Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

[ThreeAM]

Faith do not lead because leading means working for salvation. Faith produces works which means faith is from within that produces works. My faith is not in my works.

Semantics

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Faith do not lead because leading means working for salvation. Faith produces works which means faith is from within that produces works. My faith is not in my works.

Isn't it Christ that leads us into good works while avoiding the "dead works". Thoughts?

Ephesians 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Hebrews 6:1 Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,

 

[JimfromOhio]

Semantics

Ummm I am not that smart... I had to look this up.

Semantic:
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
1 : the study of meanings: a : the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development b (1) : SEMIOTIC (2) : a branch of semiotic dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth
2 : GENERAL SEMANTICS
3 a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning b : the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings.

Interesting...

 

[JimfromOhio]

Isn't it Christ that leads us into good works while avoiding the "dead works". Thoughts?

Ephesians 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

Hebrews 6:1 Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,

We have to look at the word: FAITH and this verse have been very helpful 1 Thessalonians 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no "lead" in that verse. There are three words and they are:
Produce
Prompted
Inspired

 

[ThreeAM]

Ummm I am not that smart... I had to look this up.



Interesting...

It ok I mispelled it and had to look up the spelling.

 

[ThreeAM]

We have to look at the word: FAITH and this verse have been very helpful 1 Thessalonians 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no "lead" in that verse. There are three words and they are:
Produce
Prompted
Inspired

What Translation is that? The Greek doesn't say that.

Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

Christ is righteous because He obeyed his Father's commandments.

Faith in Christ eventually leads to obedience.

 

[JimfromOhio]

What Translation is that? The Greek doesn't say that.

Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

Christ is righteous because He obeyed his Father's commandments.

Faith in Christ eventually leads to obedience.

Why "eventually" leads to? Requires work of a person or refusing to acknowledge the Holy Spirit to produce works?

 

[ThreeAM]

Why "eventually" leads to? Requires work of a person or refusing to acknowledge the Holy Spirit to produce works?

Our good works should improve as we mature as Christians the process of sanctification is one God of changing us over a life time.

Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Our good works should improve as we mature as Christians the process of sanctification is one God of changing us over a life time.

Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

You can have GREAT knowledge but if you don't have spiritual wisdom, your knowledge is worthless.

Jesus said in John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

Fruit requires produce from Christ. Faith produce fruit that produces works.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.

Through our union with God, we are Sanctified through living in the Holy Spirit. Our thoughts are the product of our thinking and it is not our thinking that shapes our character, but the Holy Spirit that leads our thoughts and shapes our character. A person who have the Holy Spirit in the heart will understand God's standards of "sin" because a Christian will understand God's holiness. A person without having the Holy Spirit in the heart will not understand God's holiness therefore a person will define God's definition of sin in a human point of view (rather than spirit).

Regarding Sancification: James wrote about applying to sanctification with humble attitude: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble" (Jas 4:6, quoting Pr 3:34). God is looking for holiness. The heart is where God meets us because that is where we make our decisions. Our hearts are where our desires and motives are located. Peter wrote in 1st Peter that we are elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience. With the Holy Spirit in us, is very holy and sinless living in our sinful body; as a Christian, I have a strong desire to obey God but I do not always do THAT good. This is the process of sanctification and during the sanctification, Christians will struggle: Our sinful bodies versus Holy Spirit living in our hearts. The body carried sin but spiritually, a Christian's heart is holy. There will be a battle as long as we live in our bodies. Sin causes our bodies to decay and we will die one day.

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The heart where Jesus talks about the most. It is the heart where He meets us. The heart is the core of our being. From the heart, we love God and we love people around us. From the heart, we worship God spiritually. From the heart, we glorify God and desire to obey God. From the heart, our fruits are rooted and our fruits will grow strong. Grace is from the heart while the Law is from works.

Galatians 5:22-23 "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

 

[ThreeAM]

Regarding Sancification: James wrote about applying to sanctification with humble attitude: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble" (Jas 4:6, quoting Pr 3:34). God is looking for holiness. The heart is where God meets us because that is where we make our decisions. Our hearts are where our desires and motives are located.

Another great reason for not acusing a whole denomination of legalism when you realy don't understand their reasons for wanting to be odeient.

From the fundemental beliefs of the SDA.

10. The Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

 

[JimfromOhio]

Another great reason for not acusing a whole denomination of legalism when you realy don't understand reasons for wanting to be odeient.

Yep especially to those who are not into legalism like me who follows "Sabbath" on the 7th day rather than Saturday.

Here's a good quote from one Christian:
Pride magnifies the faults of other Christians and diminishes their graces, while it diminishes the faults and magnifies the graces of its subject. Spiritual Pride drastically hinders revival because it padlocks the spirit, shutting the soul off in its own darkness and blocking it from dealing not only with pride itself but with every other area of the flesh. Because spiritual pride is so secretive, it is hard to detect except through its effects. Under the guise of prophetic righteousness, pride can move awakened believers to censorious attacks on other Christians. Richard Lovelace

 

[JimfromOhio]

A local church is one body of an universal Church with many members, ordered in such a way that, through the one Spirit, believers may be built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God. I believe there is "NO" wrong way to Glorify God since worship is spiritual from the heart. That's between God and the believer who worship.

There are different preferences of beliefs and different style of worship. Some prefer one worship style while other prefer another worship style. The key is that we must worship God in Spirit with other believers regardless our "personal" opinion or loyalty to our denominations (or non-denomination). God knows every believers' hearts and God will accept any believers who truly believe His Son. In my opinion, God do not judge us based on what denomination church we go to, but rather God judge us based on how we worship Him from our hearts.

John 4:23-24 (New International Version) Jesus said:
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

 

[BrightCandle]

A local church is one body of an universal Church with many members, ordered in such a way that, through the one Spirit, believers may be built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God. I believe there is "NO" wrong way to Glorify God since worship is spiritual from the heart. That's between God and the believer who worship.

There are different preferences of beliefs and different style of worship. Some prefer one worship style while other prefer another worship style. The key is that we must worship God in Spirit with other believers regardless our "personal" opinion or loyalty to our denominations (or non-denomination). God knows every believers' hearts and God will accept any believers who truly believe His Son. In my opinion, God do not judge us based on what denomination church we go to, but rather God judge us based on how we worship Him from our hearts.

John 4:23-24 (New International Version) Jesus said:
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Jim,

To put this into perspective, lets look at the big picture and the point of this topic, namely, that the majority of Christian churches profess to honor and keep the Ten Commandments, except the 4th Commandment, the Sabbath commandment, which they choose to single out alter to fit their own preferences with no command from God to do so. SDAs put forth the idea, that fallible mortals should not even think or try to make God's Holy Law fit their preferences, or to make it conform to church traditions, but instead do just as Jesus said to do, when He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone with His own finger, thousands of years ago. If it is a sin to break any of the other nine commandments in our day and age, why would it not be a sin to break number four of the ten? As you well know, almost all of the heavy hitters of the evangelical churches in the USA are promoting on 05.07.06 a Ten Commandments day celebration, and saying that they were made for "all mankind", and yet 99.9% of these same Chrisitan leaders are not keeping the 4th Commandment? Doesn't that seem inconsistent and disengenous to you?

 

[Nightfire]

Jim,

To put this into perspective, lets look at the big picture and the point of this topic, namely, that the majority of Christian churches profess to honor and keep the Ten Commandments, except the 4th Commandment, the Sabbath commandment, which they choose to single out alter to fit their own preferences with no command from God to do so. SDAs put forth the idea, that fallible mortals should not even think or try to make God's Holy Law fit their preferences, or to make it conform to church traditions, but instead do just as Jesus said to do, when He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone with His own finger, thousands of years ago. If it is a sin to break any of the other nine commandments in our day and age, why would it not be a sin to break number four of the ten? As you well know, almost all of the heavy hitters of the evangelical churches in the USA are promoting on 05.07.06 a Ten Commandments day celebration, and saying that they were made for "all mankind", and yet 99.9% of these same Chrisitan leaders are not keeping the 4th Commandment? Doesn't that seem inconsistent and disengenous to you?

The problem is that this "big picture"is relies on tunnel-vision about the ten commandments. The view depends heavily on commandments written on stone, as if Christians are (and should) still be keeping/interpreting them as the Jews did - as if we are still old covenant Jews. As if they did not fade like Paul said (2 Cor. 3:7), and most importantly: as if the new covenant of Christ is not of equal authority and greater glory.

The truth is that not even sabbatarians (except perhaps the most legalistic ones) keep the "ten commandments" the ancient way, and it's disingenious to suggest that other Christians are somehow being more inconsistent about it. If the changes we observe after the resurrection of Christ and destruction of the temple came under supervision of the Spirit, isn't someone who calls them "the traditions of men" on just as dangerous ground as those who accept those changes by faith (and without contradiction by conscience or scripture)?

You are also working with the assumption that "keeping" a commandment has some universal meaning that everybody can understand without qualification. If that were true, then Jesus did indeed not "keep" the commandments, as the Jews accused him of doing. But we know He did, and so we must rely on Him to know (and teach us) what keeping God's commandments really means - not Jewish tradition, no matter how long it was practiced before or after Christ. Christians (under Paul and the apostle's leadership - and not least of all: under supervision of the Spirit that Jesus promised the church) began underplaying the sabbath as a ceremonial day, and emphasizing resurrection day from the moment they realized the significance of what happened.

God's work has "been finished since the creation of the world" (Heb. 4:4). He created the sabbath rest along with everything else - essentially finishing our salvation right there and then. Rev. 13:8 states "the Lamb ... was slain from the creation of the world." That is the true nature of the sabbath. When God lead Israel out of Egypt, He told them with the 4th commandment: "watch this space - watch it closely and religiously". And then our salvation - our sabbath rest - was revealed, and those who really understood the commandment recognized Him, even though He "worked" on the sabbath! So, many Christians came to believe, like most still do, that "we who have believed enter that rest" (Heb. 4:3) and "anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his" (4:10). Even more wonderful news than that was that this perfect sabbath rest isn't just available when we are dead, but already while we're alive (Gal. 2:20)! At first, the law that brought death contained our sabbath - rendering it inaccessible - now that Jesus wrote it on our hearts, we are able to keep the sabbath just like we are able to keep the rest of the law, not through ceremonies, sacrifices, religious days and festivals, but through the Spirit who lives in us. With Jesus' death, we entered our death, and the life we live now we live to Him. The goal of His command is love, "which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith."

While we hope that we do not wound the consciences of our brothers who continue keeping the sabbath in the old way - because we know they also accept the new way of Christ - we also pray that they will not condemn us in the name of laws written on stone, after Christ had removed their power himself, becoming our sabbath rest:

Rom. 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.​

We will not let one day of the week enslave us when the very next day brought our freedom. We cannot sin against God by not "keeping" saturday, if our "work" on that day (by the measurements of those who profess to "keep" it) is done in submission to God's commandments. This is what Jesus tought us (Matt. 12:1-8). Those who served in the temple were innocent of breaking the sabbath, and Jesus is greater than the temple. As long as we are in Him, practicing our faith in Him, we are doing the work of God (1 Tim. 4:1), and therefore keeping the sabbath. When we work, we do so to the Lord, and when we rest, we do so to the Lord (cf. Rom. 14). What exactly is your charge against us?

 

[Cliff2]

Jim,

To put this into perspective, lets look at the big picture and the point of this topic, namely, that the majority of Christian churches profess to honor and keep the Ten Commandments, except the 4th Commandment, the Sabbath commandment, which they choose to single out alter to fit their own preferences with no command from God to do so. SDAs put forth the idea, that fallible mortals should not even think or try to make God's Holy Law fit their preferences, or to make it conform to church traditions, but instead do just as Jesus said to do, when He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone with His own finger, thousands of years ago. If it is a sin to break any of the other nine commandments in our day and age, why would it not be a sin to break number four of the ten? As you well know, almost all of the heavy hitters of the evangelical churches in the USA are promoting on 05.07.06 a Ten Commandments day celebration, and saying that they were made for "all mankind", and yet 99.9% of these same Chrisitan leaders are not keeping the 4th Commandment? Doesn't that seem inconsistent and disengenous to you?

Your right, very inconsistant.

 

[ThreeAM]

...You are also working with the assumption that "keeping" a commandment has some universal meaning that everybody can understand without qualification. If that were true, then Jesus did indeed not "keep" the commandments, as the Jews accused him of doing. But we know He did, and so we must rely on Him to know (and teach us) what keeping God's commandments really means - not Jewish tradition, no matter how long it was practiced before or after Christ. Christians (under Paul and the apostle's leadership - and not least of all: under supervision of the Spirit that Jesus promised the church) began underplaying the sabbath as a ceremonial day, and emphasizing resurrection day from the moment they realized the significance of what happened....

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The early Christians in Jerusalem were called Nazarenes. Paul was accused as being a "ringleader" of the Nazarenes. Paul said he did in fact believe as the Nazarenes believed.

The Nazarenes who had been taught by Paul fled Jerusalem just prior to the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70AD having fled to the mountian town of Pella.

The Nazarenes are recorded by Eppiphanius around the year 350AD to still faithfully worship on the 7th Day Sabbath.

You can find Sam Bacchiocchi's Phd [early church history] book "From Sabbath to Sunday" for free online He mentions the Nazarenes and quotes from Epiphanius' book. http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/sab2sun.pdf Dr. Bacchiocchi's book is one of the most complete books on just how the change from the sabbath to sunday came about in the early church. Dr.Bacchiocchi graduated Summa Cum Laude from the Georgian Pontifical University in Rome having the destinction of being the first protestant to graduate from the university in its 450 year history.

 

[rstrats]

Nightfire,

re: "Christians (under Paul and the apostle's leadership - and not least of all: under supervision of the Spirit that Jesus promised the church) began...emphasizing resurrection day..."

I assume that you are referring to the first day of the week even though there is no indisputable scripture that says that the resurrection occurred on that day. Also, I know of no scripture that says that the church emphasized the first day of the week because of the resurrection.

re: "When we work, we do so to the Lord, and when we rest, we do so to the Lord (cf. Rom. 14). "

The subject of Romans 14 from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. As you know, some n the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with working or not working.

 

[Oblio]

I keep hearing that we must follow the Law WRT keeping the Sabbath, yet no one has enumerated what we must do to accomplish this. Would the Sabbatarians please let us know what must be done in order to please God.

Note: I am not looking for a nebulous 'Follow the example of Jesus ...' but rather concrete examples of what is required of us.

 

[Nightfire]

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The early Christians in Jerusalem were called Nazarenes. Paul was accused as being a "ringleader" of the Nazarenes. Paul said he did in fact believe as the Nazarenes believed.

The Nazarenes who had been taught by Paul fled Jerusalem just prior to the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70AD having fled to the mountian town of Pella.

The Nazarenes are recorded by Eppiphanius around the year 350AD to still faithfully worship on the 7th Day Sabbath.

You can find Sam Bacchiocchi's Phd [early church history] book "From Sabbath to Sunday" for free online He mentions the Nazarenes and quotes from Epiphanius' book. http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/sab2sun.pdf Dr. Bacchiocchi's book is one of the most complete books on just how the change from the sabbath to sunday came about in the early church. Dr.Bacchiocchi graduated Summa Cum Laude from the Georgian Pontifical University in Rome having the destinction of being the first protestant to graduate from the university in its 450 year history.

So we must see Dr. Bacchiocchi as ringleader of the sabbatarians? Having a PhD doesn't make him infallible nor his conclusions final, as you would be quick to point out about the Sunday-beliefs of scholars with PhDs who believe the evidence shows the contrary. Do you accept the qualifications of those who passed Dr. Bacchiocchi with Cum Laude at the Georgian Pontifical University in Rome? They weren't sabbath keepers, were they?

There's something else you should consider: if the churches that were led by the other apostles could stray so completely from something as central to their faith as the ten commandments (as you suppose it must have been), why must everybody simply accept that the Nazarenes didn't stray from their apostolic teaching in the opposite direction? Paul certainly had difficulty getting the churches he wrote to to put his views into practice. We have his epistles as evidence of that.

If Paul himself believed in and kept to the Jewish tradition, he made a point of telling his audience not to judge those who believed differently. When Jesus delivers his message to the seven churches in Revelation, there is nothing about keeping the sabbath or reminding them of it - an absence that makes all the references to the "first day" stand out even brighter from its Jewish authors.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,

To put this into perspective, lets look at the big picture and the point of this topic, namely, that the majority of Christian churches profess to honor and keep the Ten Commandments, except the 4th Commandment, the Sabbath commandment, which they choose to single out alter to fit their own preferences with no command from God to do so. SDAs put forth the idea, that fallible mortals should not even think or try to make God's Holy Law fit their preferences, or to make it conform to church traditions, but instead do just as Jesus said to do, when He wrote the Ten Commandments in stone with His own finger, thousands of years ago. If it is a sin to break any of the other nine commandments in our day and age, why would it not be a sin to break number four of the ten? As you well know, almost all of the heavy hitters of the evangelical churches in the USA are promoting on 05.07.06 a Ten Commandments day celebration, and saying that they were made for "all mankind", and yet 99.9% of these same Chrisitan leaders are not keeping the 4th Commandment? Doesn't that seem inconsistent and disengenous to you?

Consistent in relation to grace or law? Most Christians worship on Sundays because Christ arose from the dead on the first day, the Bible-loving man will see the spiritual appropriateness of the first day as the Christian’s voluntary sabbath day. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (1:1). "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (1:14). It was on the first day of the week that Christ arose and so the first day, Sunday, came to be designated as the Lord's Day. On that day the early Christians gathered to worship (Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10) as do we, and in doing so we celebrate Christ's resurrection. True worship is not something that we "do" in the hope of appearing to be religious. True worship must be a constant and consistent attitude or state of mind within the believer, a sustained and blessed acknowledgement of love and admiration. We must carry our cross daily. We must love God and others. We must fulfill our commission as ambassadors of Christ among people with Grace rather than Law. It is our personal relationship to God that really matters! That takes priority over everything else.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith (Hebrews 10:12–14, 19–22).