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Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jamdoc, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    disregarding rapture timing, I fail to understand where the popular trope of just people suddenly vanishing into thin air that you see in well, virtually every movie depiction of a rapture ever comes from biblically.

    In the most widely accepted "this is the rapture" passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    It's Jesus coming down from heaven, and there's a shout, the voice of an archangel, and a trumpet, it's not secret, it's pretty noisy, it's a big overt display.
    But particularly pretribulation believers, depict it as just vanishing, No Jesus in the clouds, no shout, no trumpet, no Archangel.
    They see it as people are going to not know what just happened and be confused, where, biblically, it would be pretty obvious when you have Jesus in the clouds and every eye sees Him.
    In Revelation, during the wrath of God, it doesn't say that people are confused and don't know what happened.
    Revelation 6:15-17
    These people know exactly who caused these events and that there's more to come.

    Revelation 16:8-9
    Revelation 16:21
    The people aren't deceived into some Alien abduction theory or other common ideas about how the rapture is going to be "explained away". They know what happened and who's responsible and instead of repenting they curse God.

    Whatever your rapture timing, it's clear in the bible that the rapture is not secret but very out in the open and people know the cause and what comes next.

    I just don't understand how people come to the idea that it is a secret that needs to be explained away.
     
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  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured". The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.

    The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.

    They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.


    The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.


    Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos. If you go to a dispensationalist church, the people may hand you an armload of books to read about dispensationalist doctrines. They will invite you to sit through their biased Bible studies and maybe have you watch dispensationalist teachers on videos or in conferences. They will use all kinds of sophistry in their sermons. They will take scriptures out of context and make them infer a meaning that simply isn’t there. They will say that you are not a "Bible-believer" if you refuse to believe in dispensationalism. They will also tell you that you have to, "rightly divide the word of truth" as if the scriptures will lead you to dispensationalist conclusions. Then they may send more books home with you to read. If you remain unconvinced, they may berate you, and maybe even call you a heretic and will consign you to the hell they think is to come onto the earth.


    All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.
     
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  3. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    it's less about the timing, and more about how the event happens.
    Paul does teach that there's a resurrection when Jesus comes back and those who are alive get caught up to meet Him in the air. It's signaled by Jesus shouting, an Archangel, and a trumpet, 3 noises.
    Therefore it can't be silent and mysterious.
    Whether that happens before during or after the 70th week of Daniel is inconsequential to this thread.
    What is the subject of the thread is the "secret" or "silent" portrayal of the event and that in itself is unbiblical.
    We're not talking about timing but rather how it's portrayed to happen.
     
  4. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    It's not a secret but only those who know His voice and meaning make any sense of it. Millions of people are gone, it certainly is not hidden. In the rapture ( Latin Vulgate word raptuos or in Greek Hapazo), which is the most massive of other examples in the bible, Jesus comes to the clouds. So:
    1 the church goes to be with Him ( His bride), to meet Him in the clouds. And the dead bodies as well to which those gone before ( dead) have now gotten converted glorified bodies. And so shall ever be with Him. This is an imminent event the world system can't understand.

    2 Physical Return of Christ, He gathers from the four corners of heaven, this is seen in all His glory as He returns to earth with His saints ( His bride) and lands feet on the ground. This is immediately after the events of the tribulation, things have been devastated, 2/3 of the worlds population wiped out and anyone of Christ in that time should full well expect His landing and glory as the skies light up over it..

    The sense of secret is people not understanding it. And again:

    The saints leave earth to be with Him.

    Then they He returns to earth with them.

    Your request was no timing so I'm leaving that out.
     
  5. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It all happens in a "twinkle of an eye " . Be blessed.
     
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  6. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    Alot of people don't read past into chapter 5 where Paul names this very event in 4 "-the day of the Lord" And even further still into 2nd Thessalonians where the subject hasn't changed and because of the Thessalonians confusion from his first letter- he has to nail down the timing for them. He's actually a second witness to Christ's teachings in the gospels and even in Revelation Christ says "every eye" shall see him. Definitely not a secret. A suprise for sure for many, but not a secret.

    But people will believe what they want to believe.

    Yes, at the "last trump"
     
  7. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I think they'll understand what happened
    Our God is a just God, he doesn't just do bad things to an entire world while they're confused as to why this happens. He wants them to know exactly why this happened. That's why the white throne of judgement. God already knows our sins, it's not like He needs to go over them to convict us and punish us, the Throne of Judgement is not for Him, it's for us. For us to know that everyone who goes to hell, deserves to be there. That God has not done ANYTHING unjustly.
    In the scripture examples I gave from Revelation, the people seem to be conscious that this is the wrath of God, and that they deserve it. One of the illustrations that I believe takes place before the wrath of God because of how I read Revelation, is Revelation 14:6-11

    They're told why they are being judged, and there is a message of grace and a warning that precedes it.
    So they know it is the wrath of God, they know what's happening,

    Some people think of the grand delusion from 2 Thessalonians 2 as to why there needs to be an Alien deception or Age of Aquarius or some other explanation for the rapture to "cover it up". I don't think the grand delusion is anything like that, but rather that either the Antichrist is God/the Christ, or.. and this is something that my study of Revelation especially those passages where they blaspheme His name instead of repenting led me to, along with my own experience, and my own struggles and my own doubts...
    The belief that while God exists and is real, He is not Good.
    They know He's there, and they know that He's the cause of all these calamities, but instead of seeing it as justice for their sins, they curse God because they believe God is cruel and not good.

    James 2:19
    It's not enough to believe that God exists, that's not faith. You have to trust God, and for you to trust God you have to believe He's good.
    Because these people can't believe that God is good, they cannot put their trust and faith in Him, even though they know He's real.

    I struggle with that belief myself sometimes, because of things that happen to me, and I believe it's the source of many of our sins, the idea that God wants to prevent us from having any fun, or God doesn't want us to enjoy anything

    Demons know God exists, and Demons fear what God can do to them. What demons lack, is a trust that God is good. That's why they fell away.
     
  8. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a thread about timing.
     
  9. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    Not sure if this is relevant, but it certainly is a parallel.
    The New Age movement has a similar belief that the world will enter a new dimension, and that those who aren't able to pass through to the next dimension will be "left behind". In Christian terms, this would be the world's way of explaining how a great number of people have suddenly disappeared off the earth.
    So if the Enemy already has an explanation for the Rapture as many Christians understand it, it would seem to enforce the idea that it is a real event that happens before the Tribulation or Wrath of God is poured out.
     
  10. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

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    It's a mash-up of the passage in Thessalonians with Christ's narrative in Matthew 24.

    ..about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f]">[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

    42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
     
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  11. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, I think when it happens it'll be so overt that it won't need a coverup, people will know what happened. Regardless of timing.
    I think the idea to have a coverup is only a thing that pretribulationists have because they're looking at the idea that if people witnessed the rapture and knew what it was, that everyone would become a believer and nobody would take the mark of the beast etc, the entire globe would become "tribulation saints" so they think there's a need to have a plausible coverup story to "explain away" the rapture.
    But I don't think it's necessary even in a pretribulation rapture scenario. I think that what people will lack is a belief that God is good. In this context of a mother who is not a believer has her children get raptured. Because she is not a believer, she won't understand that people don't go to heaven by "being good people" by the world's standards or rather she doesn't understand that there are no good people.
    From her perspective, God took her children away from her, and is now pouring out calamities on the world over "minor" sins that don't deserve it, because she has a worldly perspective of what makes a "good person".
    She may harden her heart and believe that God exists, but is evil.
    There's no need for coverup.. it just becomes a heart issue.
     
  12. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    Okay I can see that, they're taking a literal interpretation of Matthew 24 (which they normally claim isn't to the Church but I guess they pick and choose which verses are applicable to them), but not a literal interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4. I think both can be taken fairly literally.
     
  13. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

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    as follow-up, the rapture is not Orthodox teaching. However, it was the belief in the tradition I was raised in. The thief in the night permeates the thought behind the rapture.
    Read the lyrics to the Larry Norman song I wish we'd all been ready, it was a precursor to the Left Behind books/series.
    In fact, there was a low-budget Christian film called A Thief in the Night that used the Larry Norman song as a theme, early 70s era.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

    From human fancy. . .
     
  15. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of people have the term "rapture" itself become a stumbling block, because of this popular portrayal of it just being people vanishing without Jesus appearing in the clouds, no trumpet, archangel, shout, resurrection, etc.

    They've associated the term "rapture" with a pretribulation poof from the movies rather than with 1 Thessalonians 4.
    When I use the term rapture I'm referring to 1 Thessalonians 4. Whether that takes place pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, or posttrib. The biblical "rapture" or more accurately harpazo should be understood as being a reference to 1 Thessalonians 4.
     
  16. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    There are other verses that people view as symbolic of a rapture. Revelation 4:1 where John hears a voice that says, "Come up here" and is instantly in Heaven. After that, there is no more mention of the church on the earth, even though it was mentioned many times in Revelation before that.
     
  17. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that's a false interpretation.
    The rapture is first and foremost, an appearance of Jesus in the clouds.
    It's not God calling us instantly up to heaven.
    It's God coming down from heaven and calling us whether alive or dead in Christ, up to meet him in the air, not heaven, in the air.

    Whether they continue on up to heaven from there or not, is a matter of different interpretations, most rapture positions have a continuation on up into heaven, pre wrath in particular points out Revelation 7 as happening just after the rapture. Post trib doesn't believe they go to heaven at all, but meet Jesus in the air then come right back down.

    But the thing that is common across all positions, if we stick to the bible, is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, in which Jesus comes down, and we meet Him in the air, rather than in the third Heaven, so the "poof" rapture is wholly unbiblical.
    The "twinkling of an eye" that Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 15 is not the whole rapture process as in people instantly poof in Heaven, but rather the change to our bodies, from mortal to immortal bodies. That takes place in the twinkling of an eye. But we still meet Jesus in the atmosphere of earth, which would be visible, rather than a poof.
    Have to compare scripture to scripture and reconcile them. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 both have to be true. Which makes the "Left Behind" depiction of the rapture a lie, regardless of timing. Just the way it manifests.
     
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    So, where is the Church mentioned in Revelation 4:1? This must be proof (according to your reasoning) that the Church is not here.
     
  19. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

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    Not in that verse, but the parts of Revelation up to that point.
     
  20. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    But you are arguing the non-mention of the word Church after Rev 4:1 proves it is not on earth. Am i right? But the word “Church” is not found in the heavenly passages between Revelation 4 and 19. Using your logic, then they must not be in heaven either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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