If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Randy777]

LOL -

I suppose one could think of another being a MONSTER, when the other DEMANDS they be accountable and responsible for their OWN choices.

Seriously, WHO wants to be accountable OR responsible for their OWN choices....WHEN it is SO MUCH EASIER to blame another?

In this world...
A man is not responsible for pulling the trigger....it's the guns fault.
A man is not responsible for committing crimes....it's the drugs fault.
A man is not responsible for not feeding his children....it's everyone else's fault for not giving him food.
A man is not responsible for rejecting GOD...
It's Gods fault for not forcing him to believe.

LOL ~ The workings of the Carnal Mind and its conclusions are not news.
But thanks for continually reaffirming how much your carnal mind benefits you, in avoiding responsibility for your own choices.

God Bless,
SBC

Even Moses tried to blame the people for making him frustrated and angry enough to strike the rock but he was held responsible by God for what he did not what the people did.

Conclusion:we are responsible for what we do not what others do. And others are responsible for what they do not what we do.

 

[SBC]

Even Moses tried to blame the people for making him frustrated and angry enough to strike the rock but he was held responsible by God for what he did not what the people did.

Conclusion:we are responsible for what we do not what others do. And others are responsible for what they do not what we do.

Correct!
God made man and gave him his own life.
1 Cor 14:34
Blood is the life of man.
1 Cor 14:34
God made souls.
Isa 57:16
All souls belong to God.
Ezk 18:4
By Gods breath, he brings mans life into living
Psalm 33:6

A man with his LIFE (blood) has the freewill to Choose to Heartfully Believe in God OR NOT.
Joshua 24:14-15

A man without his LIFE is a dead man and knows nothing.
Ecc 9:5

Correct.
Men with their own LIFE (blood), ARE responsible for their OWN CHOICES.

Men are also responsible for NOT CHOOSING God.
Luke 11:23
He that is NOT with me, IS Against me.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

After a wicked person has been tormented in fire for an indeterminate time will they be rehabilitated and filled with warm fuzzies and love for God who punished them or will they do what most criminals do today?

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save them, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

 

[2tim_215]

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Psalm 94:2-10 (KJV)
2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.
3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph?
4 How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?
5 They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage.
6 They slay the widow and the stranger, and murder the fatherless.
7 Yet they say, The LORD shall not see, neither shall the God of Jacob regard it.
8 Understand, ye brutish among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise?
9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see?
10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?

Revelation 6:9-13 (KJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
There's a lot of wickedness that has gone on in the world, and it will not go unpunished. You can blame God for all the evil man had done to himself, but those individuals who chose to do it could have chosen not to do it. The ones who chose to perform that evil are the ones who are the Monsters.

 

[Shempster]

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save them, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

Right on.

"His mercy endureth forever" ................(unless you failed to love him)
What?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save them, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

Who created hell? What does God say in Scripture about Himself? Did the prophets lie? Did Jesus Himself lie? If we don't base what we believe on God's Word, but on man's traditions and lies, God isn't required to honor it.

 

[Der Alte]

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save them, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

Ignores my post and does not address it in any way. Since you are so convinced that UR is correct you should be able to engage in a dialogue, answer my questions and specifically refute my arguments instead of merely posting your assumptions/presuppositions over and over.
.....Please show me one verse where "Love Omnipotent" is speaking where He says that He will save all mankind, that those who do not repent before death He will save after death? Instead of the same old nonsense about "Love Omnipotent" and milk cartons. I can't find the term"Love Omnipotent" anywhere in scripture.

 

[mkgal1]

Who created hell?

You mean, "hades"? God did ("hell" is something different...and not created by God).....but who ALSO descended there and broke its hold over humanity?

From IconReader------>
Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,​

And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
-Paschal (Easter) Hymn

Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.~The Resurrection | Icon of Victory​

What does God say in Scripture about Himself?

Say? What did He (in Jesus) reveal about Himself? Didn't John sum it all up when he wrote:

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him".~John 3:17​

Did the prophets lie? Did Jesus Himself lie? If we don't base what we believe on God's Word, but on man's traditions and lies, God isn't required to honor it.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you care to clarify? I completely agree with you on basing what we believe on God (and what He's revealed to us) instead of man's traditions and lies.

 

[Shempster]

I like 1Tim 4:10
Young's Literal Translation
for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

Now there is a passage that tells us something important.
How can God be the savior of ALL men if he does not actually eventually save them?

 

[mkgal1]

What I appreciate about that particular verse (1 Timothy 4:10) is that it even answers to the pre-objection so many people have about other verses that mention eventual salvation of all. Those that object will say--in regards to other verses--that's ONLY for those that believe. This passage, however, says "especially of those believing" (so it includes those that aren't believing).

I'm certain someone will somehow come up with an exclusion to "all" there, though.

 

[Shempster]

Sometimes I think that people just LOVE hell.
They love the thought that those filthy sinners in the wrong religions will be tortured in a pit where they can stop by the great chasm every once in a while and say "I told you so".
Also, someone once said to me "if there is no hell, why bother being a Christian?" That question really speaks a lot.
I think the church needs hell as well. If there is no fear of eternal torture, people might get the idea that they really don't NEED church or preachers to know God and become free from the world, the flesh and the devil.

From what I know, and I study much, the concept of an underworld of torture far preceeds biblical texts. It also appears that the early translators purposely chose words that describe this underworld in place of Greek words such as Aion and Basanos in order to promote this man made belief.

 

[ClementofA]

I can't find the term"Love Omnipotent" anywhere in scripture.

Can you find the term Trinity or Triune God?

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

 

[Der Alte]

If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).
God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.
It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.
If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.
It's a logical argument. Is all logic fallen?
Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?
If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me.
According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.
"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him...

Please show me one verse, more than one would be better, where "Love Ominpotent" clearly states that He will save, reconcile etc. all mankind and those who do not repent in this life will be saved, reconciled etc. after death if necessary.

 

[Der Alte]

Can you find the term Trinity or Triune God?..

Can you find anywhere I have used the term "Trinity" or "Triune God" better yet where I used either term in place of "God" as you are using "Love Ominpotent"

 

[mkgal1]

I can't find the term"Love Omnipotent" anywhere in scripture.

I'd say that's the problem with your Bible reading, then. Just because you don't see specific language used (even considering our Bibles are mostly taken from languages that aren't even spoken anymore today) doesn't mean the message or meaning isn't isn't there.

You don't see God's all powerful love in the cross? If not....it seems to me you have completely missed the plot.

That's the error I see in trying to use single-word translations as a way to try to gain understanding. The Bible is much more nuanced and holistic than that.

 

[Der Alte]

I'd say that's the problem with your Bible reading, then. Just because you don't see specific language used (even considering our Bibles are mostly taken from languages that aren't even spoken anymore today) doesn't mean the message or meaning isn't isn't there.

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. I did not say I don't see the concept of love omnipotent. I said I didn't see "the term 'Love Omnipotent'." CA uses the term "Love Omnipotent" as a noun in place of God.
Which languages are you referring that are no longer spoken? Both Hebrew and Greek have always been spoken.

You don't see God's all powerful love in the cross? If not....it seems to me you have completely missed the plot.

I'm not the one who missed something. speck-beam.

That's the error I see in trying to use single-word translations as a way to try to gain understanding. The Bible is much more nuanced and holistic than that

.

I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany, while supervising Greek workers. I formally studied both Biblical languages at the graduate level about 2 decades after that. I have, and know how to use, print and electronic versions of Brown Driver Briggs [BDB] and Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich [BDAG] two of, if not, the most highly accredited Hebrew and Greek lexicons available. I do not rely on translations or versions. I have used both Hebrew and Greek in teaching and preaching since that time.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus Christ was not content with laying in the tomb for three days after His crucifixion. Instead, while His body was entombed, Christ’s soul descended into Hades. Christ descended there not to suffer, but to fight, and free the souls trapped there. Just as bringing a light into darkness causes the darkness to disappear, the Source of all Life descending into the abode of the dead resulted in Jesus’ victory over death, and not death’s victory over Jesus. This is the full reality of what Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished.

This is internet not Biblical theology. There is no scripture which says Jesus or His soul descended into Hades, unless you mean simply the grave. "Hades" or "hell" is never called "prison" in scripture and "prison" is never called "hell" or "hades."

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

This passage does not say Jesus, during His time in the grave, preached in hell. Note that the passage says it was in the days of Noah when eight souls were saved.
.....Jesus tells us His earthly ministry in Luk 4:18-19 where He quotes from Isaiah 61:1-2

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" in this verse literally means "prisoners of war."

 

[ClementofA]

Can you find anywhere I have used the term "Trinity" or "Triune God" better yet where I used either term in place of "God" as you are using "Love Ominpotent"

Why would i want to? Don't you believe the Bible that God is Love & Omnipotent?
Do you not believe in the Trinity? Can you show me where the term Trinity occurs in the Scriptures?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

Why would i want to? Don't you believe the Bible that God is Love & Omnipotent?
Do you not believe in the Trinity? Can you show me where the term Trinity occurs in the Scriptures?...

What I believe is not the question. God is omnipresent but I don't use "omnipresent" in place of His name, YHWH, or title, God. The same with "omniscient." I gave you a choice please provide one verse, more would be better, where "Love Omnipotent", God Himself, says that He will save/reconcile all mankind, including those who die unrepentant that He will save/reconcile them after death.
.....The recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of 1000 prisoners released from prison more than 660 will return to prison. Many of them blame everyone but themselves for their situation, judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. Many even seek revenge on those they blame.
.....If God reconciles/saves those who died unrepentant after they have been punished for an indeterminate period in fire, will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they blame and hate God for their punishment?

 

[ClementofA]

.....The recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+%. Out of 1000 prisoners released from prison more than 660 will return to prison. Many of them blame everyone but themselves for their situation, judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. Many even seek revenge on those they blame.
.....

What does that have to do with the topic? God has all eternity to reconcile the lost.

If God reconciles/saves those who died unrepentant after they have been punished for an indeterminate period in fire, will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they blame and hate God for their punishment? .

Since they're saved, they'll be as happy with God as anyone else whom God has saved and allowed (or caused) to suffer, whether in this life or postmortem. Such as Job.

If endless punishment were true & victims of infanticide all go to heaven