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Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jamdoc, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    One of the things is.. I don't know if John refers to the Church as a singular collective entity the way that Paul does. When John mentions "church" it's usually an individual congregation.
    so the word church not appearing after chapter 3 (which chapters 2 and 3 are letters to specific congregations) doesn't strike me as proof of anything, I don't put stock in it. The events John describes affects the entire world and the resurrection encompasses all those in Christ not just "the church", old testament saints are included too. So if John used the word church to mean specific congregations, he wouldn't address the things happening as to one church or another because these are global events.

    The word church is not mentioned in Revelation 19-22 either.
     
  2. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    And most people have no clue what a heresy is - it’s not any doctrine that one disagrees with - it’s the denial of essential core beliefs in Christianity: His virgin birth, His sinless life, His death on a cross in our place, and His bodily resurrection from the dead after three days.

    Dispensationalism, and pretrib rapture don’t qualify as heresy.

    Shalom.
     
  3. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and I am far from a fan of Dispensationalism, and the Pretrib rapture.
     
  4. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Deity of Christ and the bible being the Word of God and not just written by humans as general wisdom also being essential doctrines that if people deviate from would constitute heresy.

    Everything else though isn't really core beliefs. That get violated but are doctrines that people have various different interpretations on.

    Romans 14, is a good thing to consider in regards to these minor doctrinal differences even if they seem like a big deal to us at the time.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Then the pre-trib rapture to heaven, is just an outright false teaching.

    Dispensationalism needs to be defined, as there ARE time periods when God allows His Plans to be worked out. The Christian era is one of them.
    The 'Church' is the 'Ecclesia', or the congregation of people who are faithful to Jesus and to God. Pedantics about the name is foolishness.

    We DO see the holy people of God in Revelation 13:7, paralleled by Daniel 7:25 and it is them who experience Eternity, Revelation 22:3-5
     
  6. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    You missed my point entirely
    my point is actually agreeing with you, that the term John uses is saints rather than the word church.
    when John uses the word church it's about specific congregations.
    When John is talking about believers as a whole he uses the word saints, and when he's directly addressing believers directly, he calls them beloved.
    In 3 John he's referring to a specific congregation, and in Revelation he's really just writing down what Jesus dictates to him, not really his own voice. But when he's describing what he sees happening to end time's believers, he refers to them as saints, not "the church"
     
  7. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    They get it from the same place they get all of their doctrines.... from their imaginations.
     
  8. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi since we are still on this side of the events taking place the proof of what view is correct will play out in the future and you are cashing your victory now before the game has played out. I could very well call your view heretical if you like and present a scriptural case for it.

    The futurist see Jesus coming for his church as a separate event to coming with his church and that is the difference as no one knows the day or hour so we are to be ready and occupied until then. It is interesting that many new age prophets are all in line saying that the earth is about to change into an Aquarian age and that millions of people will indeed vanish and it will be the ones who are holding the planet back from attaining higher consciousness. Aka Christians. Do they know something is coming and are creating a cover story for it?

    At any rate the churches that stayed open and defied the government were by and large dispensational churches and they showed some spine against this NWO global reset agenda. The events are coming and people are getting saved every week with this heresy as you call it one of the tenants used to share the victory over sin and death by Jesus. If you are on board with that I think we can disagree in a friendly manner on eschatology and wait and see what will happen.

    It may very well be we will have a thousand years to gloat and then at the end of the 1000 years we might be arguing again as to how and when Satan is loosed. God's word will come to pass.
     
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  9. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    I don’t claim to have a perfect understanding of eschatology, but after 30 plus years of reading the scriptures to see what they say, instead of studying someone’s proof texts, I’m 95% or more convinced there will be a mid trib, pre mark, pre wrath, premillennial rapture.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I have seen any amount of 'scriptural cases' for the pre-trib rapture. None of them have a clear scripture for such a thing to happen, it all conjecture and assumptions.
    But what I present to counter their theory, is firstly the six times that Jesus said no one goes to heaven and he prayed that God NOT remove His people, where you cannot come, etc.
    Secondly; the many prophesies that do tell us of our destiny and what our tasks are before Jesus Returns.
    The redeeming feature of your belief, is that it isn't a salvation issue.
    However, many of the rapture believers will be so distraught when it doesn't happen, when the prophesied disasters strike, they will renounce God; to their eternal loss.
     
  11. JMV

    JMV New Member

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    "10/7/05 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
    The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy

    For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

    Thus says The Lord: If The Son of Man is coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, and every eye shall see Him, how then does He also come as a thief?

    Here is wisdom: The Son of Man comes at a day and hour unknown, to spoil the house of the strong man. And that which belongs to The Lord shall be taken, and that which is of the strong man shall be left. For The Son of Man comes first as spirit poured out on the nations, to call upon His elect. Behold, He shall pass through the multitudes and peer deep into the heart of every vessel, and bundle them together. And on a day which no one knows, at an hour no one can predict, The Son of Man shall come as a thief and steal them away. Then shall the lawless one be revealed, whom The Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming, as it is written. I AM THE LORD."

    For
    "Thus says The Lord: Behold, I reveal to you a mystery concerning these I have chosen, of whom I am also sending, these who must remain and gather together the second harvest, My witnesses who shall shout The Lord’s Proclamation. These shall be left, according to the perception of men who remain upon the earth in that day, yet taken according to those who are changed and come to know My dwelling place. For such is the way and power of The Lord, for those who come to live in Me and move within My spirit.
    Yet how can they be both left and taken, you ask. I tell you the truth, they shall be even as a rose in full bloom, both uprooted and replanted in one swift stroke. For those whom I have chosen, who are of the special offering, must be changed, or how shall I send them and how shall they go for Me? By what means shall they endure, when death stalks them as the prey? For as it is written: Unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved.
    Behold, they shall move through the multitude unhindered, both seen and unseen, heard and rejected. They shall be as vinedressers in My vineyard, men of promise until the time, husbandmen in the Great and Terrible Day of The Lord. Yet they shall by no means be given up as lambs to the slaughter, for they shall all be mighty men! They shall roar like young lions; behold, with a resounding roar I shall speak through them! And they shall make a great noise, even in the midst of this most ungodly generation! - A terrible sound assaulting the ears of this wicked multitude who hate My name and My coming, a loud shout, a blaring trumpet, breaking down the walls, leaving them desolate![2]
    Yet to the wild wheat, the broken and refined wheat, those ripe for the second harvest, to them My witnesses shall be as a welcomed rain in the midst of a ten-year drought, a shelter from the heat at the height of summer, even as singing doves set on a high branch beckoning all who hear to spy them out.


    Yes these, My chosen, shall be left in the
    Day of The Lord as beacons, to guide those
    Who yet grovel in the dark, seeking respite;
    A strong arm to lean upon for those who yet lack a foothold,
    Servants who see clearly though night has fallen...

    Therefore, beloved, trust in My ways;
    Run not ahead, nor lag behind;
    Take My hand and embrace Me tightly...

    For the time has come, says The Lord."

    Thus says the Lord YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH is His name! Three fulfilled, one is and three are coming quickly...

    "Behold, four are fulfilled:
    Salvation assured,
    Sin and death overcome,
    The Spirit given...

    Three are coming quickly:
    Sin destroyed, evil bound,
    My seat taken, Judgment...

    A new day, even one thousand years...

    Then a short season,
    Consummation...

    An everlasting day in The Lord!"
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While we do not know with 100% certainty if the Pre-Trib Rapture is visible for all to see or secret, the idea that believers vanish is definitely within the realm of possibility. For one, Jesus said this:

    “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:25).​

    In other words, we will receive the body like that of angels in the Rapture. Angels can appear to be invisible to other people. The donkey had seen the angel of the Lord but Balaam did not initially see the angel until later (See: Numbers 22:22-31).

    The apostle Paul says,

    “There is a natural body,
    and there is a spiritual body.”
    (1 Corinthians 15:44).​

    Paul also says,

    “It is sown a natural body;
    it is raised a spiritual body.”
    (1 Corinthians 15:44).​

    Paul also says,

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,...” (1 Corinthians 15:51-54).​

    Nothing is said as to whether unbelievers will hear the trumpet call or not. But it definitely is possible that they may hear something but they will not know exactly what it is.

    For example, we read in Scripture:

    “Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.” (John 12:28-30).​

    In this instance some people heard God speak but they thought it was an angel speaking. Other people heard what they thought was the sound of thunder. Is it possible that the same thing could happen with the noise of the trumpet during the rapture? I would say, “yes.” It certainly is a possibility. People may hear a noise during the Rapture, but they may have no idea what it was. Notice what other men had heard during Saul's encounter with Christ whereby the Lord Jesus spoke to Saul (Paul) while others were with him.

    “And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” (Acts of the Apostles 22:6-9).​

    Is it possible that Jesus coming down to meet believers in the air is only visible to the body of believers that meet Him?

    Well, Jesus was able to vanish in the crowd

    “...but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” (John 8:59).​

    Jesus disappears in front of his disciples.

    “And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.” (Luke 24:30-31).
    So yes. The Pre-Trib Rapture can most definitely be a secret from the rest of the unbelieving world. For there is nothing in Scripture stating the Rapture event must be visible and clearly heard by unbelievers.

    I hope this helps, and may God bless you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What I have to wonder, is this belief in a secret rapture something that is shared by others worldwide, or is this mainly a United States of America belief, mainly shared among Christians in this country? The reason I ask this, there are other places on the planet where the martyring of Christians in our day and time has been extreme. Some have even had their heads cut off. I wonder if places like that, that there are some living there that believe in a secrtet rapture before it's supposed to get that bad for Christians? In the USA it obviously hasn't gotten to a level like this yet, which to some Christians in this country, meaning Pretribbers, this indicates that the GT hasn't begun then.

    I wonder if other places on this planet where Christians are being persecuted in an extremely harsh manner, if any of them think the GT has not begun yet? Also, why didn't a secret rapture deliver them from things like this before it ever got that bad for them? Or is that only meaning in the USA, that a secret rapture will deliver Christians in this country before it ever gets to a level like that, where they might chop off your head for being a Christian?
     
  14. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

    We do know with 100% certainty that when Christ returns that it's visible for all. He's telling the churches this.
     
  15. Chris V++

    Chris V++ Socially Distancing Supporter

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    I've heard a position that the 'Tribulation' has been happing since the time Acts was written. Nero using Christians as torches seems like tribulation.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Raptue and the Second Coming are clearly two different events. In the Rapture, Christ is meeting the church in the air. In the Second Coming, Jesus is coming down to the Earth with His saints.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus did not say popular is the way that leads unto life. Jesus said narrow is the way. While many evangelical Christians here in America believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I believe many of them will miss out on it because they did believe holy living (after being saved by God’s grace) is a requirement so as to be Raptured. Most churches today do not take following Jesus seriously and they say you can sin and still be saved on some level.
     
  18. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    Again, Christ is telling the "churches" that every eye shall see him.
     
  19. CleanSoul

    CleanSoul Member

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    Amen! What comes next is the sheep over here, the goats over there, in other words; the final judgement. We receive our eternal bodies, at least the majority of people, or those who haven't already.

    I'm not sure what you mean by congregation.

    I know what you mean. It reminds me of Paul who prayed to have the "thorn" in his life removed.
     
  20. CleanSoul

    CleanSoul Member

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    I'm missing where you see, churches, plural.
     
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