Ashes or Everlasting Fire

[Der Alte]

Matt 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The idea of "able but of course would never do such a thing" has to be 'inserted' into that "fear Him who is able to ...".
The Bible never uses the term "who is able to" to mean "but of course would never do it" when it comes to God
for example Jude 1:24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Acts 20:32
“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Perhaps you did not carefully read my post. I never said nor implied "able but of course would never do such a thing." But I did ask for just one verse spoken by God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, which states that God has or ever will destroy one soul in hell?
And while God is able to keep people from stumbling, some still do.
You missed this verse.

Hebrews 5:7
(7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;​

Although God was able to save Jesus from death He did not do so.
Here is another verse.

Acts of the apostles 20:32
(32) And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.​

Although God was "able to build up" and give an inheritance to the church at Ephesus, where is that church today?

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps you did not carefully read my post. I never said nor implied "able but of course would never do such a thing." But I did ask for just one verse spoken by God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, which states that God has or ever will destroy one soul in hell?

And I gave you Matt 10:18 about what God will do.

Then I show "He who is able" is used numerous times by NT authors to show exactly what God will do.

No hedging.

No gaming.

Those texts where irrefutably showing what God most certainly will do using the language "is able" to do.

You missed this verse.

Hebrews 5:7
(7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;​

Although God was able to save Jesus from death He did not do so.

Jesus tells Mary "he who believes on me shall never die" John 11 at the very time when as Jesus said "Lazarus is dead" John 11. Death that you survive - is one that you are spared from at least to some degree. What is more there were many instances in the life of Christ where His life was saved.

I am not as quick to negate the text.

Here is another verse.

Acts of the apostles 20:32
(32) And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
​

Most certainly did to some degree and still will happen Rev 2:1-8

​

Although God was "able to build up" and give an inheritance to the church at Ephesus, where is that church today?

all of them died and those saved will participate in the inheritance " among all them which are sanctified."

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The idea of "able but of course would never do such a thing" has to be 'inserted' into that "fear Him who is able to ...".

The Bible never uses the term "who is able to" to mean "but of course would never do it" when it comes to God

for example Jude 1:24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Acts 20:32
“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

God is able to do what He wants to. That does mean that He does not at times put limits.

Read Matthew 10 - Christ is talking about witnessing under dire threat from the wicked. Christ says not to worry because the wicked only threaten to destroy body... not soul. But he contrasts that to the warning of God who is "able to destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell".

His entire point regarding what the wicked most certainly will do ... is to contrast it with what God most certainly will do .

people in the OT - no remedy incurable

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in Matthew 17 before the cross - in glory.
All of the "giants of faith" held up before NT saints in Hebrews 11 .. are in the OT.

Saying that He is able to destroy doesn't mean that it is consumed in its entirety.

On the contrary - Sodom and Gomorrah "destroyed" by "reducing them to ashes" 2 Peter 2.

The contrast in Matt 10 is between "kill the body" (and nothing to the soul) vs
"DESTROY the body" -- "and also destroy the soul".

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[BobRyan]

He is able to

Matthew 3:9

Can't be turned into "trust that He will never" to make the same point

And the Matt 10:28 point is actually a "context set" for those being persecuted by the wicked who are trying to kill them as John 16:1-3 pointed out. Not a "forget about this idea" but rather giving the larger view for real persecution. One where avoiding hell is a much bigger deal than avoiding persecution by the wicked.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Perhaps you can tell me how this responds to my post, which you quoted and I quoted above in this post?
In the absence of a definitive response I can only surmise that you have no credible reply except dodging and evading.

I was hoping we could pray together, but it seems to prefer to excoriate me...brother.

Jesus did and will say 'Depart from me ye cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'.

It's good to know that the fire is divine fire and as Jesus also teaches 'Everyone will be salted with fire, and salt is GOOD'. Refiner's fire, consuming the dross etc as lavishly taught throughout scripture. And don't we need it!

Plus keep in mind Rev 22:3 God's no more curse formula.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God made a way to redeem men that repent of their sin.

Jesus went to the cross to show that God's love for us so exceeds even our crime of deicide and He ain't letting us go.

The cross is not an ultimatum, that would not be good news of salvation. That would be hostage-taking not jailbreaking.

There is only one way to eternal life. Then - the door will close -and the wicked
will be cursed and cast into the lake of fire.

Together with the tragic young rape victim whose suicide note condemned Jesus. She's gonna burn for that forever!!

What a dopey theology.

 

[BobRyan]

John 11
He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

In this life each night "the body sleeps" -- it is not "killed" each night.
In this life when a person dies "the body is killed" (not slept) Matt 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

The souls of the people won't need to be woke up, .

Your argument is "with the text"

 

[brinny]

vinsight4u said: ↑
God made a way to redeem men that repent of their sin.

Jesus went to the cross to show that God's love for us so exceeds even our crime of deicide and He ain't letting us go.

The cross is not an ultimatum, that would not be good news of salvation. That would be hostage-taking not jailbreaking.

vinsight4u said: ↑
There is only one way to eternal life. Then - the door will close -and the wicked
will be cursed and cast into the lake of fire.

Together with the tragic young rape victim whose suicide note condemned Jesus. She's gonna burn for that forever!!

What a dopey theology.[/QUOTE]
What you just posted about and called "dopey theology" is what is written in God's Word. Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY to God the Father. THAT is why God sent His only begotten Son here, and that was that whoever believes in Him and repents, will be saved.

Are you saying this is "dopey theology"?

Your posts here appear to be promoting Universalism, and in addition, ridiculing God's Way of salvation, which is only through Jesus Christ, calling it "dopey theology".

 

[brinny]

I was hoping we could pray together, but it seems to prefer to excoriate me...brother.

Jesus did and will say 'Depart from me ye cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'.

It's good to know that the fire is divine fire and as Jesus also teaches 'Everyone will be salted with fire, and salt is GOOD'. Refiner's fire, consuming the dross etc as lavishly taught throughout scripture. And don't we need it!

Plus keep in mind Rev 22:3 God's no more curse formula.

The lake of fire is NOT a "good thing".

That is the very antithesis to what is written in God's Word.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you saying this is "dopey theology"?

It's a dopey theology to believe that unbelievers get bbq'd forever. And worse..it's a slur on God's holy name.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The lake of fire is NOT a "good thing".

Take it up with Jesus, he says it's good to be salted with fire. (Mk 9:49). He also baptises with fire (Mt 3:11). How God purifies us. Pure = fire.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
Are you saying this is "dopey theology"?

It's a dopey theology to believe that unbelievers get bbq'd forever. And worse..it's a slur on God's holy name.

Where is that written in God's Word?

The unrepentant are cast into the lake of fire. For eternity.

It is written.

It is carried out by a Holy and righteous living God.

In Gnosticism, it is taught that God is "evil".

This is akin to blasphemy.

In addition, the unforgivable sin is unrepentance.

For if there is no unrepentance, there is no forgiveness. Only condemnation.

We are warned in Revelation not to change the words of the Bible or to twist them.

Beware of deceitfulness. It originates with the devil, the “father” of lies (John 8:44), and is one of the seven things God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” ~Walter Scott

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
The lake of fire is NOT a "good thing".

Take it up with Jesus, he says it's good to be salted with fire. (Mk 9:49). He also baptises with fire (Mt 3:11). How God purifies us. Pure = fire.

The lake of fire, where God condemns the devil and all his angels and those who are unrepentant, is NOT a "good thing".

If it was, Jesus would not have died, shedding His blood on the cross.

It would have been unnecessary for Him to do so.

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

Praying.

Let it rain.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

NOT a "good thing".

Not a good thing to resist the Great Physician's ultimate cure.

If it was, Jesus would not have died, shedding His blood on the cross.

You really have a formulaic view of the atonement. The cross showed God's love for us overcomes even our murdering His son. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
NOT a "good thing".

Not a good thing to resist the Great Physician's ultimate cure.

brinny said: ↑
If it was, Jesus would not have died, shedding His blood on the cross.

You really have a formulaic view of the atonement. The cross showed God's love for us overcomes even our murdering His son. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

This makes no sense.

How does any of what you posted relate to my post (#118) ?

Beware of deceitfulness. It originates with the devil, the “father” of lies (John 8:44), and is one of the seven things God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” ~Walter Scott

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

Praying.

Let it rain.