Ashes or Everlasting Fire

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Burning the bodies to ashes in the OT days, did not also
burn the soul of the person to ashes. It went on to be tormented
in hell until the day of the resurrection of the unjust - those that died
in their sins.

At the end of Isaiah chapter 66, we find carcasses in the lake of fire
-the place where the worm doesn't die, and this fire - never goes out.
their fire

God will be angry with the died in their sins people -for eternity.
This is why they will get punished for ever -for eternity.
As in the OT, as long as God is angry - the fire still burns - the
torment still is taking place, the arm of the LORD is stretched out
still!

Isaiah 34 seems to be showing that the land of Idumea/Edom
is going to become the lake of fire. Malachi 1 tells how God
will be angry with the people there -for ever.

God never will give mercy to the wicked in the lake of fire. He
only has made a covenant to the sons of David - the saints - the
faithful -like Abraham.

I will remember My covenant.
Because I loved your fathers, now you.

Isaiah 66 and Daniel 12 tell that the wicked dead will be abhorred
by onlookers for - everlasting contempt.
from sabbath to sabbath
new moon to new moon

one group - the saints
the other - the ones that their worm doesn't die

Why would the saints have to keep getting abhorred at the
site location they must go to and see what is happening there?
Because God puts no trust in us. He won't for all of eternity.
But He knows that He can keep righteousness in His kingdom
by consistently reminding us of what happens to those that disobey
Him!

Paul 1 Cor. 15 told of a group before he spoke of the last trump
time.
Paul referred to them as -
others which/ have no hope

Jesus Christ said to those that will die in their sins -even before these
people were dead - that they cannot come - to where He was going.

He was going to the Father - back to heaven
but -they could not follow - for those Jews would die in their sins.

ye cannot come - follow

He didn't say, just wait out a few million years in the place where
the worm never dies, then your body will be resurrected again.
He didn't say that they will need so much time being refined first
in the place where their fire won't go out.

OT - so those that remain - will hear, fear, and obey

That is why Isaiah 66 shows some going out to see the wicked
in the lake of fire, and others as being in it!
Those bodies - as carcasses -
will not rise and have their names written in the book of life, so that they
can enter into the city - or eat from the tree of life

You can quote as much as you like. I'm sticking with the faith that:
  1. The Lord our God the Lord is one. His attributes are unified. So His grace and mercy are not opposed to His justice and wrath.
  2. God is spirit. Our war is spiritual. Our enemies are spiritual. Sin is an enemy. The last enemy is death.
  3. Jesus' name is He Saves. The name of the game.
  4. Jesus is the alpha and omega. His Salvation is the plan and its fulfilment.
  5. God will be all in all. Love never fails. He will restore creation. And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be with all. Amen.
So how can I believe God will fail? That's essentially what I hear you guys saying, just doubt and carnality. I'm sorry if you relate to God more as an angry volcano deity than a perfectly loving father.
 
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brinny

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For the third time in this thread:

“I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst,
(Ez 16:53)

Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Mt 10:15)

Why is it that many folks can only relate to God as a punishing magistrate? Father's justice is about setting right, not getting even.

The living God, El Elyon, is Holy. He is perfectly Holy and perfectly just. So is His wrath. His wrath is Holy.

The living God's wrath and His justice is perfect and without "sin".

There is a REASON that Jesus Himself warned against facing God's wrath, unrepentant.

That is why we are called to repentance and to be covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Rejecting the grace that is offered to us leaves us to face the wrath and judgement of a Holy God on our own.

This is written all throughout God's Word.
 
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BobRyan

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Burning the bodies to ashes in the OT days, did not also
burn the soul of the person to ashes.

agreed

It went on to be tormented
in hell until the day of the resurrection

no such text.

But we do have this..

Matt 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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brinny

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11 And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12 As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14 Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.

"15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. "

Does not say - the wicked are raised and "go to heaven anyway" .


==========================
Ezek
51 Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed. 52 Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous. 53 “Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54 in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55 Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

This does not talk about anyone being resurrected or going to heaven. It talks about the cities/land being freed from domination by a foreign power.

This is about the
Does not say - the wicked are raised and "go to heaven anyway" .
shake the dust off your feet.
Amen.
 
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Does not say - the wicked are raised and "go to heaven anyway" .

So your god destroys a city, then wakes up the dead just to roast them alive for eternity. Ok bonchance.

This does not talk about anyone being resurrected or going to heaven. It talks about the cities/land being freed from domination by a foreign power.

That foreign power is a metaphor for sin, the devil's dominion, sorceries of Babylon. God hands Israel over for their deeds, then saves them. That's the pattern. Israel worse than Sodom. Gets saved.
 
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Matt 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ok but aren't 2 sparrows sold for a buck?
 
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Der Alte

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You're right, so try to keep that in mind next time you quote 'hell-texts'. How often was Jesus giving out warnings of Gehenna fire to unbelievers, for instance?
If you can show me where I have ever quoted a text out-of-context, as I have shown you more than once with 1 Cor 3:9-14, please do so but if/since you can't, perhaps you should refrain from snide comments.
 
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Der Alte

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You can quote as much as you like. I'm sticking with the faith that:The Lord our God the Lord is one. His attributes are unified. So His grace and mercy are not opposed to His justice and wrath.
  1. God is spirit. Our war is spiritual. Our enemies are spiritual. Sin is an enemy. The last enemy is death.
  2. Jesus' name is He Saves. The name of the game.
  3. Jesus is the alpha and omega. His Salvation is the plan and its fulfilment.
  4. God will be all in all. Love never fails. He will restore creation. And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be with all. Amen.
So how can I believe God will fail? That's essentially what I hear you guys saying, just doubt and carnality. I'm sorry if you relate to God more as an angry volcano deity than a perfectly loving father.
A nice little list of cliches taking bits and pieces of unrelated verses, out-of-context. But what you cannot do is show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking says that all mankind, evil and righteous, alike will be saved no matter what.
 
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Der Alte

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1 Peter 3:4 but from the inner disposition of your heart, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in God's sight.
other versions have:
ageless
not corruptible
imperishable
and more to show that this part of a person is eternal
No disagreement but for those who wish to argue that "aionios" does not mean eternal, everlasting etc.
In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Petr, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
 
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brinny

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A nice little list of cliches taking bits and pieces of unrelated verses, out-of-context. But what you cannot do is show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking says that all mankind, evil and righteous, alike will be saved no matter what.
But what you cannot do is show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking says that all mankind, evil and righteous, alike will be saved no matter what.
Agreed. Universalism teaches this.
 
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agreed
no such text.
But we do have this..
Matt 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
.
What God created He certainly is able to destroy. Can you show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which states that God has/will destroy even one soul in hell?
 
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A nice little list of cliches taking bits and pieces of unrelated verses, out-of-context. But what you cannot do is show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking says that all mankind, evil and righteous, alike will be saved no matter what.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Rom 3:10 quoting Psalms)

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mk 11:24)

Join me in praying for the salvation of all mankind.
 
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brinny

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As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Rom 3:10 quoting Psalms)

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mk 11:24)

Join me in praying for the salvation of all mankind.

Praying that God's perfect and sovereign will is done, in the name of Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God, the God of the living. Father may it be so, in the name of Jesus, amen.

This comes to mind:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." ~Pr 9:10

"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." ~Titus 1:13-14


Let it rain.
 
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Der Alte

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A nice little list of cliches taking bits and pieces of unrelated verses, out-of-context. But what you cannot do is show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, speaking says that all mankind, evil and righteous, alike will be saved no matter what.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Rom 3:10 quoting Psalms)
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mk 11:24)
Join me in praying for the salvation of all mankind.
Perhaps you can tell me how this responds to my post, which you quoted and I quoted above in this post?
In the absence of a definitive response I can only surmise that you have no credible reply except dodging and evading.
 
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What God created He certainly is able to destroy. Can you show us one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which states that God has/will destroy even one soul in hell?

Matt 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The idea of "able but of course would never do such a thing" has to be 'inserted' into that "fear Him who is able to ...".

The Bible never uses the term "who is able to" to mean "but of course would never do it" when it comes to God

for example Jude 1:24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Acts 20:32
“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
 
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