagle and raven they have been consuming in their outward and natural minded doctrines, and also in their debate tactics, and they cannot stand it.

 

[Leaf473]

So you are once again dismissing implied reasoning as logical and true.

No, I agree that there is some relationship between health and some of the laws about clean and unclean animals.

That doesn't mean that all laws about clean and unclean are related to health or avoiding disease.

Other people have looked into the situation very carefully and concluded the same thing:
"The kosher laws are not premised on bodily health at all."

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2837509/jewish/Not-Based-on-Physical-Health.htm

Once again how do you dismiss the letter of the law that is based in love as when we love others as ourselves will we break any of the last six commandments?

By adhering to the principle of loving our neighbors as ourselves. The Ten Commandments have wisdom in them, sure... As does the rest of the law of Moses.

I'm pretty sure you already know how to do this, since you keep the principle of the tassels commandment but not the letter, it sounds like

 

[Gary K]

No, I agree that there is some relationship between health and some of the laws about clean and unclean animals.

That doesn't mean that all laws about clean and unclean are related to health or avoiding disease.

Other people have looked into the situation very carefully and concluded the same thing:
"The kosher laws are not premised on bodily health at all."

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2837509/jewish/Not-Based-on-Physical-Health.htm

By adhering to the principle of loving our neighbors as ourselves. The Ten Commandments have wisdom in them, sure... As does the rest of the law of Moses.

I'm pretty sure you already know how to do this, since you keep the principle of the tassels commandment but not the letter, it sounds like

I don't care what "other people" have to say. I only care about what God has said about it. He is the authority on all spiritual issues and when it is in the Bible it is a spiritual issue.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't care what "other people" have to say.

That's fine. It was an example of other people researching the situation and coming to a different opinion.

I only care about what God has said about it.

Amen.

He is the authority on all spiritual issues...

Amen again.

...and when it is in the Bible it is a spiritual issue.

There is an instruction in the Bible about putting tassels on our clothes. If you wish, please talk about how you keep that instruction

 

[Gary K]

That's fine. It was an example of other people researching the situation and coming to a different opinion.


Amen.


Amen again.


There is an instruction in the Bible about putting tassels on our clothes. If you wish, please talk about how you keep that instruction

I don't. You already know that.

I guess you think I'm a Pharisee,

Matthew 23:1 THEN spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Why would a law meant to be an object lesson continue after the life and death of Jesus? Do you smear blood on your door posts and wear clothes of mixed wool and linen as you seem to think object lessons need to be continued after their need has passed? Show me from scripture where the Jerusalem council said Gentiles must perpetually follow these commands

 

[Leaf473]

I don't. You already know that.

I didn't think you put physical tassels on your clothes. But at least one seventh day observer that I've met here feels that they keep that instruction spiritually or metaphorically.

I guess you think I'm a Pharisee,

Matthew 23:1 THEN spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

No, I don't think you're a Pharisee.

Why would a law meant to be an object lesson continue after the life and death of Jesus?

Because all of God's laws are forever

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 119:44 - New American Standard Bible

So I will keep Your Law continually, Forever and ever.

www.biblegateway.com

Do you smear blood on your door posts and wear clothes of mixed wool and linen as you seem to think object lessons need to be continued after their need has passed?

Sure, metaphorically

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 5:7 - New American Standard Bible

Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

www.biblegateway.com

Also, I'm assuming you mean clothes not made of wool and linen mixed together.

Show me from scripture where the Jerusalem council said Gentiles must perpetually follow these commands

I think the council at Jerusalem decided that the gentiles didn't have to follow any of the law of Moses in a physical, literal sense.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 15:5 - New International Reader's Version

Some of the believers were Pharisees. They stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised. They must obey the law of Moses.”

www.biblegateway.com

My impression is that the council decided against what some of the believers were saying in that passage.

 

[Leaf473]

You know, @Gary K my man (and anyone else reading) , big picture, I want to be consistent in dealing with the law. If I keep one part metaphorically or spiritually, then I want to keep it all metaphorically or spiritually.

Or if I follow one part to the letter, then I want to do the same with all of the parts.

 

[Gary K]

I didn't think you put physical tassels on your clothes. But at least one seventh day observer that I've met here feels that they keep that instruction spiritually or metaphorically.


No, I don't think you're a Pharisee.


Because all of God's laws are forever

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 119:44 - New American Standard Bible

So I will keep Your Law continually, Forever and ever.

www.biblegateway.com

Sure, metaphorically

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 5:7 - New American Standard Bible

Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

www.biblegateway.com

Also, I'm assuming you mean clothes not made of wool and linen mixed together.


I think the council at Jerusalem decided that the gentiles didn't have to follow any of the law of Moses in a physical, literal sense.

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 15:5 - New International Reader's Version

Some of the believers were Pharisees. They stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised. They must obey the law of Moses.”

www.biblegateway.com

My impression is that the council decided against what some of the believers were saying in that passage.

The 10 commandments are God's eternal law, That's why He wrote them on stone. the rest were written on animal skins or something similar demonstrating their temporary nature.

Also the 10 commandments were put under the mercy seat and none of those transcribed were. They were placed in a pocket in the side of the ark. Symbolizing they were not covered by God's mercy.

Deuteronomy 31: 24 ¶ And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

 

[Leaf473]

The 10 commandments are God's eternal law, That's why He wrote them on stone. the rest were written on animal skins or something similar demonstrating their temporary nature.

Also the 10 commandments were put under the mercy seat and none of those transcribed were. They were placed in a pocket in the side of the ark. Symbolizing they were not covered by God's mercy.

Deuteronomy 31: 24 ¶ And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are the only eternal laws that God has given?

Only the Ten Commandments are covered by God's mercy, laws about clean and unclean animals are not covered?

Am I understanding you right so far?

 

[Gary K]

Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are the only eternal laws that God has given?

Only the Ten Commandments are covered by God's mercy, laws about clean and unclean animals are not covered?

Am I understanding you right so far?

Yes. However the deliberate destruction of our health by bad eating habits has it's own natural consequences. It's why cancer rates and multiple diseases have grown tremendously since Jesus's day. It's no different morally than committing suicide as it's committing slow very painful suicide by eating.

I have major issues health issues caused by my rebellion against God's health laws. I have peripheral neuropathy in my legs, feet, arms and hands. My legs are very weak as when the nerves in your legs die your muscles atrophy and lose their strength. Because I have that if I fall I have to have two men help me up. I fell this winter on the ice and couldn't get back on my feet. I had to crawl about thirty yards on the ice before a neighbor saw me and came over with his adult son to get me back on my feet. It's extremely embarrassing. I also have neuropathy in my arms and hands. They are also very weak and my hands and feet are always cold from poor circulation. It also becomes very painful to sit on a hard chair or bench as my butt cheek muscles are so weak they don't cushion my bones from the hard surface.

I have had other very bad health consequences from my bad eating habits. I had a stroke a couple of years ago and it left my left hand partially paralyzed. That makes typing a major pain as it's hunt and peck with my left hand. I'm down to less than double digit typing speed from 60 wpm with only a couple of mistakes. The number of typos is off the charts bad.

I also have kidney issues to the point my kidneys will suddenly shut down for no apparent reason from having high blood pressure from untreated high flood pressure for decades from meat eating. I have to go to a doctor and pay big money for a diuretic powerful enough to restart my kidneys. The sign this is happening is severe pain in my back that lasts a minute or do that hurts so badly I can barely keep from screaming.

I don't recommend violating God's health laws as the consequences are severe. I asked my heavenly Father a year or so ago to heal my diabetes and He did. but the consequences of my disobedience remain.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. However the deliberate destruction of our health by bad eating habits has it's own natural consequences. It's why cancer rates and multiple diseases have grown tremendously since Jesus's day. It's no different morally than committing suicide as it's committing slow very painful suicide by eating.

I have major issues health issues caused by my rebellion against God's health laws. I have peripheral neuropathy in my legs, feet, arms and hands. My legs are very weak as when the nerves in your legs die your muscles atrophy and lose their strength. Because I have that if I fall I have to have two men help me up. I fell this winter on the ice and couldn't get back on my feet. I had to crawl about thirty yards on the ice before a neighbor saw me and came over with his adult son to get me back on my feet. It's extremely embarrassing. I also have neuropathy in my arms and hands. They are also very weak and my hands and feet are always cold from poor circulation. It also becomes very painful to sit on a hard chair or bench as my butt cheek muscles are so weak they don't cushion my bones from the hard surface.

I have had other very bad health consequences from my bad eating habits. I had a stroke a couple of years ago and it left my left hand partially paralyzed. That makes typing a major pain as it's hunt and peck with my left hand. I'm down to less than double digit typing speed from 60 wpm with only a couple of mistakes. The number of typos is off the charts bad.

I also have kidney issues to the point my kidneys will suddenly shut down for no apparent reason from having high blood pressure from untreated high flood pressure for decades from meat eating. I have to go to a doctor and pay big money for a diuretic powerful enough to restart my kidneys. The sign this is happening is severe pain in my back that lasts a minute or do that hurts so badly I can barely keep from screaming.

I don't recommend violating God's health laws as the consequences are severe. I asked my heavenly Father a year or so ago to heal my diabetes and He did. but the consequences of my disobedience remain.

prayers for your health situation

So... only The Ten Commandments are eternal... would that mean that the health laws are more like health suggestions? recommendations? Set them aside at your own risk?

 

[Gary K]

prayers for your health situation

So... only The Ten Commandments are eternal... would that mean that the health laws are more like health suggestions? recommendations? Set them aside at your own risk?

No. There are severe consequences for not following them. A suggestion would not have these kinds of consequences.