Climate Change Hoax Ignored by Obama, Gore and the Elite Media

illudium_phosdex

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Why do libertarians seem to have a pre-disposition to see every government action as some sort of statist conspiracy to seize more power and micro-manage the lives of the masses? No doubt that there actually are statists who think just that. But not everything that requires state intervention is a hoax, conspiracy or unnecessary intrusion. Cap-and-Trade is a case of Keynesian economics, not an attempt to micro-manage your life to the slightest detail.

You are kidding, right? Cap and trade is not to micromanage me in anyway? They want to charge me more to heat my house. This forces me to turn down my thermostat. That's not micromanaging my life? They want to increase the price of fuel so I'll drive less. That's not micromanaging my life? The whole purpose behind the tax is to micromanage your life. They want to prevent you from spoiling the planet by taking your money.

Another way to look at it is, if you are correct, if it is not an attempt to micromanage your life, if it is not to get you to change the way you currently live your life, then it what you are saying is that it IS just a money making scheme. You've just admitted that it is exactly what everyone on your side of the argument has been arguing against. You just admitted it is a hoax and a money making machine. Otherwise, the tax has no point.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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:confused:

How do these arrests of protestors support a claim of worldwide scientific/governmental conspiracy?


I don't know, jailing dissenters for preemptive reasons kind sounds to me like the government might be trying to silence dissent. :D
 
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illudium_phosdex

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97% of climatologists don't think it's a hoax.

When you want to learn the truth, do you consult the experts in their field?

Or inflammatory talk radio hosts?

There are expert psychics but I don't consult them to find out my future. Climatologists and meteorologists can't tell me what the weather is going to be like next week but they are going to tell me what the weather is going to be like in 10 years? Ten years ago they were saying that in ten years, it was going to be too late to do anything. Well, it's been ten years and nothing has been done. Suddenly we have to do something in the NEXT ten years or it will be too late. One of the things that the folks on your side say is that climatology is in its infancy. It's a new science. But at the same time you are telling me that this infant science is 100% right in its predictions? Well, they haven't been right yet.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You are kidding, right? Cap and trade is not to micromanage me in anyway? They want to charge me more to heat my house. This forces me to turn down my thermostat. That's not micromanaging my life? They want to increase the price of fuel so I'll drive less. That's not micromanaging my life? The whole purpose behind the tax is to micromanage your life. They want to prevent you from spoiling the planet by taking your money.

I'll admit that I've innocently overlooked those effects when choosing my words. Thanks for pointing it out. But yes, it will affect you. It will affect everyone. And that's precisely the point. Because AGW affects everyone. Or would you prefer to take your chances with the weather?

Another way to look at it is, if you are correct, if it is not an attempt to micromanage your life, if it is not to get you to change the way you currently live your life, then it what you are saying is that it IS just a money making scheme. You've just admitted that it is exactly what everyone on your side of the argument has been arguing against. You just admitted it is a hoax and a money making machine. Otherwise, the tax has no point.

Ummm... no. The tax would still have a point even if it were not to micro-manage your life. It would be to reduce the negative externalities associated with greenhouse gas emissions, thereby decreasing added social costs that are placed on top of economic costs and profits. That is, in general, the very purpose of such a tax.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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Read what bt wrote. It's all a big conspiracy to control the individual.

:confused: Okie-dokie, Voegelin. I don't see how the arrest of protestors indicates communist distortion of science, but apparently you do. Paranoia will destroy you as well.

And what of the "free speech zones" erected by Bush? Does that make Bush a communist?

Yeah, it certainly makes him a statist. Did you think it was right for Bush to erect free speech zones? I didn't. There is absolutely no difference between the Bushes and the Obamas. Both sides of the "liberal/conservative" spectrum are statists. They just want statism in different aspects of your life. Unfortunately, until people realize that there is no difference between the two dominant parties in the US, we are going to continue to move toward tyranny.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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I'll admit that I've innocently overlooked those effects when choosing my words. Thanks for pointing it out. But yes, it will affect you. It will affect everyone. And that's precisely the point. Because AGW affects everyone. Or would you prefer to take your chances with the weather?



Ummm... no. The tax would still have a point even if it were not to micro-manage your life. It would be to reduce the negative externalities associated with greenhouse gas emissions, thereby decreasing added social costs that are placed on top of economic costs and profits. That is, in general, the very purpose of such a tax.

Ok, ok, ok, you have just said I am right. That is a start. Now, you have to see what the real problem is. Now, you believe the real problem is big oil. Big oil is EVIL and seeks to shut down alternative means of transportation, power and that which drives the engine of our economy. Ok, now you have to understand, to really get the root of the problem who big oil is. Specifically who is big energy? You think for about five minutes on that. Let's see if you can tell me who big energy really is.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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It appears to me at least that more Conservatives than Socialists (at least in the US) tend to be Creationists, and yet somehow Socialists are guilty of distorting science to advance an agenda? Are you honestly prepared to argue that every climatologist - nay, the majority of climatologists - are Socialists?

Yep, absolutely! That didn't take very long.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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The proof of such an allegation, however, is still pending. :thumbsup:

And certainly nothing in the leaked emails verifies such spectacular claims of vast Communist conspiracy.

No, first answer the question. Who is big energy?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Ok, ok, ok, you have just said I am right. That is a start.

No. I entirely disagreed with the notion that a tax would be pointless unless it micro-managed the lives of the masses.

Now, you have to see what the real problem is. Now, you believe the real problem is big oil. Big oil is EVIL and seeks to shut down alternative means of transportation, power and that which drives the engine of our economy. Ok, now you have to understand, to really get the root of the problem who big oil is. Specifically who is big energy? You think for about five minutes on that. Let's see if you can tell me who big energy really is.

But I never said I believed Big Oil to be evil and the 'real problem'. I didn't mention it at all. And for good reason, I'm not yet informed enough to make comments about the practices or policies of Big Energy corporate giants. My comments exclusively rested in the domain of AGW and Pivogian taxation to mitigate its effects.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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No. I entirely disagreed with the notion that a tax would be pointless unless it micro-managed the lives of the masses.



But I never said I believed Big Oil to be evil and the 'real problem'. I didn't mention it at all. And for good reason, I'm not yet informed enough to make comments about the practices or policies of Big Energy corporate giants. My comments exclusively rested in the domain of AGW and Pivogian taxation to mitigate its effects.

Dude! Don't you realize you are not cooperating with me trying to make the point I'm trying to make? *shrugs* I'll make it anyway.

Big energy is the government. It is the governments of all the oil producing countries like Venezuela, Iraq, Iran and company. It is also the government of the oil buying countries including the US. You have to go to the government for all manner of leases and permits just to drill for oil or dig for coal on your own land. And guess who you have to pay royalties to if you should happen to strike oil or hit coal? That's right, the government. If you want to open up a power plant of any description, you have to go to the government and then pay them untold sums of money in taxes.

Do you really think that the government is going to give up that much money and power? Judging by past history, I'd say that is a big fat zero. Tax and cap is just another money making scheme of the government.
 
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USincognito

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There are expert psychics but I don't consult them to find out my future.

Good, because all psychics are fakes. Climatologists are real sceintists though.

Climatologists and meteorologists can't tell me what the weather is going to be like next week but they are going to tell me what the weather is going to be like in 10 years?

This meme is a load of manure. Contemporary meteorolgy is a highly integrated and sophisticated sicence. Satellite imagery and predictive models are very accurate. Forecasts as far out 7 days that you see on the news tend to be more accurate than people think since they remember the few misses and ignore the hits that constitute the vast majority. Forecasts beyond that tend to be less accurate because of the chaotic nature of weather patterns. And there's the problem with what you've asserted - Climate is not weather.


You had some straw men in there, but as far as the alarmism goes, I agree.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Dude! Don't you realize you are not cooperating with me trying to make the point I'm trying to make? *shrugs* I'll make it anyway.

Big energy is the government. It is the governments of all the oil producing countries like Venezuela, Iraq, Iran and company. It is also the government of the oil buying countries including the US. You have to go to the government for all manner of leases and permits just to drill for oil or dig for coal on your own land. And guess who you have to pay royalties to if you should happen to strike oil or hit coal? That's right, the government. If you want to open up a power plant of any description, you have to go to the government and then pay them untold sums of money in taxes.

As I earlier remarked my awareness of energy corporations and the regulations that bind them is too poor to even make a comment on this. Don't think I wasn't trying to cooperate with you. It's your point to make.

Do you really think that the government is going to give up that much money and power? Judging by past history, I'd say that is a big fat zero. Tax and cap is just another money making scheme of the government.

And what's so bad about the Government - particularly the heavily in debt US government - making money from a legitimate Keynesian policy? It's not as if they are trying to enforce something entirely unnecessary and totally outrageous that does not make any sense or is unjustifiable. It makes economic sense. Why should corporations be exempt from accountability for the externalities that their profit-generating enterprises cause? In the end, someone has to pay for the added cost these externalities pose, and if its not the corporation that does so then it is the public. Unless you believe Coase theorem can save us. But someone is yet to make an argument for how it would even operate in this situation.
 
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Voegelin

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lordbt

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Why do libertarians seem to have a pre-disposition to see every government action as some sort of statist conspiracy to seize more power and micro-manage the lives of the masses? No doubt that there actually are statists who think just that. But not everything that requires state intervention is a hoax, conspiracy or unnecessary intrusion. Cap-and-Trade is a case of Keynesian economics, not an attempt to micro-manage your life to the slightest detail.
Why do leftists seem to have a pre-disposition to see every government action as a means of distributing smiles and sunshine to the masses? Is there a government action you would oppose on the grounds that such decisions be left to the individual?.
 
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Baggins

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Archaeopteryx

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Why do leftists seem to have a pre-disposition to see every government action as a means of distributing smiles and sunshine to the masses?

They don't.

Is there a government action you would oppose on the grounds that such decisions be left to the individual?.

Many.
 
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"From the “weather is not climate” department. 815 new snowfall records, 304 low temperature, and 403 lowest max temperature records were set this week . . ."

Lots of new cold and snow records in the USA this past week. « Watts Up With That?

Below is the difference between weather and climate. I post this in the hope that I dont have to correct the next mis-informed poster who claims there is no global warming because it snowed in Houston.....


Weather is what conditions of the atmosphere are over a short period of time, and climate is how the atmosphere "behaves" over relatively long periods of time.

NASA - What's the Difference Between Weather and Climate?
 
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thaumaturgy

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"From the “weather is not climate” department. 815 new snowfall records, 304 low temperature, and 403 lowest max temperature records were set this week . . ."

Lots of new cold and snow records in the USA this past week. « Watts Up With That?

At the beginning of this post you, yourself, point out that weather is not climate, so I have to wonder why you posted it?

How's this:

From the Julia Child Cookbook is NOT a Climate textbook: saute the garnish of mushrooms and garlic separately.

Take that anthropogenic global climate change skeptics! ha! FTW.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Baggins, as usual, wasnt making a point. He was hurling insults. So there was nothing for me to rebut. Obviously oil is a finite resource, but I was commenting on the notion put forth by thaumatergy that the US was "going to use it all up." Oil will never be all used up.

OK, here's a rather subtle and important point. Speaking as a geologists (and mind you, I'm not a practicing geologist like Baggins, so you should listen to him before me, but here goes)

Oil is like so many other geologic resources, of varying grades. You seem to be aware of the fact that as the "easier" oil gets depleted the stuff left over is harder to come by. This is something we all learn in our Economic Geology class.

But the curve of cost isn't necessarily linear and it isn't necessarily an assumption that we will be able to make use of the material available. At some point just because it's "down there" doesn't necessarily mean we can "get it back out".

Currently in the U.S. we have passed peak production almost 40 years ago. IF, however, you want to pay say about $30 a gallon for gas here in the U.S. you might wish to "use" the U.S. oil available. But even then at some point we will run out of the stuff that can even be accessed.

On top of that the North Sea oil fields are probably at peak production and on the decline. We are left largely with the oil in Saudi Arabia and the Middle East that we know of. However our friends there have been rather opaque on what their reserve estimates are. In fact we don't really know how much they have left. It is in their interest to tell us there's plenty more, and some experts feel they may not be telling us what their real reserve estimates are.

Your point that oil will never run out before we find an alternative is a nice idea and certainly one people are working on. Are you working on it? I did briefly in my second postdoc. It ain't easy and it ain't guaranteed we'll get it in time.

And even if we do we will still probably have to dramatically alter our lifestyle.

But here's another wrinkle: if we run out of cheap oil that doesn't just impact our ability to drive around gas guzzlers....it dramatically impacts just about every item you have in your home. We live in a "Plastic Age" (as the Buggles said) and that isn't just a metaphor. It's a reality. I am sitting in a cubicle and a vanishingly small amount of the material I interact with and use in my daily life is inorganic in nature.

Plastic comes from oil.

In fact a huge amount of the organic chemistry that underlies our lives comes from oil.

So you and your friends find an alternative energy source. It better be fast enough to leave us with sufficient cheap oil to afford cheap organic chemicals as well.

You speak as if it is simply "a foregone conclusion" we will be able to easily transition to an alternative to oil. But I can tell you, as a chemist, it isn't going to be an easy transition. It may be a very scary time.
 
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