Who hasnt been baptised?

[Alithis]

This is a perfect illustration of what I've said previously. This passage doesn't identify what "kind" of baptism Jesus might have performed.

The mere physical presence of Jesus, and the miracles he performed as well as his word alone (His word being described variously throughout the NT as "Living Water" John 4:14) was certainly sufficient to immediately bring people to repent and make them believers, without any "physical" water baptism ever taking place.

Among Scriptural proofs of this are the story of the noble man of Galilee whose son was healed of a deadly sickness, and he and his whole household believed (John 4:43-54, ) and the story of the Samaritan woman at the well, who having heard the testimony of Jesus and his prophecy believed, as did many more in the city from where the woman came (John 4:39).

There is also the story of the Roman Centurion who proclaimed it wasn't necessary for Jesus to come and heal his sick servant.. that Jesus could perform the miracle by merely speaking the words. Having heard this Jesus was amazed, and said "I say unto you, I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel" (Luke 7:9).

In none of these stories was anyone baptized with water (at least not the way John the Baptist did it).. and yet many of those effected believed... and in the last instance, according to Jesus, a Roman Centurion had greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

So I would argue it's not exactly clear what kind of baptism Jesus was performing.

None of these have anything to do with baptism and healing is not confirmation of salvation. Many were healed who did not go to obey Jesus .

 

[Alithis]

That is not a scripture that says if one is not baptized one will not be saved. Do you know one that does?

It's the scripture that gives the instruction. If we truly believe the word of God (being Jesus)then we act on what he says. We don't resist what he tells us to do.

 

[Hank77]

It's the scripture that gives the instruction. If we truly believe the word of God (being Jesus)then we act on what he says. We don't resist what he tells us to do.

So what you are saying is that there are not any.

I think we may differ only in that you see someone who is a believer but by choice has not yet been baptized as positively being in rebellion and therefore, not be a true believer and I don't.

Or you believe that baptism is what regenerates and washes away sin, I'm not sure what you believe.

Paul was three days blinded before he was baptized. Do you believe that Paul was not saved until he was baptized?

 

[Neogaia777]

"As therefore the tares are gathered together and BURNED IN THE FIRE; so shall it be at the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that OFFEND, and them which do INIQUITY; And shall cast them into a furnace of FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:40-42).

Since we are four pages into this thread, and it hasn't been brought up yet.. I should point out there is going to be a final baptism of FIRE when this world ends ! And it has nothing to do with the "laying on of hands" or receiving the "Holy Ghost" !

This is precisely the baptism by fire Jesus alluded to when he said, "Do not imagine I have come to bring PEACE to the earth: I came not to bring peace, but a SWORD" (Matthew 10:34).

I imagine someone is next going to claim the final baptism by fire only applies to sinners and not to Christians. The Apostle Peter addresses this point in his First Epistle to the Churches.

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves (spiritually) likewise with the same mind: for he that suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the "fiery trial" which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you" (1 Peter 4:12).

"For the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God (1 Peter 4:17).

"Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful
Creator (1 Peter 4:19).

Obviously, the Apostle Peter does not agree the final baptism of fire only applies to non-Christians. He states emphatically in no uncertain terms the judgment must begin "at the house of God", (1 Peter 4:17).

What's next ? Are you now going to rip the First Epistle of Peter out of the Bible as well ?

What is offend and iniquity, what are the Greek words, and according to who? Us? or God?

Some of are already have been baptized by fire, which is Christ's, God, the Son's emotional feelings and his personal experiences (trials and tribulations, and/or tests, or things that he was tested and tried by) that he personally went through, that work out, (if you survive and overcome), work out all iniquity and things that cause offense, so, we will not be affected by the fire or second death, having already experienced it personally... symbolized by, I believe the cup from which we drink his blood...

God Bless!

I'm sure you can find those definitions somewhere. I'll give you a hint.. It has the letters "B-I-B-L-E" on the front of it.

BTW. My KJV Hebrew/Greek Study Bible has a Greek/English and Hebrew Lexicon at the back of it if you need any help with the words. It contains an extensive Concordance listing everywhere significant words appear in the Bible as well. I also have a Strong's Concordance which is even more exhaustive.

Offend:
1.
cause to feel upset, annoyed, or resentful.

2.
commit an illegal act.


Iniquity: 1. immoral or grossly unfair behavior.

This is different for everybody, so it must mean God, or in God's judgment...

How do we be fair to some people, like gays, and not be approving of immoral or gross behavior...

 

[Alithis]

So what you are saying is that there are not any.

I think we may differ only in that you see someone who is a believer but by choice has not yet been baptized as positively being in rebellion and therefore, not be a true believer and I don't.

Or you believe that baptism is what regenerates and washes away sin, I'm not sure what you believe.

Paul was three days blinded before he was baptized. Do you believe that Paul was not saved until he was baptized?

You do know that was not his choice ..God was sending some one to him who prayed for him then baptised him .
People need to stop trying to use one off exceptions to establish theologies.

What do you call it when some is given an instruction .then knowingly refuses to follow it? Repentant obedience?

To repent means
S change your mind from going your own way and go God's way..to follow him obediently.

Some one who constantly refuses to do so is simply disobedient . they have not yet repentance from their own way.

It's very simple. And challanging

 

[stephen583]

Sorry guys.. but I'm not interested in converting to Judaism, Judaism Lite, or any Christian sect that tries to reinstate some form of "ritualistic" temple worship (like water baptism) by a religious hierarchy. All that ended when Jesus died on the cross and the veil of the temple in Jerusalem was torn from top to bottom, (Matthew 27:50-51).

Here's what the Apostle Paul had to say about stone buildings as temples.

"God that made the world and all the things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24).

Just in case you missed it the first time, the Apostle Paul repeats the same thing in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you ?" (1 Corinthians 3:16).

Stone is just stone (Acts 17:24), and ordinary water is just water (John 4:13-14). The blood of Christ is sufficient as payment for all sin (John 1:29, Romans 4:25, 2 Corinthians 5:21), nothing more is required other than for you to believe Jesus was the Son of God, and he died for your sins, (John 3:3).

 

[Hank77]

You do know that was not his choice ..God was sending some one to him who prayed for him then baptised him .
People need to stop trying to use one off exceptions to establish theologies.

That is not what I was doing. I asked you a simple question about what YOU believed. Was Paul saved for those 3 days before he was baptized?

Please answer this question then I can know for sure where you are coming from.
Do you believe that water baptism regenerates and washes away sin?
Yes or No.

The blood of Christ is sufficient as payment for all sin

If coarse it is and I haven't, so far, heard anyone say that it isn't.

I agree with Alithis that Jesus and the Apostles told believers to be water baptized just as He told believers to partake in the Lord's Supper. So that is what we should do.

 

[Alithis]

That is not what I was doing. I asked you a simple question about what YOU believed. Was Paul saved for those 3 days before he was baptized?

Please answer this question then I can know for sure where you are coming from.
Do you believe that water baptism regenerates and washes away sin?
Yes or No.



If coarse it is and I haven't, so far, heard anyone say that it isn't.

I agree with Alithis that Jesus and the Apostles told believers to be water baptized just as He told believers to partake in the Lord's Supper. So that is what we should do.

Hank,I agree with the point you are making. I believe we are constantly being saved.
We Are saved..by faith and constantly being saved.
Paul was not being disobedient.
(I will add the text below of the account.below)
He had not yet received the command to be baptized.he was obeying God for the Lord told him "go into the city and you will be told what to do" .yet when Ananias arrives and prays for him and the scales come off his eyes and he begins to see again the very first thing done is to baptize him. So it's what he is told to do.because Ananias preaches the gospel to him of repentance and baptism .Even he could see the requirement now.(and there is a whole other lesson in that about religious scales that blind)

But in the context I spoke of it's quite different . people know of the command to repent and be baptized but for years attend all Sunday club and do neither. Because if they were to repent of their OWN ways it would be made evident by their action of going God's way. They would immediately hurry to get baptized .so in this context ,they are not yet saved in the first place.
Its an issue of true repentance .God's not fooled by fakes .
He says repent and be baptised for the remission of your sin ..and ..you will receive the holy ghost.
Later Paul explains that the baptism in the spirit is God's seal .the earnest ..it is his vindicating of the genuine believer and their genuine repentance.

This is why so many seem to fall away because they come by way of an erroneous partial gospel ,they skipped true repentance which is true obedience .
The error of the sinners prayer only. A message none of the apostles ever preached to the unsaved. People seem to fall away because they did not truly arrive in the first place .

--the acts account of saul who became Paul.--
Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”
“Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength

 

[Hank77]

But in the context I spoke of it's quite different . people know of the command to repent and be baptized but for years attend all Sunday club and do neither. Because if they were to repent of their OWN ways it would be made evident by their action of going God's way. They would immediately hurry to get baptized .so in this context ,they are not yet saved in the first place.

I'm sure that some people who do not get water baptized are not saved but that doesn't mean that is true of all. Therefore, I will not make such an extreme judgement.

 

[Open Heart]

and thinks they are christian?

Can you truly be a christian without being baptised? It seems to me many people would LIKE to be but they arent baptised for some strange reason. Why not?

If you havent experienced baptism, what is your reasoning?

I am baptized now, but for 22 years I was not, despite being a Christian.

It began with my parents being opposed to infant/child baptism, even though I was clearly being raised in the faith. I mean, I can't remember a time when I didn't love Jesus.

The truth is, my parents simply didn't consider baptism all that important. They weren't against it; they simply weren't really for it either.

When I reached the age of accountability, and made a more rational decision to live for Christ, I WOULD HAVE BEEN baptized by most churches. But my parents simply never brought it up.

When I was twelve, I expressed a desire to begin taking communion. My mom said that usually a person didn't take communion until after they were baptized. That would have been the time to take care of the baptism problem BUT...

Instead they switched church. We began attending a Friends (quaker) church which didn't believe in either baptism or communion. Thus the indoctrination period began. "Baptism is a mistaken idea. It is not only unnecessary, but it also sidetracks us from the true spiritual baptism which really counts."

By the time I became an adult, baptism was the furthest thing on my mind.

That changed when I was 22. My church was getting together a whole party of people to go down to the beach and do baptisms. For the first time since I was 12, I realized I wasn't baptized. I examined my reasons for not being baptized, and what baptism was all about. I decided that baptism was perfectly worthless BUT it was commanded by God. So, out of sheer obedience, I was baptized.

 

[stephen583]

Stephen said. The Blood of Christ is sufficient for the payment of all sin...

I haven't, so far, heard anyone say that it isn't.

I have. I've heard it expressed repeatedly in this thread time and time again, that anyone who hasn't been "water" baptized and doesn't receive communion is being "willfully disobedient" to God and is a sinner !

You're certainly welcome to show me one place in the NT where it explicitly says that. Where are you making this "nexus" between not observing some religious ritual and sin ? Show me the chapter and verse where it says you need to perform any temple ritual (in addition to recognizing Jesus died for our sins) in order for someone to be cleansed of all sin !

In fact, I read exactly the opposite in the Gospel.

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity" (Matthew 23:28).

 

[Hank77]

I have. I've heard it expressed repeatedly in this thread time and time again, that anyone who hasn't been "water" baptized and doesn't receive communion is being "willfully disobedient" to God and is a sinner !

If someone is aware that Jesus gave a command to believers and refuses to obey that command are they in disobedience? Is disobedience sin?

You're certainly welcome to show me one place in the NT where it explicitly says that.

Seeing I haven't said that a person who does not get water baptized is in rebellion and deliberate disobedience you will have to ask someone who has.

Where are you making this "nexus" between not observing some religious ritual and sin ?

Are Christians commanded to be baptized?

Show me the chapter and verse where it says you need to perform any temple ritual (in addition to recognizing Jesus died for our sins) in order for someone to be cleansed of all sin !

Would you please describe 'temple ritual'?

Can a Christian, after recognizing Jesus as their Redeemer and being born again of the Spirit, still sin? If so do they need to repent of that sin?

Can you see why someone might question whether someone has been born of God, received justification in the Christ, if they refuse to obey a command given by the Christ?

 

[Alithis]

I'm sure that some people who do not get water baptized are not saved but that doesn't mean that is true of all. Therefore, I will not make such an extreme judgement.

so which would you preach ..i assure you i wil preach what the scripture says . " repent , and be baptised for the remission of your sin .we must not oppose the word of God
so for the many who refuse to obey the GOSPEL .they do not get saved by disobedience , but repentance which is turning away from disobedience UNTO obedience

 

[Alithis]

I am baptized now, but for 22 years I was not, despite being a Christian.

It began with my parents being opposed to infant/child baptism, even though I was clearly being raised in the faith. I mean, I can't remember a time when I didn't love Jesus.

The truth is, my parents simply didn't consider baptism all that important. They weren't against it; they simply weren't really for it either.

When I reached the age of accountability, and made a more rational decision to live for Christ, I WOULD HAVE BEEN baptized by most churches. But my parents simply never brought it up.

When I was twelve, I expressed a desire to begin taking communion. My mom said that usually a person didn't take communion until after they were baptized. That would have been the time to take care of the baptism problem BUT...

Instead they switched church. We began attending a Friends (quaker) church which didn't believe in either baptism or communion. Thus the indoctrination period began. "Baptism is a mistaken idea. It is not only unnecessary, but it also sidetracks us from the true spiritual baptism which really counts."

By the time I became an adult, baptism was the furthest thing on my mind.

That changed when I was 22. My church was getting together a whole party of people to go down to the beach and do baptisms. For the first time since I was 12, I realized I wasn't baptized. I examined my reasons for not being baptized, and what baptism was all about. I decided that baptism was perfectly worthless BUT it was commanded by God. So, out of sheer obedience, I was baptized.

so which would you preach ..i assure you i wil preach what the scripture says . " repent , and be baptised for the remission of your sin .we must not oppose the word of God
so for the many who refuse to obey the GOSPEL .they do not get saved by disobedience , but repentance which is turning away from disobedience UNTO obedience

baptised into what and do you mean sprinkeld ?

 

[stephen583]

Would you please describe 'temple ritual'?

A "temple ritual" is any rite administered by a religious hierarchy (priesthood, clergy, ect.) which conditions Christians to believe it's necessary for them to enter a temple or Church building and participate in some "ritual" to honor God. This represents a clear throwback to Judaism. It includes but is not limited to marriage ceremonies, confessions, communions, Bible studies and religious education, as well as certifications, funerary services, baptisms and tithing.

What this does is create a belief in someone's mind that human religious institutions and temple rituals are primarily responsible for salvation.. and not the belief in Christ's sacrifice as being completely "sufficient" alone.

 

[Goodbook]

Three witnesses...the blood. The WATER and the spirit.

Havent heard of a dry baptism...

See 1 John 5:5-8


Its not by water alone, but water is still essential.

 

[Goodbook]

Everyone who became a christian in the book of Acts got baptised. Both gentile and jewish believers. And water was part of that baptism.

It wasnt a ritual. It was a requirement - a command and still is.

 

[Goodbook]

If for some reason you havent been baptised then stop making excuses and obey the Lord.

What is hindering you?

 

[Goodbook]

Also note that Paul did not say a sinners prayer and then forget to be baptised. He did it as soon as he was able to.

Dont be in limbo about your faith.

 

[stephen583]

Can a Christian, after recognizing Jesus as their Redeemer and being born again of the Spirit, still sin? If so do they need to repent of that sin?

Everyone falls short of the Glory of God. We sin continually, even those who believe Christ died for their sins. No one can be inoculated against committing sin, certainly not by water baptism ! Not even the blood of Christ can do that. That's why Christ was ransomed for our sin (past, present and future sins).

The Scripture says no one is good, except GOD (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19). It also says;

"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and the love of God is not in us" (1 John 1:10).

So yes, it is essential a Christian continually repent of his sins, even though that sin has been washed away by the blood of Christ, and is forgiven and forgotten by God.

BTW. Repentance comes from within, it does not come from making a spectacle out of one's repentance through public acts of contrition, or grand public displays of one's supposed "righteous" behavior thereafter, (Matthew 23:28).