Sure.Why don't you explain the difference for us?
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Let's start with the times of the Gentiles. When will it be over?
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Sure.Why don't you explain the difference for us?
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You really, really need to study more because you are so wrong on so many levels.Rapture Wimpism
Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.
In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.
There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.
But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.
The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.
God has promised...:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.
But the promise is only for those who refuse to be “rapture wimps.”
Hey Steven,
Am I to understand you, that you are stuffing words in my mouth. If not, can you please show my quote that causes you to draw such a conclusion.
Additionally, am I to understand you have not addressed the issue of the great multitude in heaven at the marriage supper that returns to earth with the Messiah.
Replacement theology doctrine is man-made.
There are two resurrections in John chapter 5.
The first resurrection in chapter 5 is in John 5:24, which is the process of being passed from death to life, upon coming to faith in Christ.
It is a spiritual resurrect.
The second resurrection in chapter 5 is in John 5:27-30.
It is the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.
John also recorded Revelation chapter 20. (That is a hint.)
The time of "the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, which is right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
Because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
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Hmmm.
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
It says these individuals were beheaded for their witness. That is definitely physical. Seems awfully forced to turn this into a metaphor. That is not remotely similar to the language John used in his gospel. Then it goes on to say,
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
That term "the rest" is a direct link making it impossible to view these in two different senses. Either they are both spiritual or both physical, but you can't separate them.
Sure.
Let's start with the times of the Gentiles. When will it be over?
When Jesus Comes in His Power and Glory, there will only be Catholic converts where the Jewish people, and their children, once stood. The Blessed Mother says its all Catholic on the other side of Armageddon. Jesus will Rule the world, with and through His Church, the Catholic Church. Jesus Tremendous Power, through miracles, signs and wonders, will be a tremendous light to the nations. The nations will stream to the Church, through the gates of Baptism, to be with Jesus.
Hello CW,
The Blessed Mother says its all Catholic on the other side of Armageddon. Jesus will Rule the world, with and through His Church, the Catholic Church. Jesus Tremendous Power, through miracles, signs and wonders, will be a tremendous light to the nations. The nations will stream to the Church, through the gates of Baptism, to be with Jesus.
Jesus tells us that, His Apostles will Rule over the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and be His witness to the Jewish People, when He Restores Israel. The New Jerusalem, which comes to earth at the end of the Book of Revelation, is Jesus' married to His Church. There are not going to be any Jews in the Restored Kingdom of Israel.
We will be in Christ's Kingdom Come, living under Messianic Reign, as the Catholic Church. The Jewish Church will be nothing but history.
Well, this is awkward. I'm not sure if you just don't know, and I owe you an apology or whether you are jerking my chain. I would say this would be when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.If we use pure logic, which is not pretrib logic, and the words of Christ found below, the last Gentile will be saved the day of Christ's Second Coming, right before He returns.
You're pretty logical, so it's possible that you can pick up on this.Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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Well, this is awkward. I'm not sure if you just don't know, and I owe you an apology or whether you are jerking my chain. I would say this would be when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
You're pretty logical, so it's possible that you can pick up on this.
NOW IS COME SALVATION. What do you think is going on?
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
If you look over in Rev 6 you will see the signs of Matt 24. You will also see THE STARS FALL FROM HEAVEN. That is when Satan is cast down. Here we see that there will be believers alive at the coming of Christ and salvation.
Matt 24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
So the question is who overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb. Those that overcame him by the blood of the lamb are the ones that were being accused when Satan was accusing them before our God day and night. That mean when he was in the presence of God..........not when he was cast down. So the ones that overcame him by the blood of the lamb were the ones being accused by him day and night BEFORE he was cast down.
After he was cast down, he went after the woman..........ISRAEL.
Rev 12Are you saying that Satan is now in heaven in the presence of God, and Christ, and the souls of our dead Brothers and Sisters?
Notice that chapter 12 comes after "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
The book is not in chronological order, because we also find the birth and death of Christ in chapter 12.
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Rev 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Sorry........I was not very good with my tenses.
Everyone thinks that these verses mean that Satan is cast out of heaven and goes after the Church.
The ones that overcame him by the blood of the lamb were the ones that were being accused before he is cast out of heaven. Once he is cast out, he goes after Israel as both the church and the 12 tribes that are scattered will have received SALVATION at His comingS.
It all depends on where the emphasis is placed in the passage.
Did you also consider the following?
Can you have the time for the dead to be judged in the verse below, without a resurrection of the dead? This occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The judgment of the dead comes at the end of Revelation 20.
Based on the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Based on Matthew 25:31-46, no mortals will be left alive on the planet after the sheep and goat judgment. The beginning of the passage indicates it occurs at the Second Coming.
This agrees with 2 Timothy 4:1.
Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.
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Hello CW,Hey Steven,
First, let me say that I am very, very impressed that you, being Catholic, would quote so many scriptures. Usually, Catholics stay far from the Bible as when they read the Bible, they tend to leave the Catholic church. You seem to have this grand ending for the Catholic church all worked out. I think there will be a different ending. Let's take a look at the woman that dresses in purple and scarlet
and has a golden cup in her hand.
Yes, but now you're running from the actual passage. I want to know why you've chosen to believe one part of the passage is spiritual and the other physical. Try to focus like a laser on the actual text itself.
Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Focus on the term, "the rest." What do you think that means? The rest were not resurrected until after the thousand years.
You're suggesting it is proper to ignore this term. Can you explain why? So far you've merely ignored this passage and hopped to other texts.
So, your advice to folks here is not to place our faith in anything you have to say?I do not care one scintilla of a bit what that individual has to say.
Stop placing you're faith in man and commentaries.
No. Actually that is what you are saying.So, your advice to folks here is not to place our faith in anything you have to say?
Fair enough. I'm Happy to oblige.
I think there will be a different ending. Let's take a look at the woman that dresses in purple and scarlet
and has a golden cup in her hand.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
That's the living saints and the dead saints...the unsaved are not judged at this time which Rev 20 also shows.