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Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jamdoc, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

    Revelation 16:1
    Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

    Wouldn't you be surprised if you were a believer and still found yourself on the earth at that point?
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While John is addressing (talking to) the seven churches (Revelation 1:4), he is talking about how things are going to end in regards for the whole world. The every eye that shall see him is in reference to every human being in existence.

    “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” (Revelation 1:7).​

    For even those who pierced him will see him.

    Okay, lets read Revelation 19.

    “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14).​

    The armies which were... IN HEAVEN.... FOLLOWED HIM (JESUS) upon white horses.

    Now, behold the scene in 1 Thessalonians 4:

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).​

    So in the 1 Thessalonians 4 event, we see that both those believers who died, and those believers who are still alive will be taken up to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. This does not say that they are already in HEAVEN and coming down on white horses in following the Lord. These are clearly TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS going on here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    John is addressing the 7 churches in Revelation 1:4.
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    In the Western, democratic countries, such as my own; New Zealand, the 'rapture to heaven' theory is quite prevalent. But where Christians have persecution, then no; they reject that pretentious idea.

    Letter from Corrie Ten Boom - 1974
    "The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers. Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

    My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

    We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

    Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

    "He that overcometh shall inherit all things:
    and I will be His God,
    and he shall be My son."

    This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

    Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
    "Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence.
    She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

    It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

    There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

    In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

    "We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
    Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
    how to stand when the tribulation comes,
    – to stand and not faint."

    I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
    We are next.

    Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

    When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

    "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
    for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
    on their part evil is spoken of,
    but on your part He is glorified."
    (I Peter 3:14)

    I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
    Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

    In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

    Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

    The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

    The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

    "When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
    "Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
    "Tell me," said Father,
    "When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
    when do I give you the money for the ticket?
    Three weeks before?"


    "No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

    "That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
    Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
    He will supply all you need – just in time…"


    My African friends were nodding and smiling.
    Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

    " In the sweet, by and by,
    we shall meet on that beautiful shore."

    Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
    I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

    But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

    How can we get ready for the persecution?

    First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

    Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
    but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
    and sitting at the right hand of God.

    We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

    In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
    But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
    The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

    Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
    But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

    When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

    "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)

    for I know that to all who overcome,
    He shall give the crown of life.
    Hallelujah!"

    - Corrie Ten Boom - 1974
     
  5. Silverback

    Silverback Well-Known Member

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    I agree...mostly, I don't really buy into the rapture, I'm amillinial, and do not believe in an exact seven years of tribulation either.

    I do believe humanity is headed for very hard times, worse than we could ever imagine. followed by the second advent of Christ.

    But the rapture...it's not for me, it to sensational, and grandiose, and when that happens it usually turns out to be false...IMHO.

    I always thought the doctrine of the rapture was an American invention, when I was posted to Greece, they had never heard of it, nor the 1000 year reign of Christ, nor the tribulation.

    I will agree with you on being treated as a godless heathen, heretic, and apostate for not embracing some or all of these doctrines.

    The good part is none are a salvation issue.
     
  6. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't but some people's religious training can almost make them think that way. I had an elder of a strong evangelical church once tell me as a teenager asking if I really thought I was saved because I didn't believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. (I did believe in Pre-Wrath though and that was before books came out a few years later saying the same)

    I mean can one imagine the thief on the cross asking for mercy and have Jesus say, "All depends. Do you believe in a Pre-Trib rapture?"
     
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  7. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    I'm not Pre-Trib but Pre-Wrath....similar in a way...takes place before the wrath of God. But why too sensational and grandiose? Because it seems strange or unusual? We do read that Enoch was caught away and Elijah taken up in a fiery chariot. So why would you not think this possible for today?
     
  8. Silverback

    Silverback Well-Known Member

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    They were individuals, (2) since creation, not untold millions just disappearing, seems different to be.
     
  9. East of Eden

    East of Eden Well-Known Member

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    The whole notion of the Rapture only came about in the early 1800s. How many Second Comings are there. IMHO it is part of the health and wealth gospel, where people think we shouldn't have to suffer through the tribulation. Jesus suffered, why shouldn't we?
     
  10. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    There's a difference between tribulation and The Great Tribulation. We have the former to varying degrees throughout our entire life, some because of being a Christian, and some not. The latter is a reference to a particular point in time when a particular individual eventually becomes a world leader and is basically the embodiment of Satan--a mirror version of Christ being the human form of God.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Millions have been killed for their Christian faith.
    Why do people today think they will be exempted?

    When the test comes, we must stand strong in our faith. 1 Peter 4:12
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I was originally Pre-Trib, but then I became Pre-Wrath for like a few days or a week until I was later presented with more evidence in God's Word for the Pre-Trib Rapture.

    My hang up with a Pre-Wrath is that the gathering in the Middle of the Tribulation sounds a lot different than the gathering up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The event in 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 (the Pre-Trib Rapture) does not sound like a gathering up by angels like we read about in the Olivet Discourse. For if our bodies are changed into being like that of angels, we do not need any assistance in being gathered by angels. For we will become like the angels in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

    Also, the Bible talks about the marriage call (i.e. Pre-Trib Rapture) (Matthew 25:1-13), and a call to the remaining servants after the wedding ceremony has taken place. For Luke 12 says: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36). Since God's people are not appointed unto Wrath (i.e. the Wrath in the second half of the Tribulation), then these two calls for believers will happen before the Wrath of God happens (Which is the really bad stuff mentioned in Revelation that is poured out on the inhabitants of this earth).
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    “...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6).

    “Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?” (Matthew 20:12-15).
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe to whom much is given, much is required. I believe that a Christian can be saved or okay with the Lord if they are unaware of any Eschatology in the Bible yet (if they are new to the faith or if they accepted Jesus on their deathbed). But if they have time to study His Word and to truly be aware of such a truth, I believe God can hold it against a believer. For to deny the Lord's imminent return is to not be watchful at any moment is to deny the plain reading of Scripture. The other Gathering Up Viewpoints (that happen later, i.e. Pre-Wrath, or Post Trib) are not imminent. They do not require you to be ready at any day or hour for the Lord because you are looking for the correct signs to then make yourself ready.

    God wants us to live holy and righteous. If we are not living according to what His Word says, we can miss out on the Rapture. Many who even believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture are not going to make it because they believe that they can sin and still be saved on some level. The Rapture is a wake up call to Christians today. Those who do not believe His Word plainly will have a hard time. They will get that Tribulation that they always wanted knowing that they could have missed out on it. If that happened to me, it would be like a punch to the gut. Knowing that if you had faith, you could have been with the Lord instead of going through one of the most insane times in human history. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the only view whereby you have the most to lose. I am not really going to miss out on anything if I hold to a Mid Trib or Post Trib viewpoint. For if I am wrong, and the Pre-Trib Rapture does not happen, then I will say it is Mid Trib or Pre-Wrath. If that does not happen, then I will be Post Trib. So nothing has really changed but my being mistaken about Scripture. I have lost nothing. But if I am wrong on the Pre-Trib Rapture, I will just have to face the music that I will have to go through some really bad stuff. But that is God's choice. What if a person accepts Christ on their deathbed? What if God takes me home before the Tribulation happens?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  15. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Part of my reasoning is the character of God Himself. His sense of justice. the unbelieving world won't be left in the dark as to why they're experiencing the trumpets and bowls, they will know and Revelation confirms this in the passages I gave where people curse God and hide themselves from the face of God
    I think Revelation 6:12-17, giving the cosmic signs always connected with the day of the Lord, is that moment when every eye sees Him. The first 5 seals? All that's done by men, God is just removing seals that prevented those things from happening on their own but without God restraining them, they were always going to happen, because men are wicked, and all 5 of the results of the first 5 seals are actions performed by men. It's only seals 6 and beyond that are direct supernatural actions, "acts of God".

    When Jesus is on the mount of olives and Armageddon later, every eye won't be seeing Him. Not even through technology, as there are isolated tribes which do not have the technology to watch a broadcast. So no, I don't see Revelation 19 as the "coming in the clouds with power and great glory" and I don't see Revelation 19 as "every eye shall see Him"
    I see it at the sixth seal, If he's in the sky, and the sun and moon are darkened and the stars aren't giving their light, then Jesus is the only thing in the sky to see, and he'd be visible world wide over the course of a day.
    That's overt, and even just seeing Jesus sitting on a throne in the clouds, people will KNOW that they have been wrong all this time, and KNOW that they have been wicked, and KNOW that they're about to be judged and found guilty.
    It fits the justice of the Lord for everyone to know why He is judging them a lot better than a poof with man coming up with their own explanations.
     
  16. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    an individual local church, like the church at Ephesus, instead of referring to the entire body of Christ as a whole. When John wrote and talked about churches he was referring to specific churches in specific towns rather than the church as a whole institution. Paul was more likely to use church in a big institutional sense.

    Yeah, sometimes you pray, and God says "no", and it can lead to thoughts that God doesn't want you to be happy. It's a tough thing to reconcile.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I think the unbeliever's knowledge in the End Times will be limited still. Why? Can they actually believe they can stop the Creator of the Universe? They apparently think they can because they wage war against Him.

    I agree that Luke 21:27 happens in the Middle of the Tribulation before God pours out His Wrath upon the Earth.

    As for every eye shall see Him:

    Well, I am not dogmatic on when that will happen. It could happen when Jesus reveals Himself in the middle of the Tribulation, or it may happen at His Second Coming.

    It certainly is possible, but it could happen either way. I will let the Lord decide on that one. Nothing is concrete and set in stone on this point. It does make logical sense, but then, the Lord could just as easily show they are wrong when they stand at the Judgment. Remember, God wants faith, too. In Revelation 9:21, they still are not repenting of their sins (even after all the bad stuff is happening). God wants them to repent and so faith would be a necessary component of that. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. God is giving them one last chance to repent. Yes, I believe the Lord will be seen by the wicked in the middle of the Tribulation, but will it be all people? Only the Lord truly knows. I tend to lean that every eye will see Him at His Second Coming. Because at that point. It's too late. No more repenting. He is coming to bring justice. No more faith because He will reveal Himself to all. But again, I could be wrong, and it could play out like you say, too. We just don't know. That is why I am not dogmatic when it comes to Eschatology. I believe the most important thing we should know about Eschatology is being ready for our Lord spiritually. We should be looking any day or hour for His return like a good watchman. The later Eschatological viewpoints other than the Pre-Trib Rapture seems to run against me being ready (living holy now) and looking for my Lord at any day or hour. We must ready. We must looking and watching. That does not sound like it fits the later viewpoints. For if we say the Lord delays His coming, we can begin to beat our fellow servants.
     
  18. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    So something I want to point out since again this isn't a debate about rapture TIMING but about how the rapture manifests.
    It's come up a few times from apparently post trib that it's unbiblical that those raptured go to heaven.

    In Revelation 6:9-11, there are people's SOULS in heaven. But John makes the distinction, that they do not have bodies.

    In Revelation 7:9-17 there are PEOPLE in heaven, and they have body parts, and are doing things that require bodies to do, like wearing clothes and holding objects in their hands, and God wiping away tears from their eyes. They are not said to be souls, so it is a valid interpretation to believe that these are people who have been resurrected or raptured and are in heaven in bodies.

    similarly Revelation 15:2, people having come out of the Great Tribulation, in heaven, holding objects (something you need a body for)

    So there is biblical support for people being in heaven after the resurrection/rapture.

    I can also understand a post trib position of interpreting Jesus' prayer in John 17
    So there is also a verse that supports not going to heaven, and I can understand your interpretation despite my own position.

    So with both positions having a biblical foundation, the difference between whether the rapture takes people to heaven or not, is not a matter of either position being unbiblical.
    What we should all agree on however, is that the saints are caught up to the Earth's atmosphere first.
    and that right there should preclude the popular "poof" manifestation.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't think there is any “poof” (teleportation) manifestation even in Rapture movies. I don't think teleportation is taught in churches, either. Sure, they disappear, but that simply means that they are invisible. Such a thing is not in contradiction of the saint going up to meet the Lord in the air within the clouds as taught by Pre-Trib Christians. They are changed into having the bodies like that of angels. Angels can make themselves invisible to human eyes. So I see the disappearance of Christians in the Rapture as simply their being turned into angels (Whereby they most likely would be invisible to human eyes). It's not a contradiction of Scripture.
     
  20. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing with my interpretation of Revelation being 2 parallel narratives, 2 witnesses if you will.

    In both Narratives, after Jesus comes in the clouds in Revelation 6 and Revelation 14? There is no more repenting.
    That's striking to me. In both Revelation 9 and Revelation 16 during the wrath of God being poured out there's only cursing God.
    That's why I think the delusion might be that God is not good even though God has been visible in the sky and people then accept God as being a real being. That's why earlier I stressed that saving faith is not just accepting that God exists and God created everyone, but you have to have a foundation of God's goodness, because even the devils believe and tremble.

    There is only one group of people that appears to repent after Jesus appears in the clouds before the trumpets and bowls.. and that is the Remnant in Israel.

    Revelation 11:13
    That's that fulfillment of the promise that Israel will be saved. But I think by that point? The time of the gentiles has already come to fullness. No more gentile believers after the wrath of God begins.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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