Who hasnt been baptised?

[Alithis]

"As therefore the tares are gathered together and BURNED IN THE FIRE; so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that OFFEND, and them which do INIQUITY; And shall cast them into a furnace of FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:40-42).

Since we are four pages into this thread, and it hasn't been brought up yet.. I should point out there is going to be a final baptism of FIRE when this world ends ! And it has nothing to do with the "laying on of hands" or receiving the "Holy Ghost" !

This is precisely the baptism by fire Jesus alluded to when he said, "Do not imagine I have come to bring PEACE to the earth: I came not to bring peace, but a SWORD" (Matthew 10:34).

I imagine someone is next going to claim the final baptism by fire only applies to sinners and not to Christians. The Apostle Peter addresses this point in his First Epistle to the Churches.

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves (spiritually) likewise with the same mind: for he that suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the "fiery trial" which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you" (1 Peter 4:12).

"For the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God (1 Peter 4:17).

"Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful
Creator (1 Peter 4:19).

Obviously, the Apostle Peter does not agree the final baptism of fire only applies to non-Christians. He states emphatically in no uncertain terms the judgment must begin "at the house of God", (1 Peter 4:17).

What's next ? Are you now going to rip the First Epistle of Peter out of the Bible as well ?

It's not yet been brought up because it is a whole different topic.
And nothing your presenting states that we are not to be baptised in water .as we have already showed you the meaning of the word baptism .and how Peter preached it and did it.and how Paul preached it and then the people were baptized in water and AFTER that he prayed for them and they receivers holy spirit. Proving the command means ..baptised them in Water. !

So what?you though you'd just rip all that out of "your" bible and redirect the topic?
Repent (rethink)and stop preaching advantage commands of the Lord Jesus.
You quote that we are to Obey the gospel which instructs us to be baptised.then you oppose baptism and don't seem to realize your are teaching people to disobey the Gospel.

 

[stephen583]

It's not yet been brought up because it is a whole different topic.
And nothing your presenting states that we are not to be baptised in water .

Actually much of what I have stated indicates "water" baptism is not the only baptism mentioned in the NT. Whether it remains relevant after the Advent of Christ and his death on the cross is a matter of controversy, whether you recognize that or not makes no difference to me. From what I've seen very little Scriptural evidence is presented in your posts, which strike me as empty "demagoguery".

The OP doesn't differentiate between "water" baptism, laying on of hands (Holy Ghost Baptism, Acts 1:5), and Baptism by Fire (Matthew 3:11), the last of which doesn't even mention water baptism at all..

This is not your thread. You did not write the OP. You do not have the prerogative to define what does, or what does not fall within the subject matter of this thread !

I am not "tearing" pages out of the Bible, as a number of my posts deal directly with the biblical significance of "water" baptism. Go back and read posts 38, 48 and 51. All three deal with "water" baptism and its' significance. So your accusation about me tearing pages out of the Bible is a complete delusional fabrication.

Therefore your criticism as to what topic is or is not appropriate here, and what is and isn't Scriptural is of no interest to me.

 

[stephen583]

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

This is a perfect illustration of what I've said previously. This passage doesn't identify what "kind" of baptism Jesus might have performed.

The mere physical presence of Jesus, and the miracles he performed as well as his word alone (His word being described variously throughout the NT as "Living Water" John 4:14) was certainly sufficient to immediately bring people to repent and make them believers, without any "physical" water baptism ever taking place.

Among Scriptural proofs of this are the story of the noble man of Galilee whose son was healed of a deadly sickness, and he and his whole household believed (John 4:43-54, ) and the story of the Samaritan woman at the well, who having heard the testimony of Jesus and his prophecy believed, as did many more in the city from where the woman came (John 4:39).

There is also the story of the Roman Centurion who proclaimed it wasn't necessary for Jesus to come and heal his sick servant.. that Jesus could perform the miracle by merely speaking the words. Having heard this Jesus was amazed, and said "I say unto you, I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel" (Luke 7:9).

In none of these stories was anyone baptized with water (at least not the way John the Baptist did it).. and yet many of those effected believed... and in the last instance, according to Jesus, a Roman Centurion had greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

So I would argue it's not exactly clear what kind of baptism Jesus was performing.

 

[Alithis]

Actually much of what I have stated indicates "water" baptism is not the only baptism mentioned in the NT. Whether it remains relevant after the Advent of Christ and his death on the cross is a matter of controversy, whether you recognize that or not makes no difference to me. From what I've seen very little Scriptural evidence is presented in your posts, which strike me as empty "demagoguery".

The OP doesn't differentiate between "water" baptism, laying on of hands (Holy Ghost Baptism, Acts 1:5), and Baptism by Fire (Matthew 3:11), the last of which doesn't even mention water baptism at all..

This is not your thread. You did not write the OP. You do not have the prerogative to define what does, or what does not fall within the subject matter of this thread !

I am not "tearing" pages out of the Bible, as a number of my posts deal directly with the biblical significance of "water" baptism. Go back and read posts 38, 48 and 51. All three deal with "water" baptism and its' significance. So your accusation about me tearing pages out of the Bible is a complete delusional fabrication.

Therefore your criticism as to what topic is or is not appropriate here, and what is and isn't Scriptural is of no interest to me.

now you're laying about and being inconsistent . NO ONE has said water baptism is the "ONLY baptism" .not one not any where . but rather ,we have proven that the command to heal the sick preach the gospel drive out devils baptising them in "jesus" name ..is certainly speaking about baptising them in water . this is the point .

And the topic of the thread aks "Can you truly be a christian without being baptised?

the answer is - NO one who truly believes in Jesus and follows him ,obeying him as evidence of their love for him, would ever refuse or delay to be baptised in water the moment they learn the command to do so .
so any one who knows the command to do so and then refuses to do so is acting in rebellion and need to repent and while in that unrepentant state they are at enmity to god not in unity with him.
and as such are not HIS disciple . but rather a person walking according to their own way . the very thing those who have gone astray Do .

 

[Alithis]

This is a perfect illustration of what I've said previously. This passage doesn't identify what "kind" of baptism Jesus might have performed.

The mere physical presence of Jesus, and the miracles he performed as well as his word alone (His word being described variously throughout the NT as "Living Water" John 4:14) was certainly sufficient to immediately bring people to repent and make them believers, without any "physical" water baptism ever taking place.

Among Scriptural proofs of this are the story of the noble man of Galilee whose son was healed of a deadly sickness, and he and his whole household believed (John 4:43-54, ) and the story of the Samaritan woman at the well, who having heard the testimony of Jesus and his prophecy believed, as did many more in the city from where the woman came (John 4:39).

the holy Spirit had not yet come
so we know with certainly it was water baptism . otherwise you declare Jesus to be a liar when he said ..i must Go to the father so i can send the comforter , the Holy Spirit . that is why the 120 on the day of pentecost were not baptised in the holy Spirit until after Jesus had ascended .

you still do not understand the transaction of water baptism and your speaking in opposition to the gospel message

 

[stephen583]

the answer is - NO one who truly believes in Jesus and follows him ,obeying him as evidence of their love for him, would ever refuse or delay to be baptised in water the moment they learn the command to do so .
so any one who knows the command to do so and then refuses to do so is acting in rebellion and need to repent and while in that unrepentant state they are at enmity to god not in unity with him.
and as such are not HIS disciple . but rather a person walking according to their own way . the very thing those who have gone astray Do .

You are making the same mistake the disciples made when they came upon a man casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and they bade him to follow them.. when the man refused the disciples forbade him from doing such works, and when the disciples reported this to Jesus they were admonished for being wrong (Mark 9:38-40).

You have no place declaring who does and who doesn't serve God based on your demagoguery and your unfounded, unscriptural belief in perfunctory rituals and rites. That's for God to decide, and you are most certainly not God.

In fact, I thank God I'm not following what you are preaching.

 

[stephen583]

What is offend and iniquity, what are the Greek words, and according to who? Us? or God?

Seriously ? While the world is coming to an end and the angels are about to reap the harvest, you want to argue about Bible semantics ?

Lol. That would be like sitting in the dining room on the Titanic arguing over the best ship engineering while it is sinking.

No thanks, but you're welcome to go there.

 

[tturt]

"Of the doctrine of baptisms ,..." (Heb 6:2) Baptism means union and identification.

3 baptisms; specifically:

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is baptism for salvation (blood baptism)
(Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13: Acts 2:38: Gal 3:27, +++)

Water and Spirit baptism follow - not in a set order:
2 - By other believers, water baptism (Matt 28:19)
3 - By Jesus with or into The Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism)
(Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; Acts 11:16)

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

 

[Alithis]

You are making the same mistake the disciples made when they came upon a man casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and they bade him to follow them.. when the man refused the disciples forbade him from doing such works, and when the disciples reported this to Jesus they were admonished for being wrong (Mark 9:38-40).

You have no place declaring who does and who doesn't serve God based on your demagoguery and your unfounded, unscriptural belief in perfunctory rituals and rites. That's for God to decide, and you are most certainly not God.

In fact, I thank God I'm not following what you are preaching.

You are making the same mistake the disciples made when they came upon a man casting out demons in the name of Jesus, and they bade him to follow them.. when the man refused the disciples forbade him from doing such works, and when the disciples reported this to Jesus they were admonished for being wrong (Mark 9:38-40).

You have no place declaring who does and who doesn't serve God based on your demagoguery and your unfounded, unscriptural belief in perfunctory rituals and rites. That's for God to decide, and you are most certainly not God.

In fact, I thank God I'm not following what you are preaching.

You seem to pick words out of your head that no one has spoken and then reply to them .

 

[stephen583]

You seem to pick words out of your head that no one has spoken and then reply to them .

You spoke them. All anyone has to do is go back and read your post #84. You have stated repeatedly over and over again anyone who has not been water baptized is in rebellion against God and is disobedient to him !

You my friend are in denial ! You make statements with your own mouth and then deny you made them. You're not fooling anyone with your prevarications and your attempts to disassemble the truth.

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth" (Matthew 15:11).

 

[stephen583]

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

I John 5:7-8 has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of ritualistic "water" baptism. It is being used completely out of context. I'm pretty sure you were aware of that when you tried to use it to validate your narrative of there only being three kinds of baptism, right ?

The "water" mentioned in I John 5:7-8 refers to the "Living Water" which is God's Word. Scriptural support; John 4:10, 7:38. The Word is the water, get it ? As pointed out in John 4:10, water drawn from a well only quenches a man's thirst temporarily (John 4:13), while the Living Water of God's Word delivers eternal life and causes a man to never thirst again(John 4:14).

Your list of baptism Scripture is incomplete and misleading. You left out the final baptism of fire described in Matthew and by the Apostle Peter in his first Epistle to the Churches. Go back and read post #78 where I covered this in depth.

 

[Alithis]

You spoke them. All anyone has to do is go back and read your post #84. You have stated repeatedly over and over again anyone who has not been water baptized is in rebellion against God and is disobedient to him !

You my friend are in denial ! You make statements with your own mouth and then deny you made them. You're not fooling anyone with your prevarications and your attempts to disassemble the truth.

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth" (Matthew 15:11).

Since the Lord Jesus commanded baptism ..it is disobedience to not be baptised once we know the command.
A person who stubbornly refuses to Obey God,Does not love God. It's very simple .

 

[Alithis]

I John 5:7-8 has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of ritualistic "water" baptism. It is being used completely out of context. I'm pretty sure you were aware of that when you tried to use it to validate your narrative of there only being three kinds of baptism, right ?

The "water" mentioned in I John 5:7-8 refers to the "Living Water" which is God's Word. Scriptural support; John 4:10, 7:38. The Word is the water, get it ? As pointed out in John 4:10, water drawn from a well only quenches a man's thirst temporarily (John 4:13), while the Living Water of God's Word delivers eternal life and causes a man to never thirst again(John 4:14).

Your list of baptism Scripture is incomplete and misleading. You left out the final baptism of fire described in Matthew and by the Apostle Peter in his first Epistle to the Churches. Go back and read post #78 where I covered this in depth.

I guess you skipped the verses where Paul baptised them in water BEFORE he lays hands on the and prays( to ask earnestly) for the baptism of the holy spirit.
He is obeying the command to baptize people in water.
You use the term ritualistic ..which means you don't understand it .you think it's just ritual to Obey the living God?

 

[Hank77]

This is a perfect illustration of what I've said previously. This passage doesn't identify what "kind" of baptism Jesus might have performed.

The mere physical presence of Jesus, and the miracles he performed as well as his word alone (His word being described variously throughout the NT as "Living Water" John 4:14) was certainly sufficient to immediately bring people to repent and make them believers, without any "physical" water baptism ever taking place.

Among Scriptural proofs of this are the story of the noble man of Galilee whose son was healed of a deadly sickness, and he and his whole household believed (John 4:43-54, ) and the story of the Samaritan woman at the well, who having heard the testimony of Jesus and his prophecy believed, as did many more in the city from where the woman came (John 4:39).

There is also the story of the Roman Centurion who proclaimed it wasn't necessary for Jesus to come and heal his sick servant.. that Jesus could perform the miracle by merely speaking the words. Having heard this Jesus was amazed, and said "I say unto you, I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel" (Luke 7:9).

In none of these stories was anyone baptized with water (at least not the way John the Baptist did it).. and yet many of those effected believed... and in the last instance, according to Jesus, a Roman Centurion had greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

So I would argue it's not exactly clear what kind of baptism Jesus was performing.

I don't think anyone has said that water baptism causes anyone to believe. One is water baptized after they believe.
But one cannot come to believe without the prompting of the Holy Spirit or the drawing of the Christ and be born of God.

In John 3:22 I believe it is obvious they were water baptizing believers as the Holy Spirit baptism had not yet been given. However, the Apostles were given the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Without the Holy Spirit they could they have discerned the loosing of sins or the retaining?

Joh 20:21 Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
Joh 20:22 and this having said, he breathed on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;
Joh 20:23 if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.'

To say that one cannot have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit without water baptism would be incorrect as well.
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before he was water baptized and without the laying on of hands.

Act 10:47 Then answered Peter, `The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive--even as also we?'
Act 10:48 he commanded them also to be baptized in the name of the Lord; then they besought him to remain certain days.

So my point is that when we, mere humans, get too persnickety in our doctrines we need to remember that we are not another man's master. His Master is the Lord and the Lord will cause him to stand.

Rom 14:4 Thou--who art thou that art judging another's domestic? to his own master he doth stand or fall; and he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Hank77]

Since the Lord Jesus commanded baptism ..it is disobedience to not be baptised once we know the command.
A person who stubbornly refuses to Obey God,Does not love God. It's very simple .

If one does something that they believe is a command of God is it by faith or merely a work?
I think that is a determining factor. One must be convinced in his own mind and heart and be operating out of faith. Without faith an action means nothing as it is of the flesh not of the spirit.

 

[Alithis]

If one does something that they believe is a command of God is it by faith or merely a work?
I think that is a determining factor. One must be convinced in his own mind and heart and be operating out of faith. Without faith an action means nothing as it is of the flesh not of the spirit.

Works- of - faith.
I'm going to quote scripture and leave out added verse numbers and English punctuation.noting that faith is the action one does when they truly believe.
And inaction is what one does when one is filled with unbelief and fear.

"For by Grace you are saved through faith and the not of yourself it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works Which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them ."

 

[Hank77]

Works- of - faith.
I'm going to quote scripture and leave out added verse numbers and English punctuation.noting that faith is the action one does when they truly believe.
And inaction is what one does when one is filled with unbelief and fear.

"For by Grace you are saved through faith and the not of yourself it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works Which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them ."

Exactly, through faith.
So if one is baptized because they are told that they must but they don't see that themselves in the Word and the Lord has not convinced them of that would they be acting through faith?

Is there anywhere in scripture that says if one is not baptized they will not be saved?

 

[Alithis]

Exactly, through faith.
So if one is baptized because they are told that they must but they don't see that themselves in the Word and the Lord has not convinced them of that would they be acting through faith?

Is there anywhere in scripture that says if one is not baptized they will not be saved?

Faith -is what we do because we believe.
Abraham believed God. How do we know?
Because of his action .he took action based on what he believed. If he Did not truly believe he would not have obeyed.
Just so with us.

 

[Alithis]

Is there anywhere in scripture that says if one is not baptized they will not be saved?

Yes. The command to Obey the gospel message -which consists of 3 base foundations .
Repent
Be baptised
Recieve the holy Spirit.

 

[Hank77]

Yes. The command to Obey the gospel message -which consists of 3 base foundations .
Repent
Be baptised
Recieve the holy Spirit.

That is not a scripture that says if one is not baptized one will not be saved. Do you know one that does?