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Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jamdoc, Apr 24, 2021.

  1. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    United States
    The Bible says they appear as men. They do not appear as Angels. It is their appearance that changes. No one is claiming they turn into men, except you. You claim God created them a special way to be men. God created them as Angels. God allows them to appear as men, not be men. Angels do not morph into men. No angels were created as men. Angels are the stars we see in the sky. Some angels have other purposes. The sons of God were also light beings on earth. They held the image of God, and God is Light. Adam lost that ability when Adam physically and spiritually died. Adam gave us the corruptible image of his fallen dead self. No more light, no spirit as a robe of white, and a dead corruptible body. That is what we got.
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Okay, I never said that the angels actually become men physically. You keep asserting that idea when it simply is not true, my friend. The Bible describes angels in the apperance of men (i.e. not that they stopped being angels or that they stopped having spiritual bodies). Anyways, when I say that you believe that angels morph into men, I am talking about APPEARANCE only (like an illusion), and not in substance. Created angels always remain as angels. But you implied that the angels put on some kind of illusion that they were men (Suggesting that they do not look like men in any way while in their fully revealed form with no illussion). If this is the case, I disagree with that viewpoint. Nothing in Scripture suggests angels who appear as men are doing so as a part of an illusion to cover up the fact that they do not look like men while in their fully revealed angelic appearance. Yes, I am aware in Scripture that some angels do not look like men. But this is not indicative proof that all angels are that way.
  3. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Why DO people believe in a rapture to heaven?

    It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.

    It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.

    But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because some scriptures can be made to infer the idea of a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none of them actually say that any living people will be taken to heaven.

    As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous Christian people and the rest of the world are the ungodly peoples, doomed for destruction.

    But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while ethnic Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian: ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.

    With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 and 1 Peter 4:12 make crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for all the faithful Christians to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    You duck around the evidence presented. I have showed you multiple times and you have yet been able to dismiss one of these watertight passages that forbids your beliefs. I present them more for the observer than you. You are already convinced of your error.

    Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

    Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

    Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

    The Bible says they are alive.

    Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

    Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the redeemed can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

    Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

    Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

    Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

    When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

    I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

    Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

    Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

    Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

    Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

    The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

    The just are clearly “comforted” here.

    The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

    But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

    Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

    Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

    Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

    2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

    ‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

    ‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

    Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

    Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

    1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

    The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”


    Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

    In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

    Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

    And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

    Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

    The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

    Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

    Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

    Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

    Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

    The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

    Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    Revelation 7 never mentions heaven. The vast multitude are on the earth, in Jerusalem.
    That God does allow those souls to cry out at times, does not mean they are alive.
    Jesus' Words are convincing!
    Jesus said:
    1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
    Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

    2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
    They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Rev 6.

    3/ John 7:33-34I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
    A plain statement that also applies forever.

    4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
    Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

    5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
    Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

    6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
    This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
  6. Aldebaran

    Aldebaran Star Power!

    One question about Israel:
    If the physical nation of Israel isn't the Israel spoken of in the last days in scripture, why have they become so successful in becoming a nation again after being scattered across the globe, been singled out for persecution (such as during the Holocaust), and still are threatened with extinction by enemies that want to wipe them out? It would seem that if they weren't the ones spoken of in scripture in the last days, they'd be left alone as irrelevant.
  7. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    One can always find such occurrences in the world which appear to parallel the Scriptures yet contradict the text. Your guide must be the Bible...blindly so...because Satan is tricky....we are not unaware of his schemes. ( II Corinthians 2:11)
    Satan parades around as an angel of light and so it is no wonder that he should set up a look-alike kingdom or series of events to mimic the end time events of the Scriptures.
    We must therefore let Scripture speak to us...the road gets very narrow.
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  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    New Zealand
    This is part of God's Plan. As prophesied by Jesus; the fig tree budding....Matthew 24:32
    Note; that the 'fig tree', that is Judah, the Jewish people; have come into leaf, that is; achieved prosperity, BUT - they fail to bear 'fruit'! Spiritual fruit.

    The holy Land is still important in God's eyes. Deuteronomy 11:11-12
    He will clear and cleanse it; Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:1-18,+
    Note too; it is the holy people of God who are there in the end times, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7
    Last edited: May 1, 2021