Question for rapture people

[BABerean2]

Does not say in Daniel 9:27....

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the NEW covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It also does not say "Old" covenant, as you claim.

Is Daniel chapter 9 the timeline of the Messiah?

What covenant did the Messiah fulfill at Calvary, based on His words in Matthew 26:28?


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Do you really believe the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

At least I am in agreement with the 1599 Geneva Bible.
You are in agreement with you...



.

 

[Douggg]

It also does not say "Old" covenant, as you claim.

I am not claiming "old" covenant is in text.

From the text of Daniel 9, which covenant is being referred to here? Daniel was not referring to it as the "old" covenant.

10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years is contained in the law of Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

 

[Marilyn C]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Hi Woof,
The Prophet Zechariah was given a wonderful revelation of the Lord on His throne.

`He shall sit and rule on His throne; so he shall be a priest on His throne,..` (Zech. 6: 13)

The Lord is a KingPriest. He holds both offices. In Israel those offices were/are separate. The Lord`s throne is in the highest heavens where He shall rule and reign.

Then the Prophet Daniel had a vision of the Lord on His throne and the court sitting in judgment also.

`The court shall be seated and they shall take away his dominion...` (Dan. 7: 26)

This is speaking of the Body of Christ, the court which shall judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) The Body of Christ is also told that they would be Kingriests and rule and reign with Christ on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

So how does the Body of Christ go to the Lord`s throne in the third heaven? The Lord will come for them when it is a mature Body, (Eph, 4: 13) and take His Body to its eternal setting in glory.

Marilyn.

 

[DavidPT]

2 Peter3:10 will happen at over a thousand years later, but the time length of a day in God's view is as a thousand years, in the context of what Peter said.

Even though I am Premil, I disagree with this.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


So what is your position then? A gap after this part----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night? Or, the entire verse is meaning a thousand plus years post the 2nd coming? Either way I don't see being a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Douggg]

Even though I am Premil, I disagree with this.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


So what is your position then? A gap after this part----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night? Or, the entire verse is meaning a thousand plus years post the 2nd coming? Either way I don't see being a reasonable conclusion.

The Day of Lord lasts for eternity, there is no end. "in the which" the heaven and earth will pass away. At certain points, certain event happen, ultimately to lead to eternity. It all starts with the beginning of the Day of the Lord.


70th week begins with the confirming of the covenant.

Beginning of the Day of the Lord - approximately 3 years 3 months into the 7 years, with the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

From that point to Jesus's Return, a time of testing of all on the earth, and the dismantling of Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great.

Jesus returns to end the great tribulation and conclude the 70th week.

Then the millennial rule of Christ. The thousand years as a day. The 3 years 9 months (triggered by the ToD act) that will precede the thousand years is minuscule to the thousand years. The beginning of Peter's Day of the Lord, as a thousand years is a day, still begins with that like a thief in the night unexpected action by the Antichrist.

At the end of the thousand years, one last attempt by Satan, which quickly is ended.

The destruction of this present heaven and earth

The Great White Throne judgment.

Then eternity.

 

[DavidPT]

The Day of Lord lasts for eternity, there is no end. "in which" the heaven and earth will pass away.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

It might be debatable if this is even meaning this same DOTL we are discussing, but let's assume it is meaning this same DOTL we are discussing. But even if it's not the same DOTL in question, this passage still gives us a good indication as to what to expect during such a day as that, so unless one is on God's team, it doesn't look like the ones who are not on His team, that they are going to find anything pleasant about it. And then if this day is eternal on top of that, what kind of eternity would that be if it be darkness, and not light, even very dark, and no brightness in it?

 

[Douggg]

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

It might be debatable if this is even meaning this same DOTL we are discussing, but let's assume it is meaning this same DOTL we are discussing. But even if it's not the same DOTL in question, this passage still gives us a good indication as to what to expect during such a day as that, so unless one is on God's team, it doesn't look like the ones who are not on His team, that they are going to find anything pleasant about it. And then if this day is eternal on top of that, what kind of eternity would that be if it be darkness, and not light, even very dark, and no brightness in it?

David, The Day of the Lord is eternal, the beginning years of it is not, only last approximately 3 years 9 months.

3years 3 months (to ToD act) + 3 years 9 months = 7 years. 3 years 9 months is the beginning years - the time of trouble that is in Amos.

They were desiring the Day of the Lord because it would be a time of blessings. But they were unaware that the beginning years of the Day of the Lord would be a time of extreme difficulty - which is the great tribulation. Their problems during the beginning years of the Day of the Lord come upon them like a thief in the night because they rejected Jesus as the messiah, and embraced the Antichrist as the messiah - until he reveals himself to be the man of sin, not the messiah.

 

[BABerean2]

Their problems during the beginning years of the Day of the Lord come upon them like a thief in the night because they rejected Jesus as the messiah, and embraced the Antichrist as the messiah - until he reveals himself to be the man of sin, not the messiah.

Christians are already accepting antichrist, by letting those who reject Christ speak from the pulpits of their churches, and on their television programs.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

.

 

[iamlamad]

To first get things right, you have to admit that you could be wrong. Sadly, some are unwilling to come off their sacred cows despite what's right in front of their faces. They would rather let others tell them falsehood, and even in some cases pay thousands of dollars to hear it. Yeah, I'm saying religious uni and college is a joke. They are part of the reason why an idea of the rapture (as a tradition of men) has and is continuing to be taught to folks who would rather learn from people rather than spend time cultivating time with the Holy Spirit and letting teach them. But look, I really didn't come in here to debate. I'm honestly desiring to see if anyone could supply OT references of a rapture. I'm not intending to change anyone mind. I was once a rapture believer. God had to change that.

Are you willing to admit that you too could be wrong, and that you should have stayed with pretrib?

 

[keras]

It looks like you and I would be on the same page then, maybe. Even though I might define it as a rapture, I'm not saying anyone is taken to heaven or anything. I just basically see it as gathering together of everyone into the same place in the air, then proceeding to the destination on the earth, which I assume would be in the middle east, likely Jerusalem.

Why make assumptions?
Zephaniah 14:3 plainly states that Jesus will Return to Jerusalem, onto the Mt of Olives. He will gather His faithful people to Him; there. Matthew 24:31

As for anyone being 'raptured to heaven'; Jesus prayed to the Father that He NOT remove His people from the world, but to keep them from the evil one; John 17:15, just as we pray in the Lord's prayer....deliver us from evil.....
And to make out this only applied to the disciples, is a very bad and quite wrong assertion as Jesus goes on to say: It is not for these alone [the disciples] that I pray, but for all who through their words [and deeds] put their faith in Me. John 17:20

The rapture has to take place before then.

The 2Thessalonians2:4 event precedes Jesus's return and those signs in the sun, moon, stars.

It also precedes the heaven and earth being destroyed.

It also precedes the gathering at Armageddon.

That should make it very simplified. And I am sure that once you think it through you will agree with me.

I for one, will never agree with your kind of fanciful notions.

Until you provide proof scriptures of a 'rapture to heaven' of anyone other than Elijah, Jesus and the 2 Witneses, then you are just a promoter of false theories.

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

It means a transportation to another location on earth, as Matthew 24:31 says.
Jesus said that it was impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13

How are we transported? And will those around us know?

 

[DavidPT]

/NM

 

[DavidPT]

Zephaniah 14:3 plainly states that Jesus will Return to Jerusalem, onto the Mt of Olives. He will gather His faithful people to Him; there. Matthew 24:31

According to Zechariah 14 though, they would already be with Him.


Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Obviously, in order to fulfill what is underlined in verse 4, it first requires the fulfilling of what I have underlined in verse 5. I'm pretty certain the LORD my God in verse 5 is meaning the same one in verse 4. And according to verse 5, the text indicates as they are closing in on their destination, the saints are already with Him. So how did they end up being already with Him before they even arrive? The meeting in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 of course.

 

[keras]

How are we transported? And will those around us know?

The same as Philip was. Acts 8:39
As we Christians won't be a part of the One World Govt, or take the 'mark of the beast', we will be all together; most of us in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14

This I will assure you of; at no time do we get taken to heaven, that is impossible and will never happen. After the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, comes to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7

According to Zechariah 14 though, they would already be with Him.


Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Obviously, in order to fulfill what is underlined in verse 4, it first requires the fulfilling of what I have underlined in verse 5. I'm pretty certain the LORD my God in verse 5 is meaning the same one in verse 4. And according to verse 5, the text indicates as they are closing in on their destination, the saints are already with Him. So how did they end up being already with Him before they even arrive? The meeting in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 of course.

Good questions!
It will be the few Christians who are still alive in Jerusalem, who must flee when Jesus Returns. The ones who had to remain as per Revelation 12:17. Most of them will be martyred, as will the 2 Witnesses, and Jesus will bring their souls back with Him and resurrect them to mortal life. Revelation 20:4
Those who were taken to the place of safety and maybe other faithful Christians elsewhere, for the 1260 days of Satans rule and the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will be gathered as the sequence in Matthew 24:29-31 clearly states.
Armageddon; the destruction of Satans armies, happens at the 7th Bowl, it is actually all over before Jesus appears to His people. Revelation 16:17-18
Note that the armies are already dead in Revelation 19:17

Jesus does not Return accompanied by the Saints. My REBible says; with His holy ones and Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14 both make it quite clear that it is the angel army of heaven.
Rapture to heaven believers like to make out that 'hagios', the Greek word used there, means 'saints', namely themselves, but that is wrong as it means 'holy ones' which is either angels or human saints. Another false tenet of that wrong belief.

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

The same as Philip was. Acts 8:39
As we Christians won't be a part of the One World Govt, or take the 'mark of the beast', we will be all together; most of us in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14

Two more questions: 1) will these Christians have their new body? And if not, will the Christians who are unwell be healed during this time?

2) Are we not so close to these times now?

*Edit: one more: will this be a time of many signs, prophesies, and healings?

 

[DavidPT]

Good questions!
It will be the few Christians who are still alive in Jerusalem, who must flee when Jesus Returns. The ones who had to remain as per Revelation 12:17. Most of them will be martyred, as will the 2 Witnesses, and Jesus will bring their souls back with Him and resurrect them to mortal life. Revelation 20:4
Those who were taken to the place of safety and maybe other faithful Christians elsewhere, for the 1260 days of Satans rule and the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will be gathered as the sequence in Matthew 24:29-31 clearly states.
Armageddon; the destruction of Satans armies, happens at the 7th Bowl, it is actually all over before Jesus appears to His people. Revelation 16:17-18
Note that the armies are already dead in Revelation 19:17

Jesus does not Return accompanied by the Saints. My REBible says; with His holy ones and Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14 both make it quite clear that it is the angel army of heaven.
Rapture to heaven believers like to make out that 'hagios', the Greek word used there, means 'saints', namely themselves, but that is wrong as it means 'holy ones' which is both angels or human saints. Another false tenet of that wrong belief.

The Hebrew word for saints in Zechariah 14:5 is qadowsh.


Psalms 16:3 But to the saints(qadowsh) that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

So you think saints are meaning angels here then?

Psalms 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints(qadowsh): for there is no want to them that fear him.


So you think saints are meaning angels here then?


Psalms 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint(qadowsh) of the LORD.


So you think Aaron was an angel then?



I'm not suggesting (qadowsh) can never mean angels. Yet it appears you might be suggesting it can never mean saints since you are adamant that it doesn't mean saints in Zechariah 14:5, but means angels instead.

Take note of something in the following passages though.

Jude 1:6 And the angels(aggelos) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(hagios)


Did you see that? Obviously in verse 6 angels are meant, and not saints. Obviously as well, in verse 14 saints are meant and not angels, otherwise verse 14 would have said (aggelos) rather than (hagios).

Clearly, this in Zechariah 14:5---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee---is referring to this in Jude 1:14---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints---and that Jude 1 clearly and undeniably proves saints, not angels, are meant in Zechariah 14:5.

 

[keras]

The Hebrew word for saints in Zechariah 14:5 is qadowsh.


Psalms 16:3 But to the saints(qadowsh) that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

So you think saints are meaning angels here then?

Psalms 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints(qadowsh): for there is no want to them that fear him.


So you think saints are meaning angels here then?


Psalms 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint(qadowsh) of the LORD.


So you think Aaron was an angel then?



I'm not suggesting (qadowsh) can never mean angels. Yet it appears you might be suggesting it can never mean saints since you are adamant that it doesn't mean saints in Zechariah 14:5, but means angels instead.

Take note of something in the following passages though.

Jude 1:6 And the angels(aggelos) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(hagios)


Did you see that? Obviously in verse 6 angels are meant, and not saints. Obviously as well, in verse 14 saints are meant and not angels, otherwise verse 14 would have said (aggelos) rather than (hagios).

Clearly, this in Zechariah 14:5---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee---is referring to this in Jude 1:14---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints---and that Jude 1 clearly and undeniably proves saints, not angels, are meant in Zechariah 14:5.

But to say that Jesus Returns with humans, is a contradiction of Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14. Verses you conveniently ignore. So where the Bible is unclear, as in Zechariah and Jude, then we must apply the meaning that is plainly stated.

If you believe it is humans who Return with Jesus, then you must provide a Bible verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven before the Return.
Any assumptions, suppositions, conjecture or plain guesswork is rejected.

 

[keras]

Two more questions: 1) will these Christians have their new body? And if not, will the Christians who are unwell be healed during this time?

2) Are we not so close to these times now?

*Edit: one more: will this be a time of many signs, prophesies, and healings?

1/ No. Immortality is not given until the Book of Life is opened, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
The Bible says is we will live longer during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20
But before that, we Christians will live in all of the holy Land:
Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the wilderness be glad, the desert rejoice and flower. The Land will again show the glory of Lebanon, Carmel and Sharon, these will see the glory of the Lord.
Strengthen yourselves, say to those with fearful hearts- be strong. For your God comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. [Against your enemies]

Then the blind will see, the deaf hear, all disabilities cured. Water will flow in the desert, where jackals once roamed.
A highway will appear – called the way of Holiness. No unclean person will pass on it. Wicked fools cannot trespass on it. No dangerous beast will come there. But, by that way the Lords redeemed will return.

The Lords people, set free; will migrate to, [Psalms 107] and enter the Land with shouts of joy and triumph. Gladness and joy will come upon them –
All suffering and sorrow will flee away.

2/ we are now very close to the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, which will commence all the things prophesied leading up to Jesus Return.

 

[HopeInJesusOnly]

The Lords people, set free; will migrate to, [Psalms 107] and enter the Land with shouts of joy and triumph. Gladness and joy will come upon them –
All suffering and sorrow will flee away.

Sorry....I'm back. You are so knowledgeable I am stealing all your time.

Do you think you can lose your spot? As in, can you be tricked or deceived and give up your "ticket" so to speak, or will God get you there, regardless, and it's not based on you?

*Addition: I am of the mindset God has already separated the wheat from the tares.

 

[keras]

Sorry....I'm back. You are so knowledgeable I am stealing all your time.

Do you think you can lose your spot? As in, can you be tricked or deceived and give up your "ticket" so to speak, or will God get you there, regardless, and it's not based on you?

*Addition: I am of the mindset God has already separated the wheat from the tares.

That's OK, as a retired man I have time to discuss issues with genuine seekers.
I have intensively studied the Prophetic Word and have many free articles on that subject on my logostelos website.

Yes; even the elect can be deceived, Matthew 24:6 & 24.
There will be a 'falling away' as Paul says, as people whose faith is tested to the death, fail to trust the Lord for His protection and His promise of resurrection and eternal life. Matthew 24:13

The 'tares' remain with us. The Day of the Lord's wrath will be the separation. Isaiah 66:17, Revelation 6:12-17, 14:14-20