Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[ThreeAM]

So we must see Dr. Bacchiocchi as ringleader of the sabbatarians? Having a PhD doesn't make him infallible nor his conclusions final, as you would be quick to point out about the Sunday-beliefs of scholars with PhDs who believe the evidence shows the contrary. Do you accept the qualifications of those who passed Dr. Bacchiocchi with Cum Laude at the Georgian Pontifical University in Rome? They weren't sabbath keepers, were they?

.

Bachiocchi did study the oldest books available in the Vatican on the history of the early church. His work represents 5 years of study on the subject.

Intresting that you mentioned this. Dr.Bachiocchi's Desertation advisor ... Chair of the Department of Early Church told him that prior to Bachiocchi's work he had thought the change from Sabbath to Sunday had occured in apostolic times however after working with Bacchiocchi on the desertation his advisor changed his mind thinking the change occured gradually starting in the early 2nd century.

Dr. Bachiocchi's advisor was VC and also felt the Church was within its athority to make the change. So the belief that the 2nd century church change the day of observance to sunday and the personal contiued observance of Sunday is not inconsitant for him.

I have read both side of this argument...perhaps you should consider doing the same....Dr. Bachiocchi book is free as a download.

Bachiocchi book is a reprint of His doctoral desertation it not real easy to read but does contain interesting information.

 

[Nightfire]

I assume that you are referring to the first day of the week even though there is no indisputable scripture that says that the resurrection occurred on that day. Also, I know of no scripture that says that the church emphasized the first day of the week because of the resurrection.

It was traditionally attributed to that day. The two earliest mentions of Sunday keeping connect it with the resurrection (Barnabas in 135 AD and Justin Martyr at about 150 AD), and it certainly did not originate with them (i.e. they were reporting a tradition that was already generally accepted in their time). Dr. Bacchiocchi states that the resurrection was celebrated "existentially" rather than on a specific day, which still describes how Christians see the Sabbath today. It was embodied by Jesus' death, and fulfilled at his resurrection.

re: "When we work, we do so to the Lord, and when we rest, we do so to the Lord (cf. Rom. 14). "

The subject of Romans 14 from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. As you know, some n the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with working or not working.

This interpretation might suit your argument better, but it's a bit contrived if you ask me.

Paul starts in verse 1 with a general introduction: "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters", then continues with the specific "disputable matters" at hand, which obviously have to do with Jewish-Gentile relations - not just with dietary laws. To restrict his solution just to food would miss what Paul is trying to achieve: unity and tolerance between the gentile and Jewish believers. For this purpose, Paul introduces the principle of faith (14:5-8), and substantiates it with Jesus death and resurrection. Surely you don't think that his comment about "whether we live or die" is about differences over food?

Paul wasn't talking to pagan Romans, so you would have to explain why Paul talks about sacred days in a speech to Christians. Maybe some Jewish Christians thought that it was wrong for the Gentile Christians to practice their dietary freedom (which would seem pagan, but was taught by Jesus himself) on the sabbath? Maybe they wanted to separate themselves from the Gentile Christians who didn't keep the sabbath like they did, or considered "every day alike", just as Peter - a Jew who otherwise "lived like a Gentile and not like a Jew" (don't you wonder what this means?) - separated himself from the Gentiles on account of the circumcision group (Gal. 2:14).

Do you remember how God showed Peter through a simple dietary explanation that gentiles were acceptible to Him (Acts 10)? Would this have been possible if Peter insisted that his vision applied only to food?

 

[Nightfire]

Bachiocchi did study the oldest books available in the Vatican on the history of the early church. His work represents 5 years of study on the subject.

And he managed to discover the "truth" from within the Vatican? Sounds like a Dan Brown novel. He wasn't the only scholar to have studied the subject, and many have studied it for longer than 5 years. Is there a specific reason you trust the research of one man so much?

Intresting that you mentioned this. Dr.Bachiocchi's Desertation advisor ... Chair of the Department of Early Church told him that prior to Bachiocchi's work he had thought the change from Sabbath to Sunday had occured in apostolic times however after working with Bacchiocchi on the desertation his advisor changed his mind thinking the change occured gradually starting in the early 2nd century.

Dr. Bachiocchi's advisor was VC and also felt the Church was within its athority to make the change. So the belief that the 2nd century church change the day of observance to sunday and the personal contiued observance of Sunday is not inconsitant for him.

This website (which seems sabbatarian but very critical of Dr Bacchiocchi) says his advisor was a Jesuit, Father Vincenzo Monachino. Remember that the Catholic church (in the form we know it today) did not exist in 135 AD, so what he calls "church authority"is what all Christians considered "church authority" then. We are definitely indebted to Dr Bachiocchi for not allowing Constantine or the popes to be used as conspirational scapegoats anymore. Before then, Rome alone simply did not have the authority to impose anything. Each church had their own patriarch, as they had when John wrote Revelations to them. But unless you believe there should never have been any authority in the first church to "bind and loose" various requirements, who do you suppose should have been the ones making decisions? Are the same people who gave you the Bible you are using, the ones whose judgement you don't trust? Think about that for a second.

I have read both side of this argument...perhaps you should consider doing the same....Dr. Bachiocchi book is free as a download.

I've read the summary, but I'll read the book as soon as I get a chance. I'm also reading as many pro and con websites as I can find.

 

[tall73]

So we must see Dr. Bacchiocchi as ringleader of the sabbatarians? Having a PhD doesn't make him infallible nor his conclusions final, as you would be quick to point out about the Sunday-beliefs of scholars with PhDs who believe the evidence shows the contrary. Do you accept the qualifications of those who passed Dr. Bacchiocchi with Cum Laude at the Georgian Pontifical University in Rome? They weren't sabbath keepers, were they?

No, he is not the ring leader, in fact he does not in all respects agree with traditional Adventist interpretation (he sees more continuing value in the feasts, etc.) . J.N. Andrews, Strand, etc. studied most of the same sources before he did. Bacchiocchi's popularity lies in his ability to market. He has popularized his works, despite their more scholarly nature, through the web and a tireless email campaign.

I have not finished Bacchiocchi's book yet, having just started recently. But for my part I started just reading through the Church Fathers, and reading other commentators who referenced them. The texts are all online now, with the exception of a few.

The practical value of Bacchiocchi to the discussion, from what I have found so far, is that he gives a thorough reference to those who are interested in learning more. I actually like Andrews' work better, being shorter, and more direct. But his tone is rather harsh, so he has a bit less credibility.

In any case, the only real sources that matter in any debate are PRIMARY sources. Opinions are just that.

 

[tall73]

And he managed to discover the "truth" from within the Vatican? Sounds like a Dan Brown novel. He wasn't the only scholar to have studied the subject, and many have studied it for longer than 5 years. Is there a specific reason you trust the research of one man so much?


This website (which seems sabbatarian but very critical of Dr Bacchiocchi) says his advisor was a Jesuit, Father Vincenzo Monachino. Remember that the Catholic church (in the form we know it today) did not exist in 135 AD, so what he calls "church authority"is what all Christians considered "church authority" then. We are definitely indebted to Dr Bachiocchi for not allowing Constantine or the popes to be used as conspirational scapegoats anymore. Before then, Rome alone simply did not have the authority to impose anything. Each church had their own patriarch, as they had when John wrote Revelations to them. But unless you believe there should never have been any authority in the first church to "bind and loose" various requirements, who do you suppose should have been the ones making decisions? Are the same people who gave you the Bible you are using, the ones whose judgement you don't trust? Think about that for a second.


I've read the summary, but I'll read the book as soon as I get a chance. I'm also reading as many pro and con websites as I can find.

I will get to the rest of your comments in a bit. By the way, I appreciate you being willing to go into detailed discussion. Few will. Whether you agree or not, at least you don't shy away from the topic.

As to the councils, they were a meeting of the representatives of Christianity at the time. We would expect to agree with much of what they decided, and do. But we don't view them as infallible, and we do see in the decisions some things that are products of their time. Since we do not hold that councils held hundreds of years after the foundational apostles were authoritative we are free to look objectively at what they decided.

As for Rome not having the authority before then, that would be a bit misleading. As already mentioned the passover situation shows that the pope already had a leading role even in his day. The councils themselves give verbal indications of a prominent place of the papacy, right from the outset. Even Orthodox adherents grant him first among equals status.

People may debate the actual role ,but he was not powerless.

But undoubtedly the issue, according to the sources we have today, was not just the pope's. Though Scholasticus, etc. do seem to point to Rome and Alexandria as the first to abandon the practice.

 

[jochanaan]

I keep hearing that we must follow the Law WRT keeping the Sabbath, yet no one has enumerated what we must do to accomplish this. Would the Sabbatarians please let us know what must be done in order to please God.

Note: I am not looking for a nebulous 'Follow the example of Jesus ...' but rather concrete examples of what is required of us.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shall thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates". (Exodus 20:8-10) My denomination, the Seventh Day Baptists, are flexible about how they keep it; some of us see nothing wrong with going out to eat on Saturdays and thus enjoying the results of others' labor, while others are troubled by this; some set aside Friday evenings, since the Israelites counted days as beginning at evening, while others do not. But we generally agree that we should not work for pay on Saturdays; or if we must, we pray for a change in our employment unless we are medical or law-enforcement professionals.

As for "going to church," we don't consider it strictly necessary; yet, because of the "six-days shalt thou labor" clause, we prefer to reserve the seventh day for our primary meetings. (We can do worship and service at any time. )

 

[jochanaan]

So we must see Dr. Bacchiocchi as ringleader of the sabbatarians?...

*LOL* We're way too independent-minded to accept any one ringleader. You should hear some of our business meetings!

 

[jochanaan]

SDAs put forth the idea, that fallible mortals should not even think or try to make God's Holy Law fit their preferences, or to make it conform to church traditions, but instead do just as Jesus said to do, when He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone with His own finger, thousands of years ago.

Excellent point, BrightCandle. That's what many independent Baptists recognized two centuries before the Millerites became the Seventh-day Adventists. And my personal studies have led me to believe that there have been Sabbath-keeping Christians at all times in Christian history.

But let me say again, we do NOT keep the Sabbath because of a misplaced sense of obligation or to try to work our way to Heaven; we do it in loving obedience to the One Who has already set us on the road to Heaven. It is a result of our faith; not a prerequisite.

 

[tall73]

I keep hearing that we must follow the Law WRT keeping the Sabbath, yet no one has enumerated what we must do to accomplish this. Would the Sabbatarians please let us know what must be done in order to please God.

Note: I am not looking for a nebulous 'Follow the example of Jesus ...' but rather concrete examples of what is required of us.

Jesus' example is about the best you can find. And it does give a lot of information. But Isaiah 58 also is instructive.

Isa 58:13 "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;
Isa 58:14 then you shall take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Some notes:

The Sabbath should be a day for not doing just what you would normally do, or talking about mundane things. It is a day to focus on the Lord and take joy in Him.

What I tell people when they ask me for a hard and fast rule is this:

If something brings you closer to God it is likely good on the Sabbath. If something does not, you want to question it. The day is about Him.

The only other practical guidance is that given in the command, that given by Jesus etc. That we should rest ,that we can do good on the Sabbath, that we should not do unneccessary labor (gathering sticks was the biblical example) that could be done previously.

But even then it is not necessary to be overly-legalistic. Jesus healed the mother of Simon and she began to wait on them, even on the Sabbath. So some necessary things, such as food, etc. need to be done on the Sabbath.

 

[Oblio]

My denomination, the Seventh Day Baptists, are flexible about how they keep it; some of us see nothing wrong with going out to eat on Saturdays and thus enjoying the results of others' labor, while others are troubled by this; some set aside Friday evenings, since the Israelites counted days as beginning at evening, while others do not. But we generally agree that we should not work for pay on Saturdays; or if we must, we pray for a change in our employment unless we are medical or law-enforcement professionals.

So as long as I am off work on Saturday I'm in ??


Thank God I am not like other sinners !!

 

[tall73]

So as long as I am off work on Saturday I'm in ??


Thank God I am not like other sinners !!

If that was what you got out of the post, then I would say you need to stop skimming.

 

[Oblio]

If that was what you got out of the post, then I would say you need to stop skimming.

I added a quote for context, you may have not seen it.

And yes, that is what I get from most posts by sabbatarians.

 

[Oblio]

Here is what my Saturdays consist of:

Work around house, surf the internet, attend services at our temple, shopping, (lately) shovel manure, do maintenance/work at our parish, go shopping, prepare for Sunday worship services, prepare to receive the Holy Eucharist, play with my children, watch TV, read Scripture and writings from the Saints ...

Am I transgressing the will of God as a post-Resurrectional Orthodox Christian by these activities ?

 

[tall73]

I added a quote for context, you may have not seen it.

And yes, that is what I get from most posts by sabbatarians.

ah ok, yes, I didn't see it.

As to your particular observance, there is really no need for me to tell you what you should do for several reasons:

a. as an Orthodox Christian you accept some things as authoritative that we do not. So it is fruitless to take our advice.

b. My earlier take is enough that you could apply the texts listed for yourself and come to your own conclusion. I don't tell my members every single specific, even when they ask me, and I won't for you either. The issue is not the specifics, it is the heart. Do you really want to put God first that day? If so,then He can work out the specifics with you.

 

[jochanaan]

So as long as I am off work on Saturday I'm in ??


Thank God I am not like other sinners !!

Well, there is the slight matter of acknowledging Jesus of Nazareth as your Savior and Lord.

 

[Oblio]

Well, there is the slight matter of acknowledging Jesus of Nazareth as your Savior and Lord.

Whooooosh !

 

[cygnusx1]

Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?.

I don't worry about the ten commandments at all!

Why worry about something that no longer has power over you ???

 

[ThreeAM]

I've read the summary, but I'll read the book as soon as I get a chance. I'm also reading as many pro and con websites as I can find.

Fair enough

 

[BrightCandle]

I don't worry about the ten commandments at all!

Why worry about something that no longer has power over you ???

Sin is defined in the Bible as lawlessness. See I John 3:4. And John also states that those who continue to sin or be lawless do not know God. If you do not know God, who do you think has power over you?

 

[BrightCandle]

Consistent in relation to grace or law? Most Christians worship on Sundays because Christ arose from the dead on the first day, the Bible-loving man will see the spiritual appropriateness of the first day as the Christian’s voluntary sabbath day. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (1:1). "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (1:14). It was on the first day of the week that Christ arose and so the first day, Sunday, came to be designated as the Lord's Day. On that day the early Christians gathered to worship (Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10) as do we, and in doing so we celebrate Christ's resurrection. True worship is not something that we "do" in the hope of appearing to be religious. True worship must be a constant and consistent attitude or state of mind within the believer, a sustained and blessed acknowledgement of love and admiration. We must carry our cross daily. We must love God and others. We must fulfill our commission as ambassadors of Christ among people with Grace rather than Law. It is our personal relationship to God that really matters! That takes priority over everything else.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith (Hebrews 10:12–14, 19–22).

SDAs are strong believers in grace, that is why we are also strong believers in obeying Jesus and His Holy Law. SDAs see infinite grace poured out on all mankind when Jesus died on the cross, but we also realize that our sins put Him there on the cross, and that sin is the transgression of God's Law, and that that Holy Law could not be changed even after mankind sinned. Hence the importance of showing our love for God by not continuing to sin, which is lawlessness (I John 3: 4). The reason that this topic is relevant is because the commandment (the Sabbath) that Jesus said to "Remember" has been forgotten, and a new "sabbath" (Sunday) has subordinated what the Godhead created for mankind.