Ashes or Everlasting Fire

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The unrepentant are cast into the lake of fire. For eternity.

Where is that written?
It is carried out by a Holy and righteous living God.

Nothing righteous about infinite punishment for finite sins. That would be the very definition of evil.

In addition, the unforgivable sin is unrepentance.

Possibly, it's actually blasphemy of the holy spirit, but that's ok because everyone repents. What do you think is happening throughout the Book of Revelation?
 
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brinny

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Where is that written?


Nothing righteous about infinite punishment for finite sins. That would be the very definition of evil.



Possibly, it's actually blasphemy of the holy spirit, but that's ok because everyone repents. What do you think is happening throughout the Book of Revelation?
Nothing righteous about infinite punishment for finite sins. That would be the very definition of evil.
Are you saying the living God is evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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BobRyan

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Take it up with Jesus, he says it's good to be salted with fire. (Mk 9:49). He also baptises with fire (Mt 3:11). How God purifies us. Pure = fire.
none of which is the lake of fire.
 
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Where is that written?
Nothing righteous about infinite punishment for finite sins. That would be the very definition of evil.
Possibly, it's actually blasphemy of the holy spirit, but that's ok because everyone repents. What do you think is happening throughout the Book of Revelation?

Is your argument really just against "fire for eternity" ?? or is it that you believe the one way or another all the wicked get to heaven "anyway"?
 
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Are you saying the living God is evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
Not the one true living God, just the devil who's deceived the whole world.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
Are you saying the living God is evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
Not the one true living God, just the devil who's deceived the whole world.
You posted this in post #121:
Nothing righteous about infinite punishment for finite sins. That would be the very definition of evil.
Only God sentences and condemns the devil and his angels and all the unrepentant to the lake of fire.
You are saying that God is evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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Is your argument really just against "fire for eternity" ?? or is it that you believe the one way or another all the wicked get to heaven "anyway"?

Cool down bro. I'm asking where it's written that the unrepentant are in the eternal fire forever.
 
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brinny

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Shrewd Manager said:
Where is that written?
Nothing righteous about infinite punishment for finite sins. That would be the very definition of evil.
Possibly, it's actually blasphemy of the holy spirit, but that's ok because everyone repents. What do you think is happening throughout the Book of Revelation?
Is your argument really just against "fire for eternity" ?? or is it that you believe the one way or another all the wicked get to heaven "anyway"?

Exactly.
 
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You are saying that God is evil?

Sadly, Brinny, I fear that I must be expressing myself so poorly and with such lack of clarity that you'll never comprehend my posts. It seems you have some notion that I think the wicked will avoid punishment. That's not the case. As we sow, so shall we reap. But God's ultimate purpose is to save us from our wicked ways. That's why Jesus' name is His Salvation in Hebrew. And he is the beginning and the end.

He whom God loves much He chastises much.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
You are saying that God is evil?
Sadly, Brinny, I fear that I must be expressing myself so poorly and with such lack of clarity that you'll never comprehend my posts. It seems you have some notion that I think the wicked will avoid punishment. That's not the case. As we sow, so shall we reap. But God's ultimate purpose is to save us from our wicked ways. That's why Jesus' name is His Salvation in Hebrew. And he is the beginning and the end.

He whom God loves much He chastises much.

You stated that whoever would condemn anyone to the lake of fire is evil.

Since it is God who does so, i asked you if you are saying that God is evil. (Gnosticism teaches that God is evil).

Your posts throughout this thread appear to be promoting Universalism. (see post #121, for example)

Universalism is not taught in the Bible.

Beware of deceitfulness. It originates with the devil, the “father” of lies (John 8:44), and is one of the seven things God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” ~Walter Scott

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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You stated that whoever would condemn anyone to the lake of fire is evil.

I said no such thing.

Your posts throughout this thread appear to be promoting Universalism.

I am a proud universalist. This is the so-called controversial theology forum, so I don't know why you're so shocked to find universalists here.

Universalism is not taught in the Bible.

Says you. Universalism is far better supported than damnationism in the Bible. It is orthodox, having never been condemned by 7 ecumenical councils, despite them having had opportunity. It is within the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. And it is a position held by many eminent Christians of various colours since ancient times.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
You stated that whoever would condemn anyone to the lake of fire is evil.
I said no such thing.
see post #121

You essentially called God evil. It is HE is Who condemns, and sentences the unrepentant to the lake of fire.
brinny said:
Your posts throughout this thread appear to be promoting Universalism.
I am a proud universalist. This is the so-called controversial theology forum, so I don't know why you're so shocked to find universalists here.
brinny said:
Universalism is not taught in the Bible.
Says you. Universalism is far better supported than damnationism in the Bible. It is orthodox, having never been condemned by 7 ecumenical councils, despite them having had opportunity. It is within the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. And it is a position held by many eminent Christians of various colours since ancient times.

Universalism is not taught in the Bible.

It is heresy.

You are defending and promoting it.

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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You essentially called God evil. It is HE is Who condemns, and sentences the unrepentant to the lake of fire.

Brinny, I'm now considering not responding to any more of your posts, seeing as you're persistently wilfully misrepresenting my posts. You obviously have some seething personal issue. I pray that God delivers you.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
You essentially called God evil. It is HE is Who condemns, and sentences the unrepentant to the lake of fire.
Brinny, I'm now considering not responding to any more of your posts, seeing as you're persistently wilfully misrepresenting my posts. You obviously have some seething personal issue. I pray that God delivers you.
You called the One Who judges, condemns and sentences the unrepentant to the lake of fire for eternity, evil. That is God Who does this. You called God evil. Gnosticism teaches that God is evil. That's heresy.

Beware of deceitfulness. It originates with the devil, the “father” of lies (John 8:44), and is one of the seven things God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” ~Walter Scott

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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You called the One Who judges, condemns and sentences the unrepentant to the lake of fire for eternity, evil. That is God Who does this. You called God evil. Gnosticism teaches that God is evil. That's heresy.

Beware of deceitfulness. It originates with the devil, the “father” of lies (John 8:44), and is one of the seven things God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” ~Walter Scott

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

Praying.

Let it rain.

Because eternal punishment is not Biblical. It is pagan heresy.
 
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brinny

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brinny said:
You called the One Who judges, condemns and sentences the unrepentant to the lake of fire for eternity, evil. That is God Who does this. You called God evil. Gnosticism teaches that God is evil. That's heresy.

Beware of deceitfulness. It originates with the devil, the “father” of lies (John 8:44), and is one of the seven things God hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” ~Walter Scott

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" ~Isa 5:20

Praying.

Let it rain.
Because eternal punishment is not Biblical. It is pagan heresy.
Are you calling the God of the Bible Pagan?

Is that why you said that He's evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
 
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Hillsage

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Are you calling the God of the Bible Pagan?

Is that why you said that He's evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
No, our opinion is that you are calling him EVIL. You do so by adding the word "ETERNAL" to your theology of never ending, and therefore purposeless, TORTURE. What does torturing anyone forever do? Does it SCARE all the sinners saved by HIS GRACE to not sin in heaven???? :doh: And the definition of that Greek word being "eternal" , is a word definition that wasn't in vogue until Augustine, determined to force all of the church to follow His denomination, the church of Rome. Torturing ANYONE for all eternity, for no reason other than "I am" and therefore I can is an evil and sadistic justification from the nominal church system of the 'dark ages', and not in keeping with the majority of the Christian schools for the first 500 years.

SOURCE 1;
"According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years -
four were Universalist (Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa).
One advocated annihilation (Ephesus) and
one advocated Eternal Hell
(the Latin Church of North Africa).

Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. Later, Theodore of Mopsuestia had a different theological basis for Universal Salvation, and his view continued in the break-away Church of the East (Nestorian) where his Universalist ideas still exist in its liturgy today."


SOURCE 2;
"KEN VINCENT: The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell became Eternal

One of the best clues to early Christian theology is in artwork discovered at the Catacombs in Rome . Graves of common people were adorned with
drawings of Jesus as the Good Shepherd - beardless and virtually indistinguishable from the Greco-Roman savior figure Orpheus. Other popular images there were the Last Supper and the Magi at the birth of Jesus. Occasionally in early Christian art, Jesus is shown working miracles using a magic wand! Significantly, the crucifix is noticeably absent from early art, as is any depiction of judgment scenes or Hell.

As we move into the middle of the 2 nd Century, a shift takes place from writing works considered "Holy Scripture" to interpretations of it. The first
writer on the theology on Christian Universalism whose works survive is St. Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215CE). He was the head of the theology school at Alexandria which, until it closed at the end of the 4 th Century, was a bastion of Universalist thought.
His pupil, Origen (185 - 254 CE), wrote the first complete presentation of Christianity as a system, and Universalism was at its core. Origen was the first to produce a parallel Old Testament that included Hebrew, a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, the Septuagint, and three other Greek translations. He was also the first to recognize that some parts of the Bible should be taken literally and others metaphorically. He wrote a defense of Christianity in response to a pagan writer's denigration of it.

Prior to the Roman Catholic Church's condemnation of all of Universalist thought in the 6 th Century, Church authority had already reached back in
time
to pick out several of Origen's ideas they deemed unacceptable.
Some that found disfavor were his insistence that the Devil would be saved at the end of time, the pre-existence of human souls, the reincarnation of the wicked, and his claim that the purification of souls could go on for many eons. Finally, he was condemned by the Church because his concept of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not agree with the "official" Doctrine of the Trinity formulated a century after his death! After the 6 th Century, much of his work was destroyed; fortunately, some of it survived.

 
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brinny

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brinny said:
Are you calling the God of the Bible Pagan?

Is that why you said that He's evil?

Praying.

Let it rain.
No, our opinion is that you are calling him EVIL. You do so by adding the word "ETERNAL" to your theology of never ending, and therefore purposeless, TORTURE. What does torturing anyone forever do? Does it SCARE all the sinners saved by HIS GRACE to not sin in heaven???? :doh: And the definition of that Greek word being "eternal" , is a word definition that wasn't in vogue until Augustine, determined to force all of the church to follow His denomination, the church of Rome. Torturing ANYONE for all eternity, for no reason other than "I am" and therefore I can is an evil and sadistic justification from the nominal church system of the 'dark ages', and not in keeping with the majority of the Christian schools for the first 500 years.

SOURCE 1;
"According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years -
four were Universalist (Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa).
One advocated annihilation (Ephesus) and
one advocated Eternal Hell
(the Latin Church of North Africa).

Most of the Universalists throughout Christendom followed the teachings of Origen. Later, Theodore of Mopsuestia had a different theological basis for Universal Salvation, and his view continued in the break-away Church of the East (Nestorian) where his Universalist ideas still exist in its liturgy today."


SOURCE 2;
"KEN VINCENT: The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell became Eternal

One of the best clues to early Christian theology is in artwork discovered at the Catacombs in Rome . Graves of common people were adorned with
drawings of Jesus as the Good Shepherd - beardless and virtually indistinguishable from the Greco-Roman savior figure Orpheus. Other popular images there were the Last Supper and the Magi at the birth of Jesus. Occasionally in early Christian art, Jesus is shown working miracles using a magic wand! Significantly, the crucifix is noticeably absent from early art, as is any depiction of judgment scenes or Hell.

As we move into the middle of the 2 nd Century, a shift takes place from writing works considered "Holy Scripture" to interpretations of it. The first
writer on the theology on Christian Universalism whose works survive is St. Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215CE). He was the head of the theology school at Alexandria which, until it closed at the end of the 4 th Century, was a bastion of Universalist thought.
His pupil, Origen (185 - 254 CE), wrote the first complete presentation of Christianity as a system, and Universalism was at its core. Origen was the first to produce a parallel Old Testament that included Hebrew, a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, the Septuagint, and three other Greek translations. He was also the first to recognize that some parts of the Bible should be taken literally and others metaphorically. He wrote a defense of Christianity in response to a pagan writer's denigration of it.

Prior to the Roman Catholic Church's condemnation of all of Universalist thought in the 6 th Century, Church authority had already reached back in
time
to pick out several of Origen's ideas they deemed unacceptable.
Some that found disfavor were his insistence that the Devil would be saved at the end of time, the pre-existence of human souls, the reincarnation of the wicked, and his claim that the purification of souls could go on for many eons. Finally, he was condemned by the Church because his concept of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not agree with the "official" Doctrine of the Trinity formulated a century after his death! After the 6 th Century, much of his work was destroyed; fortunately, some of it survived.

No, our opinion is that you are calling him EVIL.
The Gnostics call God "evil", calling Him, the Creator, the "Demiurge", a bungling and incompetent fool that creates the world as a spiritual prison.

That's why i was asking for clarification.

Gnosticism is heresy.
 
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I was hoping we could pray together, but it seems to prefer to excoriate me...brother.
How does me describing your response, rather lack of, "excoriate" you personally?
Jesus did and will say 'Depart from me ye cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'.
And Jesus will also say these "cursed" "will go away into eternal punishment." Jesus is quoted as saying the word death 17 times in the gospels. If Jesus meant "eternal death" as some folks are wont to argue He would not have said "eternal punishment." And no it does NOT mean "to prune."

It's good to know that the fire is divine fire and as Jesus also teaches 'Everyone will be salted with fire, and salt is GOOD'. Refiner's fire, consuming the dross etc as lavishly taught throughout scripture. And don't we need it!
Which verses are you referring to? Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting bits and pieces of isolated verses out-of-context.

While Jesus did say "salted with fire" in the previous 2 vss He said

Mark 9:47-48
(47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
(48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And in Matt. Jesus said.
Matthew 5:13
(13) Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Plus keep in mind Rev 22:3 God's no more curse formula.
Another isolated out-of-context proof text. Let us read further in Rev 22.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
All this happens after "no more curse."
 
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