MarkSB said:

It seems kind of pointless to say its unaffordable when the money was just spent elsewhere.

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Yup. Foolish things like food and housing

d taylor said:

I have made my post if you do not believe what is written, then look somewhere else.​

Israel is God's chosen people and they are a different set of people than the church.

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Respectfully, I cannot accept an assertion without an argument. If you can provide an exegetical argument from Scripture demonstrating your view, I will gladly consider it.

The material you've shared reflects a dispensational framework. That system is not self-evident. It requires defense, not assumption. It is, of course, your prerogative not to engage in debate, but one must then ask what the purpose of your comments is. Simply restating a conclusion without textual argumentation is not discussion; it's declaration. And to characterize disagreement with your interpretation as "not believing what is written" is neither accurate nor charitable. It is not disbelief in Scripture to question your reading of it.

Your sources contain several interpretive problems:

1. They introduce a category confusion between covenantal and ethnic "people of God." Matthew's Gospel expands the definition of "His people" through the narrative itself. As I noted previously, passages such as 20:28 and 26:28 clearly have in view not ethnic Israel, but the believing community united to Messiah, both Jew and Gentile. See also 3:9, 8:11-12, and 12:48-50. Matthew himself excludes any restriction of "His people" to Israel alone.

2. The sources provided misuse σῴζω ("to save"). The claim that "save from sins" refers to national deliverance from Gentile rule is linguistically indefensible. Within Matthew, σῴζω consistently denotes spiritual or moral deliverance, not political liberation (cf. 9:2, 18:11, 26:28). When paired with ἁμαρτία, the semantic field is always moral, never geopolitical.

3. The context is ignored. The salvation described in 1:21 is grounded in the incarnation ("God with us," v. 23), not in future conquest. Furthermore, 1:1 presents Jesus as "the son of David, the son of Abraham." The Abrahamic covenant ("in you all nations shall be blessed," Gen. 12:3) already signals a universal horizon, not a Jewish-only expectation.

4. The hermeneutic used is anachronistic. Reading later dispensational constructs back into Matthew, particular the "Church-age interruption," is not textually derived. It is imposed from a later dispensational system. Matthew's narrative was written after the Church's founding. Matthew's audience would have understood "His people" as the new-covenant community, comprised of Jews and Gentiles together, not a postponed ethnic nation-state.

I've twice asked whether you believe, as your view seems to imply, that Gentile salvation was a contingency plan. The question remains unanswered. If Matthew 1:21 awaits fulfillment until Israel's national repentance, then Jesus has not yet saved anyone "from their sins." This directly contradicts 9:6, 26:28, and 27:51, which all portray His atoning work as the realization, not a delay, of 1:21.

So, the issue here is not disbelief in what is written, but a commitment to read what is written as written, within its own context and linguistic integrity. I'm glad to continue the discussion if you wish to engage the text itself.

RDKirk said:

A story:

I was taking a logic curriculum in college that required an early survey of philosophy course that was taught by the dean of the philosophy department. I signed up for the course and quickly learned that I was the only student enrolled. That would mean the offer would be withdrawn, but it best fit my intended schedule to take it that semester so I went to the professor, Dr Goldstein, to see if I could take it by independent study and testing,

"No," Goldstein said firmly, it was a course that must be taught by lecture. So, I said something about being disappointed that it would not be taught that semester. "Oh, I'm teaching it," he said. Even if to only one student, he was going to teach it. By lecture. We held the first couple of sessions in a classroom, just him and me. Then we mutually agreed that was dumb, so I just went to his office.

In that private setting, we learned we were both Christian, which rather surprised me, given his name. As it turned out, he had been born and raised Jewish. But he'd become disillusioned by Judaism and turned to atheism. But he had found atheism philosophically unsatisfying and had spent more than a decade traveling the world and investigation all sorts of religions.

Eventually, he looked into Christianity, which he'd previously avoided because he'd "heard enough" about Christianity just being in the US. But it hadn't taken him very much study into the New Testament to realize...there it was. There it had been all along.

So, that "survey of philosophy" course actually turned into "the ways all the other philosophies get it wrong."

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It sounds like you found the right teacher. I agree and I think we can reason our way to God and the foot of the cross.

bèlla said:

If you’d bothered to read his post (#126) you wouldn’t be asking that question.

As for the second, I’ve posted numerous examples of the policies Trump supports that were proposed by the Heritage Foundation. I didn’t rely on the mandate alone and shared additional items that weren’t included in the document with a summary and link where they can be read in full and screenshots too. Which includes welfare, education, social security, disability, veterans, government employees and more.

To confirm his alliance with the organization I provided recent pieces that include his acknowledgment of their connection. All of which you can find in my history. Unlike most, my position isn’t political and I have no difficulty addressing wrongs from either side. Nor am I a fan.

My position on him remains unchanged and I’ve said all along the main benefactors of his administration are the wealthy and that’s usually the case for both. The only difference is the narrative. They’ll always eat. I don’t have a problem admitting that nor will I ignore it to gain ground on the issues that may concern christians. But everyone gauges wins differently.

If you want to debate right and left I’m not your candidate nor do I care for either.

~bella

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“Believing in” a politician isn’t a phrase most Christians use comfortably, so I wanted to understand what you meant.

As for the Heritage Foundation, it’s a policy think tank that’s existed for decades — their publications and proposals are not the same thing as executive action. You’re right that Trump, like most conservative candidates, uses their materials sometimes as a framework, but that’s a long way from saying the Foundation itself is his administration or that its interests automatically “benefit the wealthy.” That claim deserves more nuance.

And respectfully, the broader assumption that Republicans or conservatives exist primarily to enrich the elite is out of step with reality. Many are ordinary people who tithe, give generously, and volunteer in their communities. It’s unfair to paint them all as if they were some monolithic upper class exploiting everyone else.

I’m not here to argue for blind loyalty to anyone, but I do think we should guard against cynicism that lumps all policy motives together. Christians should be able to disagree politically without assuming the worst moral motives behind one another’s conclusions

bèlla said:

That’s a sweeping generalization which doesn’t hold true for all. Bernaud Arnault is the 8th richest man in the world and all of his children work for the firm and that’s fairly common. Larry Fink is another example. He’s the CEO of BlackRock and has three children and didn’t grow up wealthy. None of them work for him. His eldest founded a company in the sector. The second is a philanthropist who aids creatives and the third is involved with the arts.

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I'm sure their executive positions have nothing to do with nepotism. I didn't say the wealthy don't work hard, but there's far more to achievement than hard work.

bèlla said:

Nevertheless, if their parents wanted a different reality for them that’s okay. You can’t impose your standard on other people’s children if their behavior isn’t illegal. You’re welcome to disagree of course but that’s all. The only reason it’s being discussed is because of the money.

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Sure, but pretending that wealth is a product of personal merit is absurd. And a death tax is an entirely reasonable way of returning wealth to the general pot rather than it becoming increasingly concentrated by a handful of people who can afford to tilt the game in their favor.

bèlla said:

How conversant are you on the subject of black wealth? Specifically the sort that isn’t tied to celebrity or entertainment. I’m not dismissing the other. But I want to be sure you’re aware that black wealth existed before and after Jim Crow. It isn’t a topic that’s frequently discussed hence the question.

~bella

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Exceptions are not relevant to general trends. And the fact that you immediately jumped to that field appears to be a tacit admission that there have been systemic issues and instead of seeking to make redress you want to excuse the experience of the common black person in favor of focusing on exceptional cases. Nearly every statistic has outliers.

BCP1928 said:

OK, that's fine. I can only speak to the subject of achieving precise work using hand tools based on my own experience. If everybody here disagrees with me I don't care because I can still get paid for actually doing it. I suppose you could get more money than I do because you have your "common sense" which beats training and experience every time, right?

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But then by the same logic I can quote experts in the field which agree with me and beat your expertise lol. If citing experts is the way to win an arguement.

BCP1928 said:

I don't know, but you are the one who brought up pre-flood civilizations.

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Not in the way your talking. I simply mentioned that the idea of a culture having advanced knowledge and being wiped out in a fairly short time is plausable considering the massive floods that happened around 10,000 years ago. But lost advanced knowledge is not dependent on some flood. Just that they had knowledge and for whatever reason they disappeared.

BCP1928 said:

No, I was here the whole time but early on I was just interested in countering the fatuous nonsense you were peddling about what precision is in a general way and how it is achieved both in the modern day and in the past.

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Then you know we were deep into the science and not some fantasy. Disputing the precision is about the science and we were debating the technical aspect of precision. This was for a major part of the thread. But most of my posts were about the out of place images based on reverse engineering the marks on the stones. Nothing to do with any Atlantis.

BCP1928 said:

Nobody says measuring the vases was a "speculation." See, what your sources have shown is that Naqada craftsmen may have produced objects with tools and techniques we don't know about.

You are the one who went on to insist that not only do we not know how it was done but that it was impossible for them to have done it because their society was "too primitive."

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But thats factual not spectulation. Fact we found the vases with the Naqada culture. Fact the are at a level that required some sort of lathing due to their high symmetry and circularity. Fact they did not have lathes or the potters wheel.

tdidymas said:

No, the lampstands are the churches - see Rev. 1:20, it's defined clearly.

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That is because the churches have the Holy Spirit.

Do a study of Zechariah 4.



These seven are depicted as the LORD.


The Holy Spirit is depicted as a lampstand or the seven eyes of the LORD. In the Book of Revelation, Jesus is depicted as having the same Holy Spirit.


Candles or fire represent the Holy Spirit. The true church is represented as candles because they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

But when talking of an individual in the church. It refers to removing the Holy Spirit.

Fervent said:

You're asking the question, which did you have in mind?

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I've asked her three times to explain what she meant when she said that. She's unable or unwilling to explain herself.

bèlla said:

That’s your agenda not mine.

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A legitimate question asking you to explain a cryptic thing you said is not an agenda. It's a question.

bèlla said:

What you fail to understand is my lack of persuasion.

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What I fail to understand are the sentences you type.

Chesterton said:

I have no idea. I'm curious to find out, but I don't think she knows what she meant.

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You're asking the question, which did you have in mind?

Fervent said:

In the name of, or in alignment with?

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I have no idea. I'm curious to find out, but I don't think she knows what she meant.

Chesterton said:

What do you suppose he's going to do in the name of Christian principles?

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In the name of, or in alignment with?

Bradskii said:

This matter was raised in Australia. And it was proposed that when my wife and I shuffle off and leave out house to the kids then the value would be taxed.

Ain't no way. We worked very hard indeed to buy that house and we gave up a lot to pay the mortgage. Which went up to 17% at one point. All the money that went into that property was what was left after we had already paid a sizeable chunck of our wages in tax. Would the government want to tax me twice?

Granted that it's now worth a very large sum of money but the principle stands.

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This is precisely why systemic prejudices continue on. Those who have benefited from generational growth of wealth pass those privileges on rather than expecting their offspring to show their merit by building their own wealth. Those who were subject to policies like redzoning and other discriminatory policies that prevented them from building wealth have nothing to pass on, and are more likely to fall into a debt trap because of predatory lending practices.

Here are 2 stories I heard from a friend...

Literacy is Useless...

Klaus and Dieter, two recent arrivals from eastern Germany, were eager to immerse themselves in Viennese life.

The tram hummed past, its red and white silhouette gliding along the grandeur of the Ringstraße. Klaus and Dieter stepped onto the pavement, the scent of roasted chestnuts curling through the crisp autumn air.

“Vienna,” Klaus muttered, drinking in the golden domes, the baroque facades, the precision of order embedded in every corner. “This ain’t Karl-Marx-Stadt.”

Dieter, watching a violinist echo delicate notes beneath the shadows of Saint Stephen’s Cathedral, replied, “No, it most definitely is not.”

They wandered past cafés glowing in soft lamplight, velvet booths cradling slow-moving conversations. Everything was elegant—too elegant for them. So they peeled off and found a pub.

Inside, they spoke loudly, disturbing the silence. Their gestures were sharp, unfamiliar. The bartender poured their beers with with politeness.

Their chatter swung from rock music to money and gambling, then plunged into sneering tirades about literacy—mocking bookworms, scoffing at libraries, and dismissing reading as a useless pursuit. Their laughter echoed through the bar, loud and jarring.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Coincidentally, an educational TV segment flickered behind them. The host posed a question: “What does counter-clockwise mean?” Dieter asked the bartender, who pointed to his left. Facing him, Klaus and Dieter saw it as right. Then they glanced at the mirror across the bar, where the TV’s reflection showed the host gesturing to the audience’s left—which also appeared as right. Two gestures, both reversed, both seemingly aligned. “He is right!” Dieter exclaimed.

By the third week, their pockets were thinning. They needed a source of income, but job prospects were slim. One night, after splitting a single beer and catching the bartender’s suspicious glance, Klaus leaned in and whispered, “We’re not gonna make it playing by the rules.” Dieter didn’t argue. That week, they stopped looking for work and started looking for weaknesses—unlocked doors, distracted clerks, routines that could be exploited. They weren’t tourists anymore. They had become predators.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Several days later, under the murky guidance of bravado and a pirated security manual, they found themselves in the back office of a local insurance firm. The door had been forced. The hallway was scanned for cameras (they missed one—infrared, dome-mounted). Their objective: disable the alarm before the motion sensors picked them up.

The alarm system was basic but functional: a mechanical rotary bypass control beneath a protective panel, illuminated by glowing instructions. Printed in clear language: "Turn selector switch counter-clockwise to disarm alarm. Auto-reset active after 30 seconds."

They turned the knob clockwise, mistaking it for counter-clockwise. The control panel let out a faint click. Then came the siren—shrill, unmistakable. A red light blinked furiously.

Ten minutes later, they were surrounded by police.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


How to get rich without knowing anything
At the age of 21, Jack Williams finally graduated. But it's not from university that he graduated, it's high school.

Although Jack was not stupid, his parents spent so much time in making money that there was no time left for their son. He'd be lucky if they'd spend more than 5 minutes each day to his studies or anything whatsoever. As a result, Jack didn't perform too well at school. He could barely read. At home, he spent all his time playing video games.

Jack has the least interest in appearance or clothing. He rarely combed his hair and always wore very, very shabby clothes.

While he was at school, he was often ridiculed by other classmates who consider themselves very "in". Those classmates love the latest styles and fashions.

After leaving school, Jack tried to look for a job but couldn't get one. He was jobless for a long time. He applied for many positions but got nowhere, it's little wonder -- he rarely arrived on time due to sleeping in.

One day , on the street, Jack met the head teacher from his school - Julie Leading.
"Hi Jack, how are you getting along?"
"Hey, Miss Leading...so nice to see you again.... I am trying to find a job, but...."
After hearing Jack's difficulties, she advised Jack to consult a fortune teller. She also passed the contact details to him.
Later that day, once Jack got home, he called the fortune teller.

"Who is it?"
"I need a fortune teller to advice me how to get rich...without knowing anything."

"How to get rich without knowing anything??? ....Oh, yes, your name, please?" the fortune teller inquired.

"Jack," he responded.
"Ah...What time tomorrow would suit you?"

The fortune teller arranged the appointment time and ended the call saying, "Be punctual, Jack."
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

However, the following morning, Jack overslept. When he woke up, it was already past the appointment time. Deciding to continue his sleep, Jack resolved to visit the fortune teller the next day instead.

When Jack finally arrived at the fortune teller’s office, she greeted him with a stern look. "You should have called to reschedule," she scolded, her eyes narrowing. "You caused me to lose a few clients."

With a sigh, the fortune teller beckoned Jack to sit. "What brings you here today? You're the guy...who wants to get rich without knowing anything, right?? You came to the right place." she asked, her tone softening slightly.
"I love clients who don't know anything...", the fortune teller murmured to herself.
After a generous dose of sweet, vague talk which meant nothing, the fortune teller advised him to buy crystals.
Jack bought some crystals from her, hoping they would bring him good fortune.

As Jack left , he felt a renewed sense of determination and hope. The fortune teller's words and the crystals he now carried drove him to feel confident about his future.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

One day, he saw a job ad in the paper, it was published by iClub.