Can anyone on the Christian forum, with all great theology, great knowledge, even having faith that could remove mountains, be anything, without charity ? The answer is no, the answer is also because knowledge puffs up.

Faith only works through love, Apostle Paul tells how he is crucified with Christ, so Christ lives in him, and the life he now lives he lives by the faith of the Son of God who loved him, and gave Himself for him. ( FAITH WORKS BY LOVE/BELIEVING IN AND BEING EDIFIED BY CHARITY/LOVE.)

God RICH IN MERCY, for HIs GREAT LOVE WHEREWITH HE LOVED US, even when dead in sins, ( in UNBELIEF/IN LAW.) has quickened us together with Christ, ( BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED.) and has RAISED US UP together, made us sit TOGETHER in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for ever God will show the exceeding RICHES OF HIS GRACE AND HIS KINDNESS toward us THROUGH CHRIST JESUS, for you are SAVED BY GRACE through FAITH, not of yourselves, it is he GIFT OF GOD. Not of WORKS, or any man should BOAST. ( knowledge PUFFS UP. )

Faith alone wont save you. ( having all faith and not having charity, is NOTHING.)

A man may say he has works. He wont show faith without works. (of faith.) But we can show our faith by our works.


Jesus told those of the LAW, to not labour/WORK, ( as it PERISHES.) but for what endures unto EVERLASTING LIFE, ( WHICH THE SON OF MAN SHALL GIVE NTO YOU, THE SON HAS BEEN SEALED BY THE FATHER.)

The LAW Jews did not accept or understand, and ask again, what WORK to do the WORKS of God ?

Jesus answers them again, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE ON HIM WHO HE HAS SENT.

Those of LAW=no FAITH, required a SIGN, which they wanted to SEE, and BELIEVE, they ask what WORK Jesus did ?

Instead of believing in the testimonies of Christ, the LAW asks questions, and Jesus later answers them how He goes HIs way, ( THIS IS HIS WORK.) and then they still seek Him. ( THOSE OF THE LAW SEEK GOD/JESUS CHRIST IS GOD.) and they shall DIE in their SINS. ( unable to go WHERE HE IS.) They are told they die in their sins BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN WHO HE IS.





John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I HAVE WORKS: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.




Our Maker, ( Christ made all things.) is our husband and our redeemer, the God of the whole earth He is called.

God tells us how this is as the waters of NOAH unto Him, as God had SWORN that the WATERS OF NOAH should no more go over the earth, so God has SWORN that He will no longer be angry with us. HIs COVENANT OF PEACE shall not be removed from us, neither IS KINDNESS depart from us, says the Lord that HAS MERCY ON US.

These are the children to be ALL TAUGHT OF THE LORD, in RIGHTEOUSNESS established, the heritage of the servants of the Lord. ( THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OF HIM, SAYS THE LORD.)

Jesus speaking to those of THE LAW, ( who in the same chapter 6 were told what the work of God are, and to NOT LABOUR for what they LABOUR FOR, IN THE LAW.) tells them no man can come to Him, but t believe in what was WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS, ( and the law.) they shall all be taught of God, EVERY MAN THEREFORE THAT HAS HEARD. ( BY THE HEARING OF FAITH TO RECEIVE THE SPIRIT, NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW. Galatians 3:2-5.) Jesus tells VERILY, HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.





Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.


Isaiah 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.




John the Baptist tells of the Baptism that Christ will do, along with the WATER BAPTISM that John did for them, it is to BAPTISE THEM WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND WITH FIRE.

The end times now, many false prophets rise to deceive many, and the love of many has gone cold. INIQUITY ABOUNDS AS FAIT WORKS BY LOVE/CHARITY EDIFIES/KNOWLEDGE/of the LAW, PUFFS UP.)

This Gospel of the Kingdom ( FAITH AND CHARITY.) is preached IN ALL THE WORLD, then the end shall come.

Then any man saying this is their idea of Christ. ( PREACHING ANOTHER JESUS. (2 Corinthians 11:4) BELIEVE IT NOT.

False Christs and false prophets to deceive the very elect if it were possible.

Jesus compares Noah to deter us from these deceivers, so focus on the preaching RIGHT NOW with ME, as the days of NOAH, so ALSO the coming of the Son of man SHALL BE. They did not know when the flood came, they had no faith as Niah had, so were all took away, Noah entered the ARK.

Watch, as we do not know the day nor the hour the Son of an comes.





Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.




Again in Luke, Jesus Himself this time speaks of the FIRE He came to SEND ON THE EARTH/ THE BAPTISM HE HAS TO BE BAPTISED WITH. ( to be ACCOMPLISHED.)

WATCH WITH ME, the days came we desire to SEE one of the days of the Son of man and we shall NOT SEE IT. THey shall say to us SEE, but we are to not go after them nor follow THEM.

Jesus tells us HOW TO WATCH, as in the days of Noah, when NOAH by faith entered the ARK, and LOT LIKEWISE, the SAME DAY Lot went out of Sodom it RAINED FIRE, from heaven and destroyed them all. EVEN THUS SHALL IT BE WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED.





Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.




If you are WATCHIONG with me, ( IN FAITH.) then hear what Christ did for us, the JUST for the UNJUST, to bring us to God, put to death in the flesh and quickened by the Spirit.

By that death He went and preachd to us spirits who were in prison, which were disobedient, ( such as the old world disobedient and all got flooded but NOAH.) and Noah and the souls with him were saved BY WATER.

The LIKE FIGURE now SAVES US, the answer of a good conscience BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST. ( BAPTISM SAVES US BY WATER BAPTISM AND THE HOLYGHOST/FIRE BAPTISM. That is the saving we see in BOTH NOAH AND LOT, WATER BY NOAH AND FIRE BY LOT.)

The FALSE PROPHETS TEACH AGAINST THIS FAITH, but NOAH AND LOT ARE TAUGHT AGAINST THEIR LAW, and also the angels that sinned did so by UBELIEF, NOT BY LAW AND WERE JUDGED FOREVER TO BE CAST INTO FIRE...





1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

I had previously mentioned to my friend @MarkRohfrietsch and my other Lutheran friends such as @Ain't Zwinglian and @ViaCrucis and I think also my Anglican friend @Shane R that the Orthodox form of the Hail Mary tends to either be identical to the Roman Catholic one, or so similar in wording as to be effectively the same, but that there are Theotokia (Marian hymns) and antiphons in the Octoechos, or Eight Tones, the hymnal of eight weeks, that look very much like the Lutheran form of the Hail Mary in that they lack the request for intercessory prayer. However, I could not remember exactly where these were. While reading the Vespers for Sunday (said on Saturday) in the Eigth Tone I came across it, known as the Angelic Salutation.

Glory from the Menaion, if appointed, otherwise:​

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen​

​

Theotokion:​

O unwedded Virgin! * thou who ineffably conceived God in the flesh, * Mother of God Most High: * accept the supplications of thy servants, O all- immaculate one, * granting unto all cleansing of transgressions; * and, accepting now our supplications, ** pray thou that we all be saved.​

​

“Now lettest Thou Thy servant depart ...,” (the Evangelical Canticle known as the Song of Symeon, from Luke ch. 2, also known as the Nunc Dimitis) followed by the Trisagion. Then, the Angelic Salutation:​

O Theotokos and Virgin, rejoice, * O Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; * blessed art thou among women, * and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, ** for thou hast borne the Savior of our souls. (This is normally repeated thrice)​

Note: If it is a regular Sunday Vigil, we chant “O Theotokos and Virgin ...,” (Thrice). If it is one of the 12 great feasts, we chant the Troparion of the feast (Thrice). If it is a Sunday coinciding with some other feast, we chant “O Theotokos and Virgin ...,” (Twice), and the Troparion of the Feast (Once).​

Thus we can see from the above rubrics that the Lutheran form of the Ave Maria does indeed have ancient Patristic precedent, even though the majority of Theotokia do indeed contain petitions, such as the one preceding the above. We can also say Martin Luther’s use of the Ave Maria mirrors the use of the Angelic Salutation in the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov (which is the closest Orthodox equivalent to the Rosary, consisting of typically 100 Angelic Salutations, along with the Our Father, and the Nicene Creed, prayed on a special leather Lestovka that normally costs around $200, but I was able to get one at a parish sale for $10 in a real stroke of luck; the lestovka being the traditional leather alternative to the prayer rope used by both the schismatic Old Believers but in much larger quantities by canonical Russian Old Rite Orthodox in Russia, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus and possibly Georgia, and in at least one parish in the United States (we also have some schismatics in Woodburn, Orgeon, who are of the “Priestless” variety believing the last canonical bishop died in the 18th century, meaning no Eucharist, a very sad condition; I would love to see an effort made to evangelize them, for indeed the Church of the Nativitiy in Erie, PA, was until the 1980s a Priestless parish), which was the norm before the Nikonian form introduced the Greek prayer rope; the original form of Lestovka has different sections for different prayers, for example a counter for 40 Kyrie Eleisons, a section for counting how many times one has Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian said repeatedly during Lent, with prostrations, a section for the Jesus Prayer, and other things; indeed there are so many different counters on the standard Lestovka that one can use it as a kind of analogue computer on which to implement a wide range of prayer rules, by using one section for multiplication and another for addition.

Of course, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox also use a regular English translation of the Ave Maria with intercessory prayers (this being the official English version used by the Syriac Orthodox), or add “Most Holy Theotokos, save us” to the Orthodox Angelic Salutation, and the antiphon “Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior, save us” is commonly heard during the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and there are other prayers of specific Marian devotion that usually feature intercessions in both the Byzantine (Eastern Orthodox) and the various Oriental Orthodox liturgical rites (Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopian) and there is also the Western Rite Orthodox Communion. And a great many Theotokia from the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy closely resemble the Angelic Salutation in structure, while containing intercessions as well as material proper to the liturgical occasion.

Thus hopefully my confessional Lutheran Orthodox friends will now feel confident if anyone challenges them on the antiquity of their version of the prayer - the correct answer is that the version of the Ave Maria prayed by Martin Luther very closely resembles the ancient Orthodox prayer known as the Angelic Salutation, which is probably a common ancestor of both the Western Hail Mary and of many of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox liturgical and devotional hymns to the Theotokos. In turn, the Angelic Salutation like other older Marian hymns such as All of Creation, by St. John of Damascus (used in the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, as well as the newer and somewhat more commonly heard It Is Truly Meet used in place of All of Creation during the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, written by an anonymous Athonite monk, which is still a thousand years old, but not from the eighth century) or Blessed Are You, O Mary, a late fifth/early sixth century hymn by the Syriac Orthodox hymnographer, St. Jacob of Sarugh (known as the “Flute of the Spirit: for his metrical homilies and hymns complemented those of the fourth century Harp of the Spirit, St. Ephraim the Syrian) show a common lineage back to the ancient Greek hymn Sub tuum praesidium , which survives on a third century papyrus, but could be much older, and was revitalized in the West by a plenary indulgence in the Roman Catholic Church in the 18th century, while the Eastern Orthodox have for at least a thousand years or so used this prayer at the end of Vespers, and the Armenians use it in Compline:

Beneath thy compassion,​

We take refuge, ​

O Theotokos: ​

do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:​

but rescue us from dangers,only pure one, only blessed one.​

A particularly beautiful class of such hymns, those of which without intercessions might be of great interest to my Lutheran friends, are the Stavrotheotokia, which are hymns which pertain to the real and sorrowful moment when the Theotokos was with our Lord at the food of the Cross, at which time he made St. John the Beloved Disciple her adopted son (I suspect this was as much for St. John’s benefit as it was for hers; if we consider the very long life St. John enjoyed, before becoming the only Apostle to not be martyred but to repose of natural causes, and the short life expectancy of Galilean fisherman due to the dangerous nature of the work and the severe weather the Sea of Galilee remains notorious for even now, and the intemperate nature of St. John and St. James the Great during their formation which caused our Lord to give them the loving and gently amusing nickname “Sons of Thunder” (which is a testament to the gentle nature of Christ our True God, who had a sense of humor but was not cruel about it, nor, in seeking to guide his disciples in the formation of their character, did he resort to cruel manipulations but rather lovingly catered to the needs of each one), and also our Lord holding St. John at the Last Supper - it seems to me probable St. John and St. James were teenagers, and St. John was perhaps between the ages of 13 and 15 - this I should stress is a theologoumemnon, a theological opinion, and in this case a private one, and not an example of the many theologoumemna which are not official church doctrine but are the prevailing view among members of the Orthodox Church.

I would like to thank my friend @MarkRohfrietsch in particular for stimulating my curiosity and prompting me to research this interesting area of liturgical history, which I think Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox participants in Traditional Theology, and also our other participants, such as those from the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches, should all find beneficial (and we should try to get some more members of traditional churches - we need more Oriental Orthodox, some members of the Assyrian Church of the East or the Ancient Church of the East, some Old Catholics, perhaps some Moravians, some traditional liturgical Methodists, some liturgical Congregationalists and Reformed Catholics whether from the Reformed Episcopal Church or from liturgical Congregationalist parishes or Scoto-Catholic parishes in the Presbyterian tradition, and others…

*The number of these prayers varies slightly between the Old Rite and Sabaite-Studite typikon used with regional variations in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, half of the Estonian church, Japan, the surviving parts of the Chinese Orthodox Church not exterminated under Mao, and with more extensive variations, in Serbia, Montenegro, Georgia, Mount Athos, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Church of Sinai. In North America, the Sabaite-Studite Typikon is used by the massive OCA diocese in Alaska, founded by Russian missionary St. Herman of Alaska in the late 17th century, and home to saints such as St. Peter the Aleut, a 15 year old boy leading a fishing expedition who was martyred by Spanish officials in San Francisco in the 18th century, and St. Innocent of Alaska, and the recently glorified St. Olga, and by those Russian Orthodox parishes of the Orthodox Church in America on the Julian Calendar, and also by ROCOR, the Patriarchal parishes, and the Serbian and Georgian Orthodox. The formation of the Edinovertsy also provided a basis with Russian Orthodoxy (and by extension, Antiochian Orthodoxy) for the formation of the Western Rite Vicarates.