Climate Change Hoax Ignored by Obama, Gore and the Elite Media

[thaumaturgy]

Hmm. I am beginning to sense that we are getting to the real reason why you support all this climate nonsense and the government control over the individual that it spawns.

Yes, it's all a major plan to control. Bilderberg group and the illuminati. Yup that's it.

Sorry but I'm afraid the real reason is I have to share the planet with people like you. If we ignore the vast scientific support for anthropogenic global warming we will all have to suffer for the obstinance of a few.

Oh, yeah, and those of us like myself and Baggins and others on here who have earth science degrees and can actually understand some of this stuff , you should just assume we are really in all this so we can control everyone and make the do our whims. It's a "powertrip".

Look, if you don't care about the planet and you don't understand the science enough to mount a credible critique of what the data says don't mind us if we can.

And by perpetrating this AGW fraud it will force an end to it. That is the goal, you know. Its not saving the polar bear, it controlling man.

I'm guessing by your "avatar" picture you have a kid. I don't have any kids. So in reality when I'm gone I don't have any vested interest. It isn't my future generations that will have to live with your decisions. So in reality it isn't going to really affect me one way or another in 40 to 50 years.

I am acting in a way that I feel is right based on the best available evidence.

Let me ask you: do you buy life insurance for yourself to protect your family in an unfortunate eventuality? Might I ask why you do that?

Here's another hypothetical: let's say you take your kid there to 10 doctors and they all run batteries of tests on him and 8 find evidence he has a life threatening disease that can be cured if you act quickly but it will be expensive. 2 of the doctors however say "Nah, we didn't see any real reason to worry."

What would you do? Just wait? Remember, 20% said there's no need to worry.

In all honesty: what would you do?

 

[ArteestX]

You are kidding, right? Cap and trade is not to micromanage me in anyway? They want to charge me more to heat my house. This forces me to turn down my thermostat. That's not micromanaging my life? They want to increase the price of fuel so I'll drive less. That's not micromanaging my life? The whole purpose behind the tax is to micromanage your life. They want to prevent you from spoiling the planet by taking your money.

By this definition, your life is beyond micromanaged. You are charged money to buy gas for your car, and when businesses raise their prices, your behavior on how much you drive will change. How is that any different than a gas tax?

You are already charged money to heat your house, and when that business changes its rates, your behavior will change. By your definition, your behavior is already controlled by the heating company, in what way will cap and trade alter your behavior in ways that it isn't already being altered?

You are already micromanaged with driving restrictions (you HAVE to drive on the right, stop at intersections, can only turn left when the traffic light allows you to, etc.), you are already micromanaged on your 401k (your business tells you what 401ks are available to you, you will be taxed if you try to take your money out early, etc.). By this logic, you are currently micromanaged beyond belief. Cap and trade will hopefully alters people's behavior, but no moreso than how it is altered right now.

 

[HerbieHeadley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzkB5DuveDE&feature=player_embedded

Lord Monckton confronting a member of greenpeace.

 

[thaumaturgy]

There are expert psychics but I don't consult them to find out my future. Climatologists and meteorologists can't tell me what the weather is going to be like next week but they are going to tell me what the weather is going to be like in 10 years?

In science there's often the ability to predict gross behavior of systems far more accurately than individual units within that system.

Let's use an example from gases. In 22.4 liters of a gas at 1 atmosphere pressure and 0degC there's a bit more than 6X10[sup]23[/sup] individual molecules of that gas. That's 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 individual molecules zipping around. Now we can't really say that we know what the speed of any individual molecule is, but we do know something about the average speed of the molecules (actually we tend to calculate something called the "root mean square" of the velocity because it makes the math work out). But in reality there's a distribution of speeds. Some moving faster than others.

Overall the speed tells us something about the amount of energy in the system. And we know a lot about how this gas will behave even though we don't know how fast any individual molecule of the gas is moving!

Climate and weather are related, but because it's hard to predict short-term variability doesn't mean we can't tell something about the gross, overall system-wide behavior.

For instance I grew up in Illinois and there's a lot of evidence that the average daytime high temperature in my home town in mid-December will be about 35degF (I'm just pulling that out of the air for arguments sake, but you could look it up, weather data is out there for this).

That doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that Dec 15th the daytime high will be exactly 35degF!

And I suspect you know this.

Ten years ago they were saying that in ten years, it was going to be too late to do anything. Well, it's been ten years and nothing has been done.

I would like to see that prediction citation. But indeed the climate scientists have been sounding the alarm bells. Interestingly enough when I saw Jim Hansen talk last year here in SoCal he indicated we may have already passed a tipping point. In some sense it may actually be getting to be "too late" in some respects.

The fact is we don't really know when it will be too late....but I bet when it is too late we'll figure it out real fast!

(Is this how you raise your kids? Act however you want and if you pass a point-of-no-return well, I guess that's too bad. I doubt it quite seriously. Do you "micromanage" your kids activities to keep them from doing exceedingly stupid life-threatening things? I rather assume you do.)

One of the things that the folks on your side say is that climatology is in its infancy. It's a new science. But at the same time you are telling me that this infant science is 100% right in its predictions? Well, they haven't been right yet.

No scientist ever claims 100% accuracy.

But as to your claim that they haven't been right? Well, Hansen in 1988 wrote a paper that made various predictions about global climate and some of the models he used actually proved to be pretty accurate over the next 12 years (LINKY). So it would appear you are incorrect in your "blanket statement".

And mind you, Hansen is among the most vocal of the folks ringing the alarm bells. And if he was right then what does that say?

 

[Voegelin]

You write the words "weather is not climate" but you clearly haven't understood them.

How sad

You failed to see who was being mocked. Click into Watts link. They're having a lot of fun with the true believers and their "climate is not weather" chant.

 

[salida]

The global climate farce is the same nonsense they talked about 20 years ago-called the ice age when everything was supposedly freezing. What man won't do to gain control over the masses-lie until their teeth rot. Its the one world government system agenda-to level the playing field-get rid of american sovernty, etc. etc. They want to use ANY excuse to tax people to death and oppress them-don't let the slave drivers do it.

 

[Voegelin]

Good news:

Copenhagen stalls decision on catastrophic climate change for six years

 

[thaumaturgy]

The global climate farce is the same nonsense they talked about 20 years ago-called the ice age when everything was supposedly freezing. What man won't do to gain control over the masses-lie until their teeth rot.

I hope you aren't bearing false witness here. "Lying" is a pretty strong term indicated you think the scientists have been, on the whole, telling you something they themselves don't believe to be true.

Its the one world government system agenda-to level the playing field-get rid of american sovernty,

Sure it is....

etc. etc. They want to use ANY excuse to tax people to death and oppress them-don't let the slave drivers do it.

But, what if you're wrong?

Honestly what if the mass of climate scientists across the globe working over the past couple of decades are right?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Good news:

Copenhagen stalls decision on catastrophic climate change for six years

You better hope it's "good" news.

And what if, during the next 6 years, more and more data come in to indicate we should have acted earlier. It will, of course, be much harsher goals to hit at that time, but, hey we got another 6 years! Yay us.

 

[lordbt]

Your point that oil will never run out before we find an alternative is a nice idea and certainly one people are working on. Are you working on it? I did briefly in my second postdoc. It ain't easy and it ain't guaranteed we'll get it in time.

My point was that oil will never run out. Exhausting it may be a geological possibility, but it is an economic impossibility.

And even if we do we will still probably have to dramatically alter our lifestyle.

I am prepared to alter my lifestyle if the facts of reality demand it, but not if some politician demands it. If the scarcity of a commodity causes the price to rise, I may be forced to limit my consumption. Thats the way it goes. I choose to make my own decisions not have them imposed upon me by the state.

 

[lordbt]

By this definition, your life is beyond micromanaged. You are charged money to buy gas for your car, and when businesses raise their prices, your behavior on how much you drive will change. How is that any different than a gas tax?

You are already charged money to heat your house, and when that business changes its rates, your behavior will change. By your definition, your behavior is already controlled by the heating company, in what way will cap and trade alter your behavior in ways that it isn't already being altered?

You are already micromanaged with driving restrictions (you HAVE to drive on the right, stop at intersections, can only turn left when the traffic light allows you to, etc.), you are already micromanaged on your 401k (your business tells you what 401ks are available to you, you will be taxed if you try to take your money out early, etc.). By this logic, you are currently micromanaged beyond belief. Cap and trade will hopefully alters people's behavior, but no moreso than how it is altered right now.

You are confusing being 'managed' by objective market forces and being controlled by virtue of government fiat. One is the result of voluntary cooperation among individuals and the other by state decree imposed by force. One leaves individual liberty in tact, the other destroys it.

 

[lordbt]

Yes, it's all a major plan to control. Bilderberg group and the illuminati. Yup that's it.

Its not some secret conspiracy, it is out in the open. It is leftists doing what leftists always do: destroying individual liberty in favor of government control.

Sorry but I'm afraid the real reason is I have to share the planet with people like you. If we ignore the vast scientific support for anthropogenic global warming we will all have to suffer for the obstinance of a few.

Oh, yeah, and those of us like myself and Baggins and others on here who have earth science degrees and can actually understand some of this stuff , you should just assume we are really in all this so we can control everyone and make the do our whims. It's a "powertrip".

Look, if you don't care about the planet and you don't understand the science enough to mount a credible critique of what the data says don't mind us if we can.

What would the global temperature have been doing over the past century were man not here? Rising, falling or staying the same? What should the temperature be? Why is warming a bad thing? Is it not better than cooling? Did man cause the last Ice Age? The Little Ice Age? What did? What impact will melting ice caps have on ocean temperature? Why have global temperatures declined in recent years? What if you are wrong?

Let me ask you: do you buy life insurance for yourself to protect your family in an unfortunate eventuality? Might I ask why you do that?

Here's another hypothetical: let's say you take your kid there to 10 doctors and they all run batteries of tests on him and 8 find evidence he has a life threatening disease that can be cured if you act quickly but it will be expensive. 2 of the doctors however say "Nah, we didn't see any real reason to worry."

What would you do? Just wait? Remember, 20% said there's no need to worry.

In all honesty: what would you do?

I make decision based upon my interests and those of my family. What you advocate is something quite different, however. You advocate the state imposing its will upon a free people. Ill take my chances with AGW over that any day.

 

[ArteestX]

You are confusing being 'managed' by objective market forces and being controlled by virtue of government fiat. One is the result of voluntary cooperation among individuals and the other by state decree imposed by force. One leaves individual liberty in tact, the other destroys it.

I just want to be sure I understand this....

A) a business wants more profit from the oil it has left, raises its prices, and you personally change your consumption of oil.

B) a govt wants more taxes to fund alternative energy sources, imposes a gas tax, and you personally change your consumption of oil.

So the first scenario involves cooperation among individuals (even though you didn't ask for the price increase) and is a beacon of liberty, and the second scenario is a forceful impostion that destroys your liberty?

 

[Verv]

My point was that oil will never run out. Exhausting it may be a geological possibility, but it is an economic impossibility.

I am prepared to alter my lifestyle if the facts of reality demand it, but not if some politician demands it. If the scarcity of a commodity causes the price to rise, I may be forced to limit my consumption. Thats the way it goes. I choose to make my own decisions not have them imposed upon me by the state.

And the beauty of it:

The economy will probably determine it, as you poiinted out.

We do not need a politician to determine -- all we need is prices.

Cost/benefit analysis always prevails over the rule of politicians.

 

[XTE]

lordbt thinks only Government takes your money.

Things like "cornered markets" and "over-speculation" and "redundant markets" and "price-fixing" and "patents" and "anti-trust actions" either don't exist to him or are not worth discussing when he has such a simple boogeyman he can only keep thinking about. I never see him bring those up as a problem effecting him or the family he only cares about.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

lordbt thinks only Government takes your money.

Well, the government, thugs and thieves... oh wait, they're all the same thing... anyway, they're the only ones who take it by force.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Its not some secret conspiracy, it is out in the open. It is leftists doing what leftists always do: destroying individual liberty in favor of government control.

Why should corporations keep the liberty to pollute and yet not be held unaccountable for its consequences? That isn't 'individual liberty' at all.

 

[Saving Hawaii]

And the beauty of it:
The economy will probably determine it, as you poiinted out.
We do not need a politician to determine -- all we need is prices.
Cost/benefit analysis always prevails over the rule of politicians.

That's the whole idea behind cap and trade.

You "cap" the total emissions to mitigate the future impacts of climate change. Then you take the hands off the wheel and let market forces figure the rest out. The idea is to let "prices" figure out the Pareto efficient allocation of those carbon emissions.

I don't like it anymore than you do, but we don't have any better options on the table right now. At least I haven't heard of any. The scientific case is pretty clear as far as anthropogenic global warming goes and there's plenty of good academic literature on why market forces are more or less incapable of correcting externalities (which is the case). It's the Tragedy of the Commons redux.

 

[romanov]

No. I entirely disagreed with the notion that a tax would be pointless unless it micro-managed the lives of the masses.

Then what would be the point of cap and trade. If it does not force people to cut carbon emissions then what does it do? And in order to cut carbon emissions you are asking people to radically change their lives. These people in Copenhagen want us to cut carbon emissions back to 1990 levels.

In 1990 there were about 250 million people in America. Now there are about 375 million. So you want 375 million people to put out the same amount of carbon that 250 million people did? And remember 1990: very few people owned personal computers, the internet was in its infancy, no iPods, very few cell phones... So you are going to have force people to give up a huge amount of what they would consider quality of life.

The government wants to put in a smart grid to monitor your electric use and even have the ability cut off your air conditioner or shut down your TV if you've reached your quota. That's not micromanaging?

And all of this is to control one half of one degree that man is supposedly adding to the global temperature.

But I never said I believed Big Oil to be evil and the 'real problem'. I didn't mention it at all. And for good reason, I'm not yet informed enough to make comments about the practices or policies of Big Energy corporate giants. My comments exclusively rested in the domain of AGW and Pivogian taxation to mitigate its effects.

Well, you may not have brought up big energy but Atlas did and I'm proud to know that she realizes who big energy really is.

Here's what I see. The radical environmentalists, the people on the left, the progressives; they hate oil. They hate it. And what they really hate when it comes right down to it is progress. And, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the yahoos in Copenhagen right now... the ones with private jets, limousines, splits of champagne and tins of imported (dolphin safe) caviar. I'm talking about your average, in the street, tree hugging, natural deodorant wearing, environmentalist whack job. You know, useful idiots. These people hate progress.

They talk about all natural this, all natural that, organic whatever, and I'll be honest a lot of the chemicals that people use in their homes, I don't use. It's not that I think they are horrible and should be banned or anything like that, I just chose not to have them in my home. Because, things like baking soda, vinegar and castille soap do the job just as well if not better in some cases. And they cost a boat load less. I go out into the woods and shoot a moose. I want to say this for all the animal lovers, I'm going to go shoot a buffalo. Fish, come from the river. I don't go to lake Safeway. I'm just cheap. I make plenty of money. I'm just cheap.

Here's the thing, you people living in cities, you can't go out and shoot a moose, you can't have a vegetable garden, you can't go scoop a fish out of the river. And if you want to know the truth about organic. It ain't very organic. You want organic, you go back to 150 years ago when people lived to the ripe old age of 40... maybe. That's organic. Just like chollorra is organic. Trichinosis is organic. Salmonella is organic. Typhoid is organic. Tuberculosis is organic. Smallpox, bubonic plague, Spanish flu... ad infinitum. Rotten fruits and vegetables, spoiled milk, and rotten meat in the market are organic. All the things that we don't die of now, are no longer a problem. Why? Electricity, coal, gas, fuel, energy.

Why it doesn't worry you people that the government controls your energy, your food, and they are about to control your healthcare is beyond me. You don't trust big business, you don't trust globalism... not that I do necessarily. But you trust big government. You trust global governance. You trust people thousands of miles away from you making decisions about your life. That's just bizarre.

What's really bizarre is this global governance coming out of Copenhagen is based on science that is not yet settled. It's not. In fact, I know this has been impugned on this thread but if you apply a little common sense to things you read that are unrelated to AGW, you start to get a picture that these scientists really don't know what they are talking about. It's like they found some kind of cash cow. What else can explain a clarion call to reduce carbon output that won't make a lick of difference?

 

[romanov]

Oh a libelous statement I wonder how long that will stay up

At least he has the guts to come out and call named scientists liars most of them are too gutless to do anything other claim that unnamed people are liars.

Who wants to inform Mann that he has been called a liar then, I've saved the web page. I wonder how much money Romanov has

8 days and counting, and I haven't heard from Mann yet. I'm pretty sure I won't. Although it would probably be nice to supeona everything the man has along with his colleagues. At any rate, I digress.

The favorite mantra of the left is, "Bush lied. People died" right? Over and over again you hear that repeated. Well, what did Bush do? He only listened to the intel that he agreed with. That agreed with the final outcome that he wanted. And what else did he do? He silenced those in his administration who said that Hussein has no weapons of mass destruction. Technically speaking, he didn't lie. But millions of people will agree that he did.

What does Mann and company do? Selectively use the data that they want to use that will support the outcome that they want. They silence those who disagree with them. Now technically speaking you can say that he didn't lie. He just went with the crowd. Why did he go with the crowd? Probably has something to do with the millions of dollars in grant that go to global warming alarmists but not to the people on the other side. It might have something to do with tenure. Ask any professor who advances the theory of intelligent design. How many of those folks get tenure? And don't give me the argument that anyone who discusses the possibility of intelligent design isn't a true scientist. I have a video of Richard Dawkins speaking of the possibility of intelligent design.

So "Bush lied, people died", right? Because you don't like him. In your eyes Mann is like a "little angel coming to save the world from the stupid people".

He fabricated outcomes. He selected one tree out of thousands. His hockey stick has been disproven five or six times. They hid data, they deleted data. They even put their data in their code. That's a big no no. You do not plug data into your code. Your model and your data has to be separate. Your model has to run on its own. Gee, I don't know maybe that's why their collected data post 1961 doesn't work with their models; because their models are tainted.