Ashes or Everlasting Fire

[PROPHECYKID]

So I was listening to a sermon and the preachers used these 2 verses back to back to point out what seems like a total conflict.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Both of these verses both say that Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of what will happen to those who are lost. But Jude says they suffered eternal fire and Peter says they were turned into ashes and ashes always come in the aftermath of the fire when there is nothing else left to burn. So how do you guys reconcile these 2 verses and how does it impact your view on the destruction of the wicked.

 

[The Righterzpen]

So I was listening to a sermon and the preachers used these 2 verses back to back to point out what seems like a total conflict.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Both of these verses both say that Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of what will happen to those who are lost. But Jude says they suffered eternal fire and Peter says they were turned into ashes and ashes always come in the aftermath of the fire when there is nothing else left to burn. So how do you guys reconcile these 2 verses and how does it impact your view on the destruction of the wicked.

I think Jude is talking about those who face the wrath of God in the Lake of Fire at the end of time and 2 Peter is talking about what happened to the city on earth.

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven...." and Sodom and Gomorra were a temporal earthy example of wrath. Because of the nature of this current universe being destroyable; it's hard to depict an eternal truth in a temporal world.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I think Jude is talking about those who face the wrath of God in the Lake of Fire at the end of time and 2 Peter is talking about what happened to the city on earth.

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven...." and Sodom and Gomorra were a temporal earthy example of wrath. Because of the nature of this current universe being destroyable; it's hard to depict an eternal truth in a temporal world.

No Jude is talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, its clear in the verse.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So I was listening to a sermon and the preachers used these 2 verses back to back to point out what seems like a total conflict.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Both of these verses both say that Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of what will happen to those who are lost. But Jude says they suffered eternal fire and Peter says they were turned into ashes and ashes always come in the aftermath of the fire when there is nothing else left to burn. So how do you guys reconcile these 2 verses and how does it impact your view on the destruction of the wicked.

I don't know. But I did hear of a guy called Ashley, whose house caught fire and he didn't get out in time, and now they call him just "Ash".

 

[BobRyan]

So I was listening to a sermon and the preachers used these 2 verses back to back to point out what seems like a total conflict.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Both of these verses both say that Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of what will happen to those who are lost. But Jude says they suffered eternal fire and Peter says they were turned into ashes and ashes always come in the aftermath of the fire when there is nothing else left to burn. So how do you guys reconcile these 2 verses and how does it impact your view on the destruction of the wicked.

Jude 1:7 does not say "eternal torment" it says "eternal fire" and 2 Peter 2:6 further clarifies that "eternal fire" reduces to ashes.

Very similar to Matt 10:28 "fear Him who is able to destroy both body AND soul in fiery hell"

Whatever people may think of the subject - it is clear those texts do agree with each other.

Kinda like this one Ezek 28
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

Whatever people may think of the subject - it is clear those texts do agree with each other.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I don't know. But I did hear of a guy called Ashley, whose house caught fire and he didn't get out in time, and now they call him just "Ash".

I like that

 

[The Righterzpen]

No Jude is talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, its clear in the verse.

"are set forth for an example...." You can't have "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" on a temporal earth.

One is speaking of what that points to in eternity and the other is speaking about what happened to the cities on earth.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don't know. But I did hear of a guy called Ashley, whose house caught fire and he didn't get out in time, and now they call him just "Ash".

LOL - that was a real "groaner"!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

LOL - that was a real "groaner"!

I told it to an elderly friend named Ashley, and said that I knew another guy called by the same name, and when he passed away, his body was cremated and now we just know him as "Ash". He enjoyed the joke!

 

[The Righterzpen]

I told it to an elderly friend named Ashley, and said that I knew another guy called by the same name, and when he passed away, his body was cremated and now we just know him as "Ash". He enjoyed the joke!

Groan round two!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

"are set forth for an example...." You can't have "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" on a temporal earth.

One is speaking of what that points to in eternity and the other is speaking about what happened to the cities on earth.

Bro, the text says clearly that they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:7
(ASV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
(BBE) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the towns near them, having like these, given themselves up to unclean desires and gone after strange flesh, have been made an example, undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
(CEV) We should also be warned by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the nearby towns. Their people became immoral and did all sorts of sexual sins. Then God made an example of them and punished them with eternal fire.
(ERV) Also, remember the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other towns around them. Like those angels they were full of sexual sin and involved themselves in sexual relations that are wrong. And they suffer the punishment of eternal fire, an example for us to see.
(ESV) just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
(ISV) Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them, which like them committed sexual sins and pursued homosexual activities, serve as an example of the punishment of eternal fire.
(KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(LITV) as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
(MKJV) as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.
(RV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

So I do not buy that the fire that destroyed them was not eternal fire when the bible says that they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. But can both scriptures be both correct, that they sufferenred the vengeance of eternal fire and were reduced to ashes?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Bro, the text says clearly that they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.

How do you have an eternal fire on a temporal planet? This has to be describing something other than the material world we see.

So I do not buy that the fire that destroyed them was not eternal fire when the bible says that they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. But can both scriptures be both correct, that they sufferenred the vengeance of eternal fire and were reduced to ashes?

If you believe Scripture is inerrant than you have to reconcile these passages. How can it be both eternal fire and ashes? I gave you an answer. One is describing something other than the current physical realm and the other is describing what happened to the cities on earth.

Unless you are really trying to argue against the concept that those who endure the wrath of God; endure it for eternity.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

How do you have an eternal fire on a temporal planet? This has to be describing something other than the material world we see.

Well the Lake of fire is going to be on a temporal planet wouldn't it? In Revelation 21 God recreated the heavens and the earth but in Revelation 19 and 20 the lake of fire is there. So wouldn't that also be eternal fire on a temporal earth? Unless you believe that God recreates the heavens and the earth but keeps the old Lake of Fire on the new earth even though it says that all former things are passed away and all things become new.

If you believe Scripture is inerrant than you have to reconcile these passages. How can it be both eternal fire and ashes? I gave you an answer. One is describing something other than the current physical realm and the other is describing what happened to the cities on earth.

Well could it be that the fire can be eternal in its quality but the thing it is burning can be reduced to ashes because that thing is not eternal?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well the Lake of fire is going to be on a temporal planet wouldn't it? In Revelation 21 God recreated the heavens and the earth but in Revelation 19 and 20 the lake of fire is there. So wouldn't that also be eternal fire on a temporal earth? Unless you believe that God recreates the heavens and the earth but keeps the old Lake of Fire on the new earth even though it says that all former things are passed away and all things become new.

Well could it be that the fire can be eternal in its quality but the thing it is burning can be reduced to ashes because that thing is not eternal?

Revelation 20 talks of the final resurrection and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. So this is clearly the end of time.

Revelation 14:11 speaks of "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever".

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 13:37-43 Jesus gives this explanation of a parable:

37 He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Then there's this passage:

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

These passages are pretty clear; those who endure the wrath of God, do so for all eternity.

So, seems apparent to me that the Lake of Fire is a permanent fixture of God's created world and will exist into eternity. Scripture says this heavens and earth will be recreated and so apparently the Lake of Fire is not a part of this created world, that will be recreated.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Revelation 20 talks of the final resurrection and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. So this is clearly the end of time.

Revelation 14:11 speaks of "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever".

Matthew 13:37-43 Jesus gives this explanation of a parable:

37 He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Then there's this passage:

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

These passages are pretty clear; those who endure the wrath of God, do so for all eternity.

So, seems apparent to me that the Lake of Fire is a permanent fixture of God's created world and will exist into eternity. Scripture says this heavens and earth will be recreated and so apparently the Lake of Fire is not a part of this created world, that will be recreated.

Do you see the conclusions you need to come to though?

It can work if the Lake of Fire does not actually exist in this world but exists in a totally different place. But the bible at least implies the opposite.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Now even I do not fully understand this so I am not claiming to have all the knowledge on this. But according to Isaiah the Lake of Fire would have been in the same world as where God's people is because the effects of the destruction can be seen. Also in Revelation 20 it says that the people will try to attack the city and God will destroy them.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So it seems to me like the Lake of Fire exists in the same world as the New Jerusalem. What I do not believe is that the people will be burning forever, or else there cannot be ashes.

Lets talk about the fire that cannot be quenched. Now that means nobody can put out the fire, but that does not mean the fire is eternal because a fire will burn until what it is burning is completely turned into ashes, but ashes cannot burn. You said earlier that Sodom and Gomorrah could not possible suffer the vengeance of eternal fire because it was on a temporal earth so which is subject to destruction and that is actually something I can agree with, but given that same logic why should man burn forever if he is not immortal and only temporal? Only the saved are given immoral bodies.

 

[The Righterzpen]

It can work if the Lake of Fire does not actually exist in this world but exists in a totally different place. But the bible at least implies the opposite.

Now I know this may sound "Star Trekie"; but I think it's valid to conclude that we likely live in a dimensional universe. We know things like angels and demons exist; even if we can't see them. We know humans have a spiritual dimension of our existence called a soul. We can't see the souls of the dead though.

Paul speaks of "the 3rd heaven" (the domain of God). Which on account of who and what God is; has to be a dimension other than the one we currently live in. The New Jerusalem exists in that dimension; and apparently so does the Lake of Fire. So yes, I would have to conclude the Lake of Fire would be in a different "place" than the time and space of this universe that we occupy.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Now pay really close attention to this verse. "For AS the new heavens....." It's making a comparison. "....your seed will remain forever..."

Now look at verse 23 "And it shall come to pass....." then you have "new moon", "sabbath", "flesh". This is all language indicating something earthy. We know this because we on the New Testament side of the law don't worship on Saturday. That was part of the Old Testament law that was done away with when Christ fulfilled the atonement. Now obviously we still have "years and days and months". There is still an accounting of time.

Now the next verse 24; is describing a perpetual destruction. In earthly history; Israel had what was called "the Valley of Ghenna" and that was an earthly picture of the Lake of Fire. And they did have a perpetual fire going there. It was the place where all the trash was burned.

So it seems to me like the Lake of Fire exists in the same world as the New Jerusalem.

I would say that when the new heavens and new earth are created; there will be a simultaneous existence of these two dimensions. I'm not sure that's what this passage is referencing in more than parabolic form though?

What I do not believe is that the people will be burning forever, or else there cannot be ashes.

I don't think you can reconcile that belief with Scripture that says other wise. And this is why I say there's a comparison being made between our current temporal existence and eternal existence.

Now the other application to this; is that the current place of holding for the unredeemed "Sheol" (translated hell); does exist in our "temporal dimension" even though we can't see that either. The reason I say this is the passage in Revelation where it says "death and hell" are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Lets talk about the fire that cannot be quenched. Now that means nobody can put out the fire, but that does not mean the fire is eternal because a fire will burn until what it is burning is completely turned into ashes, but ashes cannot burn.

Again, you have to examine that belief against the entirety of Scripture where there are passages that say the fire does not go out. Again, comparison of a temporal dimension to an eternal dimension.

but given that same logic why should man burn forever if he is not immortal and only temporal? Only the saved are given immoral bodies.

This is not true either. There are plenty of passages in Scripture that speak of all being raised and those who have eternal life are transformed. Now what state the unregenerate are in; the Bible doesn't give us a whole lot of information. There are passages that talk of worms that don't die and that type of thing. But make no mistake. All the dead are raised and humanity has an aspect of our existence that is "eternal" in the sense that we have a beginning; yet will have no end.

We are created in the image of God and because of that; it makes us accountable. If human existence was designed to cease at some point; than there'd be no reason for Jesus to die. The atonement dealt with the wrath of God.

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved

From General Theology
To Controversial Christian Theology

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So how do you guys reconcile these 2 verses and how does it impact your view on the destruction of the wicked.

Sodom and Gomorrah.
“I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst, (Ez 16:53)

Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Mt 10:15)

So according to our Lord and Ezekiel, there's a sure hope for a better tomorrah.

How can all these scriptures be harmonised? Simple - S&G are destroyed with eternal fire on earth, then they're revived on judgment day to be set right by Christ. The old S&G die forever, their former wickedness consumed in the purifying grace of God (the smoke of it will go up forever, it's gone daddy gone), and the new S&G will come cleansed and repentant to the throne for healing by the leaves of the tree of life.

Saved, yet as through fire. Now that's the good news.