Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for three days ?

[ClementofA]

Previous conversation said:

The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews.

I replied:

There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

Speaking of legends:

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Then Der Alter said:

All of your objections re: the books of Judith and Enoch are irrelevant. Both are quoted in the 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia and both are included in the 1917 Jewish Publications Society translation of the Tenach, i.e. OT. At the time of publication of the JE and JPS, both books were evidently considered to be canonical. Anything you say is meaningless. That is just your UR indoctrination talking.

First of all, the article you referenced is not from "the 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia" but from "The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia" here:
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com


Secondly, did you not read what i posted above from the "Jewish Encyclopedia"? Here it is again:

Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Does that sound like the "Jewish Encyclopedia" thinks "both books were evidently considered to be canonical", both Judith and the Book of Enoch?

"It must therefore be concluded either that the principal names of the story are a mere disguise, or that they were chosen with a purely literary purpose, and with the intent to disclaim at the outset any historical verity for the tale...with the very first words of the tale, "In the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned over the Assyrians in Nineveh," the narrator gives his hearers a solemn wink. They are to understand that this is fiction, not history. It did not take place in this or that definite period of Jewish history, but simply "once upon a time," the real vagueness of the date being transparently disguised in the manner which has become familiar in the folk-tales of other parts of the world."

JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

And regarding the Book of Enoch, the Jewish Encyclopedia says:

"ENOCH, BOOKS OF (Ethiopic and Slavonic):...Apocryphal works attributed to Enoch."
ENOCH, BOOKS OF (Ethiopic and Slavonic) - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Does that sound like the "Jewish Encyclopedia" thinks "both books were evidently considered to be canonical", both Judith and the Book of Enoch?

"...a cycle of Jewish ***LEGENDS*** about Enoch was derived, which, together with apocalyptic speculations naturally ascribed to such a man, credited with superhuman knowledge, found their literary expression in the Books of Enoch" (emphasis mine).
ENOCH, BOOKS OF (Ethiopic and Slavonic) - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Speaking of "legends":

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2 Tim. 4:4).

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

All of your objections re: the books of Judith and Enoch are irrelevant. Both are quoted in the 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia and both are included in the 1917 Jewish Publications Society translation of the Tenach, i.e. OT. At the time of publication of the JE and JPS, both books were evidently considered to be canonical. Anything you say is meaningless. That is just your UR indoctrination talking.

There's no Judith or Book of Enoch listed in the table of contexts of any of these previews of JPS publications of the Tanakh (Tanach):

1917 preview
https://www.amazon.ca/Tanakh-Tanach-Publication-Society-Translation-ebook/dp/B0052Z88RU

2003 preview
https://www.amazon.ca/Jewish-Study-...TF8&qid=1539929131&sr=1-6&keywords=JPS+TANAKH

2011 preview
https://www.amazon.ca/JPS-TANAKH-Sc...ocphy=9001551&hvtargid=pla-449130585579&psc=1

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<Clem>...
"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
...
First of all, the article you referenced is not from "the 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia" but from "The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia" here:
...
Secondly, did you not read what i posted above from the "Jewish Encyclopedia"? Here it is again:
...
There's no Judith or Book of Enoch listed in the table of contexts of any of these previews of JPS publications of the Tanakh (Tanach):<end>

end

My bad, Judith is in my copy of the LXX, FYI that means Septuagint, along with, 1-2 Esdras, Tobit, 1-4 Maccabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch. Both Judith and Enoch are quoted as authoritative in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Now since a group of 40+ Jewish scholars who compiled the JE decided that the Jewish belief in hell was based in part on those books, your opinion unfortunately means zilch. And once again Jesus never directly addressed the Jewish belief in hell which existed during His lifetime. Enoch and Judith predated Jesus.

 

[ClementofA]

Both Judith and Enoch are quoted as authoritative in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Now since a group of 40+ Jewish scholars who compiled the JE decided that the Jewish belief in hell was based in part on those books, your opinion unfortunately means zilch.

The article on Gehenna from JE you quoted is authored by 2 authors, not 40. It's also over a century out of date with the latest research & discoveries, including the DSS.

Judith & the Book of Enoch are not considered "authoritative" since they are apocrypha, being rejected from inclusion in the Jewish canon of the Scriptures.

My bad, Judith is in my copy of the LXX, FYI that means Septuagint, along with, 1-2 Esdras, Tobit, 1-4 Maccabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Wisdom, Sirach and Baruch. Both Judith and Enoch are quoted as authoritative in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Now since a group of 40+ Jewish scholars who compiled the JE decided that the Jewish belief in hell was based in part on those books, your opinion unfortunately means zilch. And once again Jesus never directly addressed the Jewish belief in hell which existed during His lifetime. Enoch and Judith predated Jesus.

The JE does not speak of Judith as "authoritative". As my previous post stated JE speaks of Judith as apocrypha & a "fictional...tale" & a "once upon a time...folk-tale":

"It must therefore be concluded either that the principal names of the story are a mere disguise, or that they were chosen with a purely literary purpose, and with the intent to disclaim at the outset any historical verity for the tale...with the very first words of the tale, "In the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned over the Assyrians in Nineveh," the narrator gives his hearers a solemn wink. They are to understand that this is fiction, not history. It did not take place in this or that definite period of Jewish history, but simply "once upon a time," the real vagueness of the date being transparently disguised in the manner which has become familiar in the folk-tales of other parts of the world."JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

And, as i quoted in my previous post, JE says the Book of Enoch is also apocrypha and refers to it as a "legend":

"...a cycle of Jewish ***LEGENDS*** about Enoch was derived, which, together with apocalyptic speculations naturally ascribed to such a man, credited with superhuman knowledge, found their literary expression in the Books of Enoch" (emphasis mine).
ENOCH, BOOKS OF (Ethiopic and Slavonic) - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Speaking of "legends":

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2 Tim. 4:4).

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

Now since a group of 40+ Jewish scholars who compiled the JE decided that the Jewish belief in hell was based in part on those books, your opinion unfortunately means zilch.

Again there is no such thing as "the Jewish belief in hell". Even your own posts have acknowledged that. There were multiple and conflicting beliefs among the Jews re hell in their ancient writings, not one unified view. The subject of hell was addressed by various writers at various times with a variety of viewpoints. These included those you quoted that hell shall pass away & that everyone who descends to Gehenna comes up again, except three groups. Scripture explicitly rejects a number of the ancient Jewish views re hell in the uninspired error filled nonscriptural Jewish writings, tales & legends. No one knows how many Jews believed these myths & fables to be anything more than fictional children's bedtime stories. They weren't considered on the level of authoritative Old Testament Jewish Scripture.

And once again Jesus never directly addressed the Jewish belief in hell which existed during His lifetime. Enoch and Judith predated Jesus.

There's no such thing as "the Jewish belief in hell". There were multiple beliefs which opposed one another. The Sadducees, for example, didn't believe in an afterlife or "hell" for anyone.

And once again Jesus never directly addressed the Jewish belief in hell which existed during His lifetime.

Your quotes from the JE & extrabiblical Jewish sources provided no evidence of a Jewish belief in hell as endless torments at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD). Of all your quotes from such writings only that from Judith expressed a belief in "pain unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17). One single quote is not much evidence, especially if Jesus rejected the language it uses. Jesus often quotes Scripture, but makes no mention of the apocryphal book of Judith.

Moreover the words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<Clem>. . . Your quotes from the JE & extrabiblical Jewish sources provided no evidence of a Jewish belief in hell as endless torments at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD). Of all your quotes from such writings only that from Judith expressed a belief in "pain unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17). One single quote is not much evidence, especially if Jesus rejected the language it uses. Jesus often quotes Scripture, but makes no mention of the apocryphal book of Judith.

[Irrelevant logical fallacy argument from silence. Guess we'll have to throw out most of the books of the OT, which He didn't quote. DA] ​

Moreover the words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism.<end>

end

Unsupported interpretation.

The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

You have provided zero evidence supporting your translation of ἕως αἰῶνος. Judith was originally written in Hebrew and the Jewish scholars knew the meaning of Hebrew words. End of discussion.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================

Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.. Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom​

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
​

 

[mkgal1]

That said, I find it hard to understand two things:

1.) Just looking at people in this world who absolutely love sin and hate God (along with anything to do with Christian morality) I have a hard time thinking that these people will be somehow changed in the next life. It certainly seems to me that they are going to hold onto their hatred of Christ forever rather than repent, either here or there.

The way I see it is that those that are hanging on to sin (I'm honestly not even a fan of that word, it's become too generic) the people that are trampling on others while calling themselves "Christian" or any other people doing this - in this life right now - are doing so because they favor the glory of material things and power. When we're away from all that, and only have God's presence of love - I don't see how anyone could resist (that's my understanding, anyway).

2. I know this is a question that is posed over and over and over again. It seems to me that the wicked, those who choose to enjoy their passions and wickedness in this life get the best of this deal. Some scourging, a period of pain, maybe even intense, and then **BOOM** they are cleansed, forgiven, and have the same relationship with Christ as those who have turned from sin in this life.

I know....dumb questions, but something that is troubling me nonetheless.

I don't think these are "dumb" questions at all! This second question is something that troubles me at times as well.

When looking around this world right now, it DOES appear that there's a lot of unfairness as gravely selfish people are getting just what they want at the expense of others (who were suffering even before these people came along and made things worse for them). I just have to trust that there's very little actual joy and peace they're gaining from this life (I think of King Solomon and his conclusion that it was all in vain and meaningless).

I know it's natural for us to want people to "pay" for what they've done (and we often want their suffering to even out with the suffering of the people they have hurt).....but I believe God isn't about punishment, but restoration (and that comes from His ability to affect hearts - not just an external influence like pain).

 

[ClementofA]

I posted:

Your quotes from the JE & extrabiblical Jewish sources provided no evidence of a Jewish belief in hell as endless torments at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD). Of all your quotes from such writings only that from Judith expressed a belief in "pain unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17). One single quote is not much evidence, especially if Jesus rejected the language it uses. Jesus often quotes Scripture, but makes no mention of the apocryphal book of Judith.

Der Alter replied:

Irrelevant logical fallacy argument from silence. Guess we'll have to throw out most of the books of the OT, which He didn't quote.

It's not an argument from silence, which you evidently don't know the meaning of, but stating facts. You made a bald unsupported claim (see above) & have failed to provide any support for it. Fact. Secondly, as to Jesus & the OT, Jesus did refer to the entire OT which never included the apocryphal legend of the Book of Enoch or the apocryphal fictional Judith. In fact Scripture clearly warns against such Jewish myths & fables:

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2 Tim. 4:4).
"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

"The work’s historicity is suspect because of numerous historical and chronological errors..." Book of Judith | biblical literature

"...the book abounds with anachronisms, inconsistencies and impossibilities"
Judith, Book Of - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

"Scholars generally maintain that the Book of Judith is a fictional story..." (The New Jewish Encyclopedia, edited by David Bridger, Samuel Wolk, 1976, p.255).


I posted:

Moreover the words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

You have provided zero evidence supporting your translation of ἕως αἰῶνος.

It's not my translation. Those are the words given by the ancient LXX scholars.

Judith was originally written in Hebrew and the Jewish scholars knew the meaning of Hebrew words.

Then you should accept their translation, namely ἕως αἰῶνος.

As to the language JE translated from into English, which is not stated by the 2 authors of the JE article on Gehenna, consider this:

"Several late Hebrew versions of the book have been found, no one of them with strong claims to be considered the original text,..."
Judith, Book Of - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

"The Book of Judith was almost certainly written in Hebrew. However the oldest versions of its actual text are Greek translations included in the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible."
Book of Judith - New World Encyclopedia

"The several Hebrew versions of Judith are all comparatively recent, and are quite worthless for the criticism of the book. Two of these are given in Jellinek, "B. H." i. 130-141, ii. 12-22; another is published by Gaster in "Proc. Soc. Bibl. Arch." xvi. 156-163. These are all free adaptations of the story, very much abridged." JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Jerome made his Latin version (with which the Vulgate (Jerome's Latin Bible, 390-405 A.D.) is identical) from a lost Chaldee version. That this last is not the original text of the book is certain, because neither Origen nor his Jewish teachers knew anything of a Hebrew or Aramaic text of Judith." Judith, Book Of - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

​

 

[ClementofA]

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

Nothing there (or in your entire post) speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context Sotah 22a reference? Before or after Christ? Was the author an anti-Christian Jew who rejected Christ as the Messiah? What else was he wrong about?

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context cherry picked Ber. 28b & B.M. 83b references? Before or after Christ? Was the author(s) an anti-Christian Jew who rejected Christ as the Messiah? What else was he wrong about?

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

That says "hell shall pass away". That doesn't support a doctrine that the wicked go to an "endless hell", for hell ends! What happens to those who thereafter "shall not pass away" is not stated.

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context cherry picked R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b references? Before or after Christ? Was the author(s) an anti-Christian Jew who rejected Christ as the Messiah? What else was he wrong about?

All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

Does Scripture agree that people who descend to "Gehenna shall come up again"? Does Scripture say all except those three classes shall do so? What happens to those three classes who don't "come up again"? Will they be saved to a lesser salvation than the rest, or be annihilated, or what?

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context cherry picked B. M. 58b reference? Before or after Christ? Was the author(s) an anti-Christian Jew who rejected Christ as the Messiah? What else was he wrong about?

… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context cherry picked Ber. 8b & Shab. 149a references? Before or after Christ? Was the author(s) an anti-Christian Jew who rejected Christ as the Messiah? What else was he wrong about?

The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al).

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context cherry picked references?

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,

according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell". BTW, what is the date of writing & author of the out of context cherry picked Sanh. 108b reference? Before or after Christ? Was the author(s) an anti-Christian Jew who rejected Christ as the Messiah? What else was he wrong about?

Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================

Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.. Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom​

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell".

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
​

Nothing there speaks of an endless hell. So it's entirely harmonious with universalism as taught in the inspired Christian Scriptures, since biblical universalism is agreeable with a belief in a temporary "hell".

Evidently the reference to "followers of Jesus" going to "Gehenna" is an anti Christian Jewish remark. What else was the "school of Hillel" wrong about?

At what date did the school of Hillel exist & state such things? Were they the Pharisees or their predecessors?

Jesus didn't mirror the beliefs of the Pharisees, since He rejected a number of their beliefs, for He warned against the teachings of the Pharisees:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:4). All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim.3:16).

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<Clem>. . . The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17. ...<end>

end

The Jewish Encyclopedia was published more than 100 years ago written by 40+ native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. Judith was originally written in Hebrew and the Jewish scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna, knew what they were doing without any assistance from you, interpreted it as "unto all eternity." How can you possibly think that anything you argue is not biased, uninformed and irrelevant.

 

[ClementofA]

I posted:

The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.

Der Alter replied:

The Jewish Encyclopedia was published more than 100 years ago written by 40+ native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars.

Only 2 (not 40) people authored the article with the translation ""unto all eternity". What are these 2 authors qualifications, if any, as translators? What are their theological biases? Did they translate from Greek texts? Or Hebrew? Or Latin? Or another language?

Judith was originally written in Hebrew and the Jewish scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna, knew what they were doing without any assistance from you, interpreted it as "unto all eternity."

What language it was originally written in is irrelevant. As to knowing what they were doing, scholars often disagree with scholars, so anyone thinking that the translation of one or two people is infallible is just making an unsupported assumption according to their theological biases. And is exposing their own severe lack in objectivity & common sense.

The JE article has Judith 16:17 saying " "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)."

The words "unto all eternity" correspond to the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος in the ancient LXX Bible used by the early church. But the words ἕως αἰῶνος (heos aionos) translate literally into English as "until age", not as "unto all eternity". The word "all" doesn't even occur in the Greek LXX text.

Compare:
Definition: till, until
Strong's Greek: 2193. ἕως (heós) -- till, until
Definition: a space of time, an age
Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

Compare also the same words, ἕως αἰῶνος (heos aionos) , as used in the NT & LXX:

"Jesus is with us until the end of the age (ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος)." In Mt.28:20 ἕως...αἰῶνος is usually rendered "to/unto/until...the age".

Matthew 28:20 Interlinear: teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

ἕως αἰῶνος is rendered "unto the eon" in 2 Samuel 22:51, LXX, of this version:
2 Samuel 22 And David spoke to the lord the words of this ode in the day which the lord rescued him from the hand of all his enemies, and from out of the hand of Saul.

Likewise with 1 Chronicles 15:2, Jeremiah 7:7 & Psalm 49:19, LXX:

2 Then said David, No one is to lift the ark of God except the Levites for [chose them the LORD] to lift the ark of the LORD, and to officiate to him unto the eon.
1 Chronicles 15 And he made for himself houses in the city of David. And he prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent.

7 then i will settle you in your place, in the land which i gave to your fathers, from the eon and unto the eon. Jeremiah 7 The word which came to Jeremiah from the lord, saying, Stand upon the gate of the house of the lord, and read there this word! And say,

19 He shall enter into the generation of his fathers; unto the eon he shall not see light.
Psalms 49 To the director; a psalm to the sons of Korah.

The words ἕως αἰῶνος also occur elsewhere in the LXX, & in 1 Clement as follows:

"**σοὶ δώσω αὐτὴν καὶ τῷ σπέρματί σου ἕως αἰῶνος** : to you I shall give it and to the see[d] of you until the ages." Translation First Clement | memoirandremains

 

[Der Alte]

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<Clem>I posted:
The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.
Only 2 (not 40) people authored the article with the translation ""unto all eternity". What are these 2 authors qualifications, if any, as translators? What are their theological biases? Did they translate from Greek texts? Or Hebrew? Or Latin? Or another language?<end>

end

The usual irrelevant, meaningless conglomeration of biased UR propaganda. You post this entire diatribe demanding the qualifications of the authors and other nonsense while you quote anything, by anybody regardless of any qualifications as long as it churns out UR propaganda. Anything you want to know about the Jewish Encyclopedia and the contributors is contained in the preface and the forward.

The Jewish Encyclopedia[n 1] is an English encyclopedia containing over 15,000 articles on the history, culture, and state of Judaism and the Jews up to the early 20th century.[1] It was originally published in 12 volumes by Funk and Wagnalls of New York City between 1901 and 1906 and reprinted in the 1960s by KTAV Publishing House. The work's scholarship is still highly regarded: the American Jewish Archives has called it "the most monumental Jewish scientific work of modern times"[2] and Rabbi Joshua L. Segal said that, "For events prior to 1900, it is considered to offer a level of scholarship superior to either of the more recent Jewish Encyclopedias written in English."[3] It is now in the public domain[n 2] and hosted at various sites around the internet.
The encyclopedia's managing editor was Isidore Singer. The editorial board was chaired by Isaac K. Funk and Frank H. Vizetelly. The other editors participating in all twelve volumes were Cyrus Adler, Gotthard Deutsch, Richard Gottheil, Joseph Jacobs, Kaufmann Kohler, Herman Rosenthal, and Crawford Howell Toy. Morris Jastrow, Jr. and Frederick de Sola Mendes assisted with volumes I & II; Marcus Jastrow with volumes I, II, & III; Louis Ginzberg with the first four volumes; Solomon Schechter with volumes IV through VII; Emil G. Hirsch with volumes IV through XII; and Wilhelm Bacher with volumes VIII through XII. William Popper served as the assistant revision editor and chief of translation for Vols. IV through XII.
Jewish Encyclopedia - Wikipedia
Jewish Encyclopedia-Preface
The present undertaking is the realization of an ideal to which Dr. Isidore Singer has devoted his energies for the last ten years. After several years spent in enlisting the interest of European scholars in the enterprise, he found that it was only in America that he could obtain both that material aid and practical scholarly cooperation necessary to carry out the scheme on the large scale which he had planned. Thanks to the enterprise and liberality of the Funk & Wagnalls Company, which generously seconded the energetic initiative of Dr. Singer, the cooperation of the undersigned staff of editors, together with that of the consulting boards, both American and foreign, was rendered possible. The preliminary work was done in the winter of 1898-99, by Dr. Singer, Professor Gottheil, and Dr. Kohler. These were soon joined by Dr. Cyrus Adler, of Washington, D. C. ; Dr. G. Deutsch, of Cincinnati; Dr. Marcus Jastrow and Prof. Morris Jastrow, Jr., of Philadelphia; and Prof. George F. Moore, of Andover. Organization of the work was effected by these gentlemen at meetings held in New York, March 1 and 6, and July 12, 1899, Dr. I. K. Funk, of the Funk & Wagnalls Company, presiding, and the plan of operation submitted by the firm was adopted by them. To these was added later Mr. Joseph Jacobs, of London, as well as Dr. Louis Ginzberg and Dr. F. de Sola Mendes, both of New York city. Professor Moore, having assumed additional duties as president of the Andover Theological Seminary, found himself obliged to withdraw, and Prof. C. H. Toy was elected in his place in January, 1900. . . .
The editors have felt a special sense of responsibility with regard to this work, in which for the first time the claims to recognition of a whole race and its ancient religion are put forth in a form approaching completeness. They have had to consider susceptibilities among Jews and others, and have been especially solicitous that nothing should be set down which could hurt the feelings of the most sensitive. They consider it especially appropriate that a work of this kind should appear in America, where each man's creed is judged by his deeds, without reference to any preconceived opinion. It seemed to them peculiarly appropriate under these circumstances that The Jewish Encyclopedia should appear under the auspices of a publishing house none of whose members is connected with the history or tenets of the people it is designed to portray. Placing before the reading public of the world the history of the Jew in its fullest scope, with an exhaustiveness which has never been attempted before—without concealing facts or resorting to apology—The Jewish Encyclopedia hopes to contribute no unimportant share to a just estimate of the Jew.
Preface - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

 

[ClementofA]

<Clem>I posted:
The words for "unto all eternity" (Judith 16:17) are the Greek words ἕως αἰῶνος which literally mean "until age". So rather than supporting a single Jewish writers' opinion in support of endless torments, a literal translation of Judith opposes such a theology or is silent on the matter. Literally the "pain" suffered is for a limited time "until" a certain "age" arrives. That is in harmony with universalism. The Greek word aion can also mean "life" in ancient Greek usage & in the LXX. In that case ἕως αἰῶνος would be rendered "until life" do they suffer pain, which is favorable to a universalist interpretation of Judith 16:17.
Only 2 (not 40) people authored the article with the translation ""unto all eternity". What are these 2 authors qualifications, if any, as translators? What are their theological biases? Did they translate from Greek texts? Or Hebrew? Or Latin? Or another language?<end>
The usual irrelevant, meaningless conglomeration of biased UR propaganda. You post this entire diatribe demanding the qualifications of the authors and other nonsense while you quote anything, by anybody regardless of any qualifications as long as it churns out UR propaganda. Anything you want to know about the Jewish Encyclopedia and the contributors is contained in the preface and the forward.

The Jewish Encyclopedia[n 1] is an English encyclopedia containing over 15,000 articles on the history, culture, and state of Judaism and the Jews up to the early 20th century.[1] It was originally published in 12 volumes by Funk and Wagnalls of New York City between 1901 and 1906 and reprinted in the 1960s by KTAV Publishing House. The work's scholarship is still highly regarded: the American Jewish Archives has called it "the most monumental Jewish scientific work of modern times"[2] and Rabbi Joshua L. Segal said that, "For events prior to 1900, it is considered to offer a level of scholarship superior to either of the more recent Jewish Encyclopedias written in English."[3] It is now in the public domain[n 2] and hosted at various sites around the internet.
The encyclopedia's managing editor was Isidore Singer. The editorial board was chaired by Isaac K. Funk and Frank H. Vizetelly. The other editors participating in all twelve volumes were Cyrus Adler, Gotthard Deutsch, Richard Gottheil, Joseph Jacobs, Kaufmann Kohler, Herman Rosenthal, and Crawford Howell Toy. Morris Jastrow, Jr. and Frederick de Sola Mendes assisted with volumes I & II; Marcus Jastrow with volumes I, II, & III; Louis Ginzberg with the first four volumes; Solomon Schechter with volumes IV through VII; Emil G. Hirsch with volumes IV through XII; and Wilhelm Bacher with volumes VIII through XII. William Popper served as the assistant revision editor and chief of translation for Vols. IV through XII.
Jewish Encyclopedia - Wikipedia
Jewish Encyclopedia-Preface
The present undertaking is the realization of an ideal to which Dr. Isidore Singer has devoted his energies for the last ten years. After several years spent in enlisting the interest of European scholars in the enterprise, he found that it was only in America that he could obtain both that material aid and practical scholarly cooperation necessary to carry out the scheme on the large scale which he had planned. Thanks to the enterprise and liberality of the Funk & Wagnalls Company, which generously seconded the energetic initiative of Dr. Singer, the cooperation of the undersigned staff of editors, together with that of the consulting boards, both American and foreign, was rendered possible. The preliminary work was done in the winter of 1898-99, by Dr. Singer, Professor Gottheil, and Dr. Kohler. These were soon joined by Dr. Cyrus Adler, of Washington, D. C. ; Dr. G. Deutsch, of Cincinnati; Dr. Marcus Jastrow and Prof. Morris Jastrow, Jr., of Philadelphia; and Prof. George F. Moore, of Andover. Organization of the work was effected by these gentlemen at meetings held in New York, March 1 and 6, and July 12, 1899, Dr. I. K. Funk, of the Funk & Wagnalls Company, presiding, and the plan of operation submitted by the firm was adopted by them. To these was added later Mr. Joseph Jacobs, of London, as well as Dr. Louis Ginzberg and Dr. F. de Sola Mendes, both of New York city. Professor Moore, having assumed additional duties as president of the Andover Theological Seminary, found himself obliged to withdraw, and Prof. C. H. Toy was elected in his place in January, 1900. . . .
The editors have felt a special sense of responsibility with regard to this work, in which for the first time the claims to recognition of a whole race and its ancient religion are put forth in a form approaching completeness. They have had to consider susceptibilities among Jews and others, and have been especially solicitous that nothing should be set down which could hurt the feelings of the most sensitive. They consider it especially appropriate that a work of this kind should appear in America, where each man's creed is judged by his deeds, without reference to any preconceived opinion. It seemed to them peculiarly appropriate under these circumstances that The Jewish Encyclopedia should appear under the auspices of a publishing house none of whose members is connected with the history or tenets of the people it is designed to portray. Placing before the reading public of the world the history of the Jew in its fullest scope, with an exhaustiveness which has never been attempted before—without concealing facts or resorting to apology—The Jewish Encyclopedia hopes to contribute no unimportant share to a just estimate of the Jew.
Preface - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Did that cut and paste from another site answer any questions in my post?

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism