Who hasnt been baptised?

[stephen583]

Speaking of Christianity assimilating paganism, it was probably a bad idea to take a Roman temple dedicated to all the Roman gods (The Pantheon) and repurpose it as a Christian church, dedicating it to Saint Mary in 609 AD.

 

[stephen583]

-if you're going to tell people to "read the scriptures" ,perhaps it would be wise to read them ALL yourself too hmm ?

Not one of your arguments in post #60 is supported by any reference to a Scriptural chapter or verse in the Bible, while my arguments are, and then you accuse me of ignorance ?

You are simply "regurgitating" the same unsupported demagoguery you've been fed your whole life.. without even knowing where it comes from. Truly it is written;

"A dog returns to his vomit, and a sow that is washed returns to wallow in the mire" (2 Peter 2:22).

 

[Alithis]

Not one of your arguments in post #60 is supported by any reference to a Scriptural chapter or verse in the Bible, while my arguments are, and then you accuse me of ignorance ?

You are simply "regurgitating" the same unsupported demagoguery you've been fed your whole life.. without even knowing where it comes from. Truly it is written;

"A dog returns to his vomit, and a sow that is washed returns to wallow in the mire" (2 Peter 2:22).

i quoted scripture in another post there is no point going over it . but it is a regular misdirection people use .you've left off the topic of baptism in order to argue what people did or did not post because you've run out of anything to support your false theory that he is not speaking of water baptism and you thought you'd throw around a few insults while your at it .

i showed from scripture -paul asked johns disciples about the holy spirit -they said they didn't know about it ,he then asked what baptism they were baptised in ,they said johns paul teaches them they need to be baptized into Jesus . they agree and immediately did so(they had obedient hearts ) . then AFTER they had been baptized ,not before . Paul lays hands on them and they recive the holy spirit .. AFTER they were baptized into chrsit through burial in water . absolutely proving that BOTH things were taught and obeyed and that he is speaking of WATER baptism .
please do try to stay with the topic

 

[Neogaia777]

and thinks they are christian?

Can you truly be a christian without being baptised? It seems to me many people would LIKE to be but they arent baptised for some strange reason. Why not?

If you havent experienced baptism, what is your reasoning?

I have been waiting and working towards understanding some things, like the gospel, and what baptism is supposed to do, or mean to me, before getting baptized... I feel like I'm almost ready...

But, I have to find a church to belong to first, I moved and do not have a car anymore, and am no longer part of the church I was going to... When I do find another one, and have attended for a little while...? I hoping by this summer, I will belong to a another church and will get baptized...

I do feel like it's a vital, necessary step for me... I haven't thought I was quite ready and that is why I have not done it yet, but feel I am about ready now...

God Bless!

 

[Hank77]

Judas had every opportunity to be baptised but chose not to take it.

Jesus said not all of you are clean....He knew. I dont think you can fool God really.

Jesus did not mean that Judas was not clean because he hadn't been baptized.

I don't think Jesus' disciples were baptizing people and not baptizing one of the Apostles. It's pretty hard to teach baptism and have an Apostle who is not.
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

 

[Hank77]

The bible says its improtant to be baptised,without it, you have no holy spirit.

Read acts 19

This scripture is talking about the filling of the Holy Spirit which happen first at Pentecost.
John baptized with water, Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

 

[Hank77]

Just answer the question. Have you been baptised or not. If not, why not?

I have been baptized. But I know that it is not a requirement for salvation.

 

[Hank77]

I was water baptized in a Southern Baptist Church as a young man. However, one Sunday I was informed I could no longer attend Church services because my clothes were too shabby.

My family was very poor. My dad worked as a carpenter and my mom was a fast food cashier. Looking back at my old school class pictures, I have to admit the knees of my pants were a bit thread bear and shiny.. but my clothes were always very clean, especially on Sunday.

Upon hearing the news, my dad offered to buy me a suit and tie for Church.. he said we'd find the money somewhere. I told him not to bother. If Church was nothing more than a place people went to compare clothes.. I 'd rather not go back. I renounced my baptism as a Southern Baptist and never looked back.

The rest of my life I remained a "non-clerical" "non-denominational" Christian. I don't believe in organized religion, or sectarianism.

Does that count in your view ? Probably not, frankly I don't care. I don't need the approval or authorization of your Church, or any other Church to baptize someone else, (Mark 9:39, Luke 9:50).

I am very sorry that this happen to you, especially at such a young and impressionable age. I saw a similar incident happen in a church. But not all church people are like that and indeed many churches would not tolerant that type of behavior.

 

[Hank77]

i am happy to interject here on this post .
firstly let us deal with the thief on the cross ... can you explain how he was to be baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus, when jesus had neither yet died, nor been resurrected yet? he could not be . but had he that thief been rescued from the cross we all know he would have hurried to do so . so we know god sees the heart and that his intent was one of utmost sincerity . but we do not build a theology on a one off exception . jesus commanded baptism . therefore if one who claims to be his follower then refuses to FOLLOW his instructions they prove they follow "their own way " not HIS way . and this shows they have not yet Repented . and if they have neither repented nor obeyed they show they do not love him and they are rejecting his words .
they are anything but saved .

imo, you are walking on thin ice when you judge who the Lord will save and who He won't.

 

[Alithis]

imo, you are walking on thin ice when you judge who the Lord will save and who He won't.

You replying to the right post? Didn't come anywhere near making any judgment. The unrepentant are not saved. That's not up to my judgment. God's commands repentance.

 

[Hank77]

yes we lay hands on them ... and then GoD ,not us ,baptized them in the holy SPirit . go study the word baptizo... to soak dip drench .
we are to be Born of WATER and of the Spirit ..both . as paul says -In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead. .. what part of laying hands on a person is related to burial ?

and again he says
Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was.…

again i ask what part of laying hands on to pray relates to burial into christ's death ? and why is it that paul instructs those who had been baptized in water by john to be baptized again into christ and then AFTERWARD lays hands on them for the receiving of the holy ghost ?

-if you're going to tell people to "read the scriptures" ,perhaps it would be wise to read them ALL yourself too hmm ?

you should not discount his instructions simply because you do not yet understand or comprehend the need of them . Jesus did not instruct anything just because it was an empty ritual .. God NEVER does that .

Both of the scriptures you quoted are saying we are immersed in Christ or baptized in Christ. Just as the physical circumcision was an outward sign of being one with Israel, water baptism is an outward sign of being immersed in Christ, having our sins beginning wash away by His blood (death) and being raised with Him in a new life as in resurrection from a dead life.
It is not a mere, whatever you called it, it is a statement of faith, a testimony which edifies both the person and others present, and therefore glorifies God, which is the most important thing.

As for the Matthew scripture Jesus said one must be 'born again', 'born from above', 'born of water and born of Spirit.' All three mean the same thing, Jesus said it three different ways to Nicodemus.
Now he was speaking to Nicodemus before the cross, the same timing as when the thief on the cross was saved. Therefore, He is not talking about water baptism. The thief under the old covenant did not need water baptism to be saved and neither did Nicodemus being under the old covenant.
Jesus said to the woman at the well that He would give her living water. This is the same water He is referring to when speaking to Nicodemus.

 

[Hank77]

You replying to the right post? Didn't come anywhere near making any judgment. The unrepentant are not saved. That's not up to my judgment. God's commands repentance.

It sure sounds like it to me......

therefore if one who claims to be his follower then refuses to FOLLOW his instructions they prove they follow "their own way " not HIS way . and this shows they have not yet Repented . and if they have neither repented nor obeyed they show they do not love him and they are rejecting his words .
they are anything but saved .

 

[Alithis]

It sure sounds like it to me......

Then your reading into it.
It is God who commands repentance. So do you think the unrepentant who remain rebellious in being that way and are thereby at enmity to him and display they do not love him are saved? Think it through.

 

[Neogaia777]

Then your reading into it.
It is God who commands repentance. So do you think the unrepentant who remain rebellious in being that way and are thereby at enmity to him and display they do not love him are saved? Think it through.

What are we to repent of...? What does it mean to go God's way, or follow in his way or path...?

I'm asking cause I want to know and kinda need to know as I'm seriously considering baptism and for no other reason... I repent of the things he tells me to repent of, but, there are some things that I do that I know are wrong, that he hasn't addressed with me specifically... And, I think it's because he knows my limitations and knows I can not be perfect... He may address them with me later on though... When he feels I am ready...

Do I not get baptized if I can't meet up to the standard of perfection (yet) (or ever)?

God Bless!

 

[Hank77]

Then your reading into it.
It is God who commands repentance. So do you think the unrepentant who remain rebellious in being that way and are thereby at enmity to him and display they do not love him are saved? Think it through.

I don't think that someone who is not water baptized is necessarily in rebellion as you have said. And I don't think that if someone is in rebellion (backslidden) that they lose their salvation unless they totally rejected Christ, as in believing His blood is a common thing that has not justified and sanctified them. They have totally hardened their heart towards Him.

Mat 12:20 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,

 

[Dave-W]

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. - Matthew 28:18-20 ..you will note in there he says "teaching them " it must be taught (preached)what they are to do.
Then it's also repeated to teach "them" to observe (do) all he commands.
So it's very plain it is to be taught and then the person is to respond obediently.

That was a cultural understanding and expectation that did not need to be written down or even stated in the first place.

But that does NOT change the fact that in both Matt 28 and Mark 16, the command to baptize was on the evangelist, NOT the new convert. That is an important point - who exactly the onus is on for the new believer to be baptized.

And else where the list is more complete saying to heal the sick ,preach the gospel,drive out devils,..baptizing them.. Baptism is an obedient response to the instructions of the Gospel being taught.disobey if we don't teach it. they disobey if they don't respond .since repentance is the first instruction ,baptizing a person outside their will and without their repentance is nothing more then a forced swim.

Indeed.

And the Op asks "can They be christian if they are not baptised".(not are they saved)not all Christians are saved.

I would disagree on that point. If you are not saved you are not truly a christian (in the New Covenant with the Messiah); regardless of how they label themselves.

if they say they are christian and then are taught about baptism and then refuse to obey Jesus teaching.they are in a state of Un repentance. They are going "their own "way .they need to repent (rethink change there mind) and go God's way
My reply is ..until they Do they cannot be his disciples.

All who are truly repentant and are wanting to follow the Lord will be baptized when they are made aware of that need. In my case the repentance and the water tank were almost 10 years apart. That should never be. No one told me it was required and my own bible study did not bring me around to that for years. It took me hanging out with christians from another faith tradition (Church of Christ) before I saw that I was not in compliance with scriptural commands.

I believe I was saved for those 10 years, but others disagreed. So eventually I studied it out myself. It was then that I saw the command to be baptized was NOT addressed to the new believer but rather the evangelist. And if you bring up Peter's statement in Acts 2.38, think about it. Peter was fulfilling his own obligation in preaching the gospel, not passing the baton or declaring that the requirement was on the new believers.

 

[Alithis]

All who are truly repentant and are wanting to follow the Lord will be baptized when they are made aware of that need. In my case the repentance and the water tank were almost 10 years apart. That should never be. No one told me it was required and my own bible study did not bring me around to that for years. It took me hanging out with christians from another faith tradition (Church of Christ) before I saw that I was not in compliance with scriptural commands.

I believe I was saved for those 10 years, but others disagreed. So eventually I studied it out myself. It was then that I saw the command to be baptized was NOT addressed to the new believer but rather the evangelist. And if you bring up Peter's statement in Acts 2.38, think about it. Peter was fulfilling his own obligation in preaching the gospel, not passing the baton or declaring that the requirement was on the new believers.

i agree except peter was not preaching a requirement of tradition but the command of Jesus under the unction of the Holy Spirit . and they never ceased preaching it ever. i have soon to much power in it to ever think other wise. it is the point of transaction .i agree you were saved in your innocence ie lack of realisation of the obedient in doing so . but that is on the heads of those who preached a partial gospel and withhold truth from you . (pleasers of men ). it is easy to spot a full gospel .it will immediately be attacked and have naysayers surround it and jeer at it .

when you understand the actual transaction (not symbology)that occurs in water baptism by faith any believer will HURRY to obey the lord in it .

we are purchased .. no purchase, no redeeming takes place without a point of transaction .in this case it is a transaction between the physical and spiritual .there is a point of interchange .our life laid down in his by faith -his life raised up in us by faith . water baptism IS this point of transaction . (we leave out the exception which god is able to deal with and do not Make a rule nor e theology based on an exception but upon the command given us ) .

 

[stephen583]

"As therefore the tares are gathered together and BURNED IN THE FIRE; so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that OFFEND, and them which do INIQUITY; And shall cast them into a furnace of FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:40-42).

Since we are four pages into this thread, and it hasn't been brought up yet.. I should point out there is going to be a final baptism of FIRE when this world ends ! And it has nothing to do with the "laying on of hands" or receiving the "Holy Ghost" !

This is precisely the baptism by fire Jesus alluded to when he said, "Do not imagine I have come to bring PEACE to the earth: I came not to bring peace, but a SWORD" (Matthew 10:34).

I imagine someone is next going to claim the final baptism by fire only applies to sinners and not to Christians. The Apostle Peter addresses this point in his First Epistle to the Churches.

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves (spiritually) likewise with the same mind: for he that suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the "fiery trial" which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you" (1 Peter 4:12).

"For the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God (1 Peter 4:17).

"Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful
Creator (1 Peter 4:19).

Obviously, the Apostle Peter does not agree the final baptism of fire only applies to non-Christians. He states emphatically in no uncertain terms the judgment must begin "at the house of God", (1 Peter 4:17).

What's next ? Are you now going to rip the First Epistle of Peter out of the Bible as well ?

 

[Neogaia777]

"As therefore the tares are gathered together and BURNED IN THE FIRE; so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that OFFEND, and them which do INIQUITY; And shall cast them into a furnace of FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:40-42).

Since we are four pages into this thread, and it hasn't been brought up yet.. I should point out there is going to be a final baptism of FIRE when this world ends ! And it has nothing to do with the "laying on of hands" or receiving the "Holy Ghost" !

This is precisely the baptism by fire Jesus was alluding to when he said, "Do not imagine I have come to bring PEACE to the earth: I came not to bring peace, but a SWORD" (Matthew 10:34).

What is offend and iniquity, what are the Greek words, and according to who? Us? or God?

Some of are already have been baptized by fire, which is Christ's, God, the Son's emotional feelings and his personal experiences (trials and tribulations, and/or tests, or things that he was tested and tried by) that he personally went through, that work out, (if you survive and overcome), work out all iniquity and things that cause offense, so, we will not be affected by the fire or second death, having already experienced it personally... symbolized by, I believe the cup from which we drink his blood...

God Bless!

 

[stephen583]

What is offend and iniquity, what are the Greek words, and according to who? Us? or God?

I'm sure you can find those definitions somewhere. I'll give you a hint.. It has the letters "B-I-B-L-E" on the front of it.

BTW. My KJV Hebrew/Greek Study Bible has a Greek/English and Hebrew Lexicon at the back of it if you need any help with the words. It contains an extensive Concordance listing everywhere significant words appear in the Bible as well. I also have a Strong's Concordance which is even more exhaustive.