I agree that this verse is for us today, as the great Day of the Lord's wrath onto the whole world, hasn't occurred yet.Arguments for the rapture in 10-11 is seen ......
“Because you have kept my admonition to endure steadfastly, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth”.
The Saints and the 144,000 are two different congregations. Read the fine print!
That comes across as very arrogant.Dr. John Walvrood, Dr. J. Vernon MaGee, Dr. Oliver B. Green, and a host of others who are a lot smarter then me and you
But if there is nowhere in the Bible that says God will take us to heaven during trials and tribulation, then you have added it to the text. Not a good idea to add to Revelation.If one is "out of" [EK] the tribulation, one is not in it
EK can also be translated "away from" [Revelation 7:9-17]
You demonstrate your bias and sheer lack of Bible knowledge to say that.There is not a single passage in the entire New Testament where language that speaks of Israel or the Jews ever is used to refer to anyone who is not ethnically Israel.
But did you not assume that the 24 elders represent the church? And don't tell me that's an "implied truth", because it's far from it.Now as for "assumption". NO! I do not assume anything, ever!
I'm not concerned with whether or not the word rapture is found in scripture. I'm more concerned with whether or not the Bible actually teaches a rapture.You are correct in that the word Rapture is not found in the Bible. However, There is a teaching in all of educational learning that is called "Implied Truth".
That means that there is enough information available to prove a point, even if the exact words are not found.
Sure. But in the case of a pre-trib rapture I just don't think there's nearly enough of it. In fact, I think the evidence against a pre-trib rapture far outweighs any evidence for a pre-trib rapture.So then, does not evidence then become actual proof when there is enough of it. I think so!
Note however, that both Enoch and Elijah (and we can probably include Moses in this group as well) were transformed before they were raptured. I assume you agree that this is a requirement; to be transformed first. Then you only have to go back to the words of Jesus when he said he would resurrect us on the last day, to know that our transformation also takes place on the last day. Therefore we can't be raptured prior to the last day.Old Testament raptures, while not teaching the New Testament truth of the rapture of the church, do provide us with Old Testament types, patterns, or illustrations of the rapture or as I said earlier..."IMPLIED TRUTH". Thus, Enoch and Elijah stand as types of the rapture of the church.
I have no idea who they are because the Bible doesn't tell us. So I'm certainly not going to pretend I have the answer nor use this unexplained imagery of 24 elders as evidence for or against anything. That would be disingenuous.If the 12 Elders do not represent the church which I belive they do, WHO DO YOU or what do you believe they are and do you have any Biblical proof?
So you think there are OT prophecies that applies to our generation, and that God has prophecies in His book concerning people that denied He came in the flesh. That's interesting.What is said in Revelation 13:7, [and in Daniel 7:25] is the Lord's holy people; the Saints are on earth when Satan is cast down from heaven. He overcomes them, as prophesied in Zechariah 14:1-2. Half are exiled, those who refused the peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32, and taken to safety, Revelation 12:14.
However there is at least 10 years from now until this happens, so we have time to strengthen our faith.
He's actually correct. Look at the palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
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That is nonsense. I have provided the proof and have proven there isn't any evidence for a rapture but wishful thinking, just wanting to believe that certain verses are referring to the rapture, because there's no evidence of anyone in Revelation being there without being raised from the dead except for John.The problem is going to be that you have already made up your mind on this. You have already decided that there is no pre-tribulation Rapture so there is not going to be anything said that is going to change that.
Remove the beam from your own eye first and spare me the con game.If you had said that you were 'Open" to the leading of the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth of God's Word, then we might get somewhere.
That is not the issue.But we will give it a try anyway. It is has been said by those who reject the Rapture that......
"I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is gobbledygook.
Where is your train of thought? The issue and the fact is that Christ does not return until the 2nd resurrection, so there is no rapture. Everyone in Rev 7 was resurrected, appeared in heaven, and they weren't carried.For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes. 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing.
Where is your train of thought? The issue and the fact is that Christ does not return until the 2nd resurrection so there can be no rapture. Everyone in Rev 7 were resurrected, appeared in heaven, and they weren't carried by anyone.
There is a huge amount of unfulfilled prophecy in the OT. Preterism just doesn't stand up to the facts of the historical record.So you think there are OT prophecies that applies to our generation,
The Jewish nation of Israel, is in the same category as every other nation on earth, it is only the individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language, who truly believe in God and keep the Commandments, who will be saved to live, at last, as God always wanted His people to be. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8and that God has prophecies in His book concerning people that denied He came in the flesh.
Rapture is mentioned in Revelation chapter 11, the resurrection of the Two Witnesses who'd been killed and dead for three days. Then a voice from heaven said to them "Come up here." And they went up into heaven.I would like someone to please show me where a rapture is mentioned in Revelation since the only thing I see mentioned in Revelation are resurrections.
Not tasting death until seeing Christ come into His kingdom was not speaking literally. Jesus gave the discourse before His death, and Christ coming into His kingdom has not yet happened over these 2000 years.Where does it say there's a rapture if the 2nd advent, as described in the Olivet discourse, is the 2nd resurrection, where that generation, and those standing there at the time of the Olivet discourse, taste death after witnessing Christ coming into his kingdom, which is the New Yah-ru-Shalem?
The first resurrection, in Revelation 20:4-6, is referring to the resurrection of the Tribulation martyred saints who are raised up to reign with Christ for a thousand years.If the Olivet discourse advent which is the gathering of the elect and the so-called 2nd return of Christ is the 2nd resurrection, when Christ supposedly returns to earth, how does anyone justify a rapture at the "1st resurrection" if there's no advent, no return of Christ to earth until the 2nd resurrection?
Mat.24:3 His coming refers to the Second Advent.Where does it say there's a rapture if the 2nd advent, as described in the Olivet discourse,
Food for thought
A falling away has definitely begun.
But if we want to know precisely when the "catching up" will occur, Paul teaches it clearly:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The first thing to notice is that them that "sleep" are brought with Jesus when He comes.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming/parousia of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The second thing to note is that Christians are "alive and remaining" until the "parousia of the Lord": at which time, the "catching up" occurs, as the Lord descends with them that currently "sleep"
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
There He is, descending with the saints which currently "sleep"
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is the "catching up" which occurs at the "parousia of the Lord" when Jesus descends with the saints who currently "sleep"
Now all we have to do is correlate another event that occurs at the "parousia of the Lord": Paul will explain further in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming/parousia:
The first thing to note here is the effect of the "parousia" of the Lord: at this parousia, we have already learned from the 1st letter that Jesus descends with the saints who are currently "asleep in Christ", and here we learn that at this same time "that Wicked" is consumed by the spirit of the mouth of Christ, and is destroyed by the brightness of the "parousia" of the Lord.
So what we have is this:
The coming of "that Wicked" with all power and signs and lying wonders. This causes an apostacy from the truth as a "strong delusion" is sent on the world, and they "believe a lie"; after this has run its course, the "parousia of the Lord" occurs, as the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, bringing the saints which currently "sleep" with him in an event that is "bright" and destroys "that Wicked"
So we can look for the coming of the "son of perdition" with all power, in order to deceive the world, causing an apostacy from the faith, and to sit in the temple of God claiming to be God, until the parousia of the Lord occurs, when Jesus descends from heaven with the saints who currently sleep being brought with him, in a bright event that reveals and destroys "that Wicked"
End of the age.