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Featured Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for three days ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Robin Mauro, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Thank you for taking the time to post this. It is certainly worth more study and thought.

    I still do not understand the purpose of an eternal torment however. It would seem more in line with God's mercy to punish the wicked, then put them out like one would put out a light (if you don't believe in restoration for all).
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)



    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?


    Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


    Addressed here:

    Matthew 7:21-23:
    how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

    Addressed here:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.


    A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.


    That passages opposes your theories:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compare:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

    Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
    Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?



    Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

    Early church opposition to endless hell


    In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

    Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

    It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.


    None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


    All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism


    ---


    Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

    The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
    "And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

    Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

    Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

    Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

    Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
    "And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word "all" occurs twice in parallel in Roman 5:18. The words "the many" occur twice in parallel in Romans 5:19:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    How "many" humans does the "all" of v.18a & v.18b include, Der Alter? All of them (as in 100%), or "many" of them (as in less than 100%)? Do you think that "all" in v.18 refers to 100% of humanity or "many" of humanity?

    Does "all" in verse 18 include Jesus?
    Does "all" in verse 18 includes unborn babies?
    Does "all" in verse 18 exclude any other humans?

    Does "all" in v.18a refer to the exact same "many" humans as "all" in v.18b?

    Does "all" in v.18a include exactly the same number of (& the very same) "many" humans as "many" in v.19a? Does "all" (v.18a) equal "many" (v.19a)?

    Does "all" in "all have sinned & come short of the glory of God" (Rom.3:23) include 100% of humans, including Jesus & babies, or "many" humans?


    Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Epistle of Barnabas' (70-135 AD)
    15:7-8 Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world.

    Clement of Rome (d. 99 AD)
    1 Clem 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.
    1 Clem 19:2b and let us look steadfastly unto the Father and Maker of the whole world, and cleave unto His splendid and excellent gifts of peace and benefits.
    1 Clem 19:3 Let us behold Him in our mind, and let us look with the eyes of our soul unto His long-suffering will. Let us note how free from anger He is towards all His creatures.
    1 Clem 27:2 He that commanded not to lie, much more shall He Himself not lie: for nothing is impossible with God save to lie.
    1 Clem 29:3 And in another place He saith, Behold, the Lord taketh for Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man taketh the first fruits of his threshing floor; and the holy of holies shall come forth from that nation.
    1 Clem 36:4 but of His Son the Master said thus, Thou art My Son, I this day have begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the Gentiles for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession.
    1 Clem 52:1 The Master, brethren, hath need of nothing at all. He desireth not anything of any man, save to confess unto Him.
    1 Clem 53:4 And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living.
    1 Clem 53:5 O mighty love! O unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them.
    1 Clem 54:1 Who therefore is noble among you? Who is compassionate? Who is fulfilled with love?
    1 Clem 56:1 Therefore let us also make intercession for them that are in any transgression, that forbearance and humility may be given them, to the end that they may yield not unto us, but unto the will of God. For so shall the compassionate remembrance of them with God and the saints be fruitful unto them, and perfect.
    1 Clem 59:4 We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners; raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.

    Sibylline Oracles (80-195 AD)
    And God, immortal and omnipotent, will grant another gift to these pious
    persons: when they will ask him, he will grant them to save the human beings
    from the fierce fire, and from the otherworldly [αἰώνιος] gnashing of teeth, and
    will do so after pulling them out of the unquenchable flame and removing
    them [ἀπὸ φλογὸς ἀκαμάτοιο ἄλοσ’ ἀποστήσας], destining them, for the sake
    of his own elect, to the other life, that of the world to come, for immortals
    [ζωὴν ἑτέραν καὶ αἰώνιον ἀθανάτοισιν], in the Elysian Fields, where there are the
    long waves of the Acherusian Lake, imperishable, which has a deep bed.
    (2,330–338)

    Apocalypse of Peter (c. 100-150 AD)
    Then I will grant to my called and elect ones whomsoever they request from me, out of the punishment. And I will give them [i.e. those for whom the elect pray] a fine baptism in salvation from the Acherousian Lake (which is, they say, in the Elysian field), a portion of righteousness with my holy ones (ApPet 14:1, translating the text as corrected by M. R. James and confirmed by SibOr 2:330-338).

    Bardaisan of Edessa (154–222 AD)

    "But whenever God likes, everything can be, with no obstacle at all. In fact,
    there is nothing that can impede that great and holy will. For, even those
    who are convinced to resist God, do not resist by their force, but they are
    in evil and error, and this can be only for a short time, because God is kind
    and gentle, and allows all natures to remain in the state in which they are,
    and to govern themselves by their own will, but at the same time they are
    conditioned by the things that are done and the plans that have been conceived
    [sc. by God] in order to help them. For this order and this government that have
    been given [sc. by God], and the association of one with another, damps the
    natures’ force, so that they cannot be either completely harmful or completely
    harmed, as they were harmful and harmed before the creation of the world.
    And there will come a time when even this capacity for harm that remains in
    them will be brought to an end by the instruction that will obtain in a different
    arrangement of things: and, once that new world will be constituted, all evil
    movements will cease, all rebellions will come to an end, and the fools will be
    persuaded, and the lacks will be filled, and there will be safety and peace, as a
    gift of the Lord of all natures." (Laws of Countries, 608–611 Nau)

    Clement of Alexandria (150-215) “And not only for our sins,'-that is for those of the faithful,-is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, 'but also for the whole world.' He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves, converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily He saves with dignity of honour; so 'that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;' that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life." (Fragments, 1:3, c. 2, v. 2)

    Origen (c. 184 - c. 253) "So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him 'all,' and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is 'all in all.' And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be 'all in all'" — De Prinicipiis 3.6.3

    Didymus the Blind of Alexandria (310/13 ca.–395/8 AD)
    This is said about rational creatures [τῶν λογικῶν]. Since, among all of them, there are also some who have become wicked, know how these will have a restoration [κατάστασιν] once they have arrived in the hands of the Son, obviously after rejecting the evilness [κακίαν] that they had, and assuming virtue [ἀρετήν]. For one should not pay attention to those who propound sophisms, claiming that only those rational beings who have sanctity [ἁγιότητα] are called. [In Comm. in Io., fr. 2]

    It is impossible that wood, grass, and straw disappear in such a way as not to exist any more, but sinners will disappear insofar as they are grass and so on. Indeed, this fire of the corrective punishment is not active against the substance, but against habits and qualities [sc. bad habits and qualities]. For this fire consumes, not creatures, but certain conditions and certain habits. [Comm. in Ps. 20–21 col. 21,15]

    “Gregory of Nyssa (A.D. 330-394)
    A certain deception was indeed practised upon the Evil one, by concealing the Divine nature within the human; but for the latter, as himself a deceiver, it was only a just recompense that he should be deceived himself: the great adversary must himself at last find that what has been done is just and salutary, when he also shall experience the benefit of the Incarnation. He, as well as humanity, will be purged.” (The Great Catechism, 26, newadvent.org/fathers/2908.htm)”


    "the originator of evil himself will be healed” (Catechetical Orations 26. The Catechetical Oration of Gregory of Nyssa. Edited by James H. Srawley. Cambridge, 1903, p. 101).

    ‘For it is evident that God will, in truth, be ‘in all’ then when there shall be no evil seen in anything. … When every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body, then shall the body of Christ be subject to the Father. … Now the body of Christ, as I have said often before, is the whole of humanity’ (Orat. in I Cor. xv.28).


    Early Church Writings Fathers:
    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
    Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
    Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, hell, punishment, doctrine) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
    Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
    Universalism...First 500 Years
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Deceptive, ridiculous, uninformed objection which has been refuted countless times before. Endless repetition of false arguments does not make them true. The historical Jewish sources I quoted; Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud are historical records of how the Jews interpreted their OT scriptures and their faith and practice based on their interpretation of scriptures.What I quoted was not myths and and legends.
    .....Jesus taught about "eternal punishment,"' hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" etc. to Jews but He never corrected or criticized the Jewish belief in hell. If they were wrong, as you claim, why didn't Jesus correct them when He taught about the fate of the unrighteous? Jesus criticized the Jewish leaders several times why didn't He criticize their belief in hell?

    I quoted from the Encyclopedia Judaica and you blow it off as "unproven and irrelevant" and uninformed. What is irrelevant is your argument about myths and legends The Jewish understanding of their Hebrew scriptures is not myths and legends.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    •Ÿ Another copy/paste from one of your pet UR sites with no comments to indicate what these quotes are supposed to support or refute.
    •Ÿ You demand that I include the Greek when I quote the ECF but you do not do what you demand of me.
    •Ÿ You blow off my quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud as myths and legends but accept without question anything the ECF write, no matter how obscure the writer is, as long as it seems to support UR assumptions/presuppositions.
    •Ÿ And you reject any ECF writing which disproves false UR teaching as mistranslation.
    •Ÿ You have yet to prove from any credible source that anything I have posted is wrong.
    •Ÿ Let me know when you present a valid response which does not include all the specious arguments I have addressed here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?

    Clearly the opinions of the anti-Christian Jews you quoted were wrong about the Messiah in their rejection of Jesus Christ and Christian truths based on the OT. So why should they be right about the things you quoted them saying? In fact Jesus warned about the teachings of the Pharisees, who BTW appear to have believed in endless punishment:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Furthermore, your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".



    Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?



    A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before: Early church opposition to endless hell

    If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?



    "the Jewish belief in hell"? There was only one such belief c.30 AD? What was that? Where is your evidence of this one unified Jewish belief believed by - all - Jews c.30 AD? Or is that another myth among the many other myths from you already quoted in this post & yours which it is replying to?

    I posted:

    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.

    False. You had stated:

    No doubt the Jews had varying beliefs about hell, not just one belief. Even your own post acknowledged that.

    There's no such thing as a unified "the Jewish belief in hell". There have been, are and will be many different Jewish beliefs, ideas & theories re hell. Ditto for Christianity & other religions. Including ideas re a temporary hell & hell as a place where sinners get saved, etc. Even your own post on Jewish beliefs speaks of hell being temporary & people coming out of hell. Even Biblical Universalism acknowledges hell postmortem (Hades, Gehenna, the lake of fire), so any of your mere references to "hell" by anti-Christian Jews are irrelevant as far as refuting the Scriptural teaching of the ultimate reconciliation of all humanity is concerned. That is, besides the fact that anti-Christian Jewish opinions are not inspired, inerrant, or Scripture. And why do you even bother with them after you yourself stated:

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers

     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nope, not a "copy/paste from one of [my] pet UR sites".

    When you claim ECF quotes you posted contain the word aionion, is it unreasonable to ask for evidence supporting your claim?

    See my previous post in this thread.

    Where did i ever say i "accept without question anything the ECF write"?

    Does that sentence make sense? What are you trying to say?
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I posted:

    Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?

    Der Alter replied:

    The answer to that is another topic (already addressed elsewhere) than your post with quotes from anti-Christian Jews. You also posted some Scripture verses & then concluded Jesus' "teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell". You reach this conclusion because some of Jesus' words bear some similarity to what the Jewish quotes say, even though they are still quite different and don't arrive at the same conclusion of "eternal hell" which Jesus rejected. If Jesus meant to affirm a belief in "eternal hell" in an anti-Christian Jewish writing, why didn't He use the exact words? Or did He mean to reject their teaching by rejecting the language they used which affirms "eternal hell"?

    Yet you have provided no evidence that the particular Jews Jesus was speaking to in any specific Scripture context held to such a belief at the time Christ spoke to them c. 30 AD. In fact you stated that there were a variety of beliefs among the Jews about the afterlife. So which of the various beliefs was Jesus supposedly affirming or rejecting? How would you know unless you compare some of the other Jewish views? Did they also use some phrases that were similar to Jesus' statements? If so, then how do you know which of the various Jewish views Jesus was rejecting or affirming?

    I did read it. Your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".

    Of all your quotes from anti-Christian Jews, only one of them speaks of an eternity of pain, assuming it is even correctly translated. None of the others refer to "eternal hell". So you are basing your argument on a single Jewish quote. And is this quote merely an interpretation of, or quote, from an apocryphal Jewish writing, Judith, rejected by the Jews from their canon? Was it written at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD) or generations or centuries apart from Christ's time? Your answer is the Judith quote is "according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era". So where is your evidence of a Jewish belief in "eternal hell" at the time of Christ?

    I posted:

    Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?

    Der Alter replied:

    There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
    The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

    Judith an "Apocryphal book".
    JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    "Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
    The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

    "The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
    The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

    "The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

    "Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

    "The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
    Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

    "The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

    Speaking of legends:

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    I posted:

    A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not necessarily equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before: Early church opposition to endless hell

    If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?

    Der Alter replied:

    On this forum are Christians talking about the same things. Does that mean they all believe in an "eternal torture chamber"? Yet that's what your argument amounts to. Lame.

    I just used your same method to argue against your conclusion. First you assume Jesus believed in "eternal hell". Then you assume He confirmed a belief in "eternal hell" allegedly believed by an ancient Jewish apocryphal author just because he used some similar but different language as Jesus did. Yet the Jewish author's words, if they were properly translated, clearly affirm "eternal hell", while Jesus' words do not.

    Why would He leave out the most important part, the part about an eternity of pain, if He was wishing to affirm a Jewish person's belief in an eternity of pain? Clearly He didn't mirror the beliefs of the Pharisees, since He rejected a number of their beliefs, for He warned against the teachings of the Pharisees:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).

    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)


    ---

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    All of your objections re: the books of Judith and Enoch are irrelevant. Both are quoted in the 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia and both are included in the 1917 Jewish Publications Society translation of the Tenach, i.e. OT. At the time of publication of the JE and JPS, both books were evidently considered to be canonical. Anything you say is meaningless. That is just your UR indoctrination talking.
     
  15. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    While I hate to intrude on such a lovely party, I would like to come in and wonder out loud about something, hope to get an answer.

    I really would like for Patristic Universalism to be the truth, and I have to say that ClementofA does a nice job of presenting rational apologia for the idea.

    That said, I find it hard to understand two things:

    1.) Just looking at people in this world who absolutely love sin and hate God (along with anything to do with Christian morality) I have a hard time thinking that these people will be somehow changed in the next life. It certainly seems to me that they are going to hold onto their hatred of Christ forever rather than repent, either here or there.

    2. I know this is a question that is posed over and over and over again. It seems to me that the wicked, those who choose to enjoy their passions and wickedness in this life get the best of this deal. Some scourging, a period of pain, maybe even intense, and then **BOOM** they are cleansed, forgiven, and have the same relationship with Christ as those who have turned from sin in this life.

    I know....dumb questions, but something that is troubling me nonetheless. I probably have the wrong view of Patristic Universalism.

    So correct me, please.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <LOTE>While I hate to intrude on such a lovely party, I would like to come in and wonder out loud about something, hope to get an answer.
    I really would like for Patristic Universalism to be the truth, and I have to say that ClementofA does a nice job of presenting rational apologia for the idea.
    That said, I find it hard to understand two things:
    1.) Just looking at people in this world who absolutely love sin and hate God (along with anything to do with Christian morality) I have a hard time thinking that these people will be somehow changed in the next life. It certainly seems to me that they are going to hold onto their hatred of Christ forever rather than repent, either here or there.
    2. I know this is a question that is posed over and over and over again. It seems to me that the wicked, those who choose to enjoy their passions and wickedness in this life get the best of this deal. Some scourging, a period of pain, maybe even intense, and then **BOOM** they are cleansed, forgiven, and have the same relationship with Christ as those who have turned from sin in this life.
    I know....dumb questions, but something that is troubling me nonetheless. I probably have the wrong view of Patristic Universalism.
    So correct me, please.<end>

    I have asked this question many times and only once did I get a reply and that was a copy/paste from another site. In the US the recidivism rate is 67+% , out of 100 criminals released from prison more than 670 of them will return. Most of them blame everyone but themselves for their fate; Judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. and often try to harm those whom they blame.

    .....Those who are condemned to "eternal punishment" in the lake of fire, when they are released, will they suddenly be filled with warm fuzzies and love God? If so, how does this happen when it rarely happens in this life? Will God suddenly change their minds and hearts, so they are filled with love and purge their memories so that they will not remember the punishment?
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No doubt others have expressed similar concerns about an ultimate reconciliation of all.

    To Your second point, LOTE, AFAIK some ECF Universalists such as Origen & others of his school of thinking thought salvation of the most wicked would not occur until eons had passed. I'm not familiar enough with the Universalist theology of Gregory of Nyssa to say if he was also of this opinion.

    Regarding those who "love sin", it seems we have some premortem biblical examples of such where Love Omnipotent was still able & willing to save them, even those who had apparently known the truth & chosen apostasy (1 Tim.1:19-20):

    1 Cor.5:3b ...I have already pronounced judgement on the one who did this, just as if I were present 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Eternity is a long time. People may hold onto their love of sin for decades, but holding onto it for an eon or two, let alone an infinite number of eons, may be of a higher degree of difficulty. Especially when they are up against an Almighty Being whose will is their salvation, Who is a love that burns more powerfully and longer than the sun.
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From 1-3 above it follows that

    4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
    5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
    6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
    7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
    8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
    9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
    10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.

    Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

    "God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    ------------------------

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    -----------------


    "God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

    "Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
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  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've answered such as the following to you at least 5 or 10 times, as my files prove (see several examples below:

    It seems they will "come to Him" & "be ashamed" of themselves:

    Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

    And he that "comes to Him" shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).

    Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.



    What does that have to do with the topic? God has all eternity to reconcile the lost.

    Since they're saved, they'll be as happy with God as anyone else whom God has saved and allowed (or caused) to suffer, whether in this life or postmortem. Such as Job.

    If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven



    In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved.

    Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.


    The same way everyone changes. How did you change? How did serial killer, Christian murderer & Christian Inquisitionist (of both men & women), Saul, who became the Apostle Paul, change?

    In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

    How? You can leave that to God, but it is clear from Scripture that Love Omnipotent uses punishments to correct people. I suggest reading the entire Old Testament & New Testament passages such as 1 Cor.5:4-5:

    4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Proverbs 23:14
    Strike him with a rod, and you will deliver his soul from Sheol.

    Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

    Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

    Isaiah 12:1
    Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

    Hosea 6:1
    "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

    18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
    34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
    36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
    37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

    When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

    1 Cor.11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.



    See the verses above. Once they're saved, they'll be as happy with God as anyone else whom God has saved and allowed (or caused) to suffer, whether in this life or postmortem. Such as Job & those of the verses i quoted earlier.

    In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

    continued next post...
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Suddenly? Who said that? Compare this unpleasantness:

    1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    In 1 Tim.1:19-20 Love Omnipotent is still trying to save those who have become apostates.

    If that's the rate for a few years or decades in mere human prisons, what would be Love Omnipotent's rate when He has all power & all eternity to change those in His prisons?

    Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

    "God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    ------------------------

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    -----------------


    "God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

    "Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Suddenly? Who said that? Compare this unpleasantness:

    1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    In 1 Tim.1:19-20 Love Omnipotent is still trying to save those who have become apostates.

    Who said that? Is that what you think is happening here:

    1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    If God doesn't change hearts, do you think men are going to change them all by themselves without God?

    Who said men are puppets without free will?



    Free will.

    Also without the knowledge of evil, how would humans ever know what is good?

    God does force Himself into people's lives in this life. It's called a conscience. And the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And the gospel. And He also uses relationships between people. And the evidence of creation, etc.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself that question, since you're the one who believes He's going to torture them forever.

    Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save them. Do you think anyone can reject Him an infinite number of times? That's mathematically impossible.
     
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