Where DO people get the "secret rapture" doctrine from?

[Jamdoc]

I don't think there is any “poof” (teleportation) manifestation even in Rapture movies. I don't think teleportation is taught in churches, either. Sure, they disappear, but that simply means that they are invisible. Such a thing is not in contradiction of the saint going up to meet the Lord in the air within the clouds as taught by Pre-Trib Christians. They are changed into having the bodies like that of angels. Angels can make themselves invisible to human eyes. So I see the disappearance of Christians in the Rapture as simply their being turned into angels (Whereby they most likely would be invisible to human eyes). It's not a contradiction of Scripture.

Nah the movies definitely show a poof. With clothes left on the ground, in one series I saw they were folded up neatly stacked on top of each other which frankly I found hilarious. Often times they disappear and they're like, the pilot of a plane or driving a car and the car crashes. They didn't just turn invisible they vanished completely and were no longer there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here's the thing with my interpretation of Revelation being 2 parallel narratives, 2 witnesses if you will.

In both Narratives, after Jesus comes in the clouds in Revelation 6 and Revelation 14? There is no more repenting.
That's striking to me. In both Revelation 9 and Revelation 6 during the wrath of God being poured out there's only cursing God.
That's why I think the delusion might be that God is not good even though God has been visible in the sky and people then accept God as being a real being. That's why earlier I stressed that saving faith is not just accepting that God exists and God created everyone, but you have to have a foundation of God's goodness, because even the devils believe and tremble.

There is only one group of people that appears to repent after Jesus appears in the clouds before the trumpets and bowls.. and that is the Remnant in Israel.

Revelation 11:13


That's that fulfillment of the promise that Israel will be saved. But I think by that point? The time of the gentiles has already come to fullness. No more gentile believers after the wrath of God begins.

At the sixth trumpet (See: Revelation 9:13):

Revelation 9:20-21 says
“And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”​

So there was a chance still given to them to repent leading up to the six trumpet even.

 

[chad kincham]

I was originally Pre-Trib, but then I became Pre-Wrath for like a few days or a week until I was later presented with more evidence in God's Word for the Pre-Trib Rapture.

My hang up with a Pre-Wrath is that the gathering in the Middle of the Tribulation sounds a lot different than the gathering up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The event in 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 (the Pre-Trib Rapture) does not sound like a gathering up by angels like we read about in the Olivet Discourse. For if our bodies are changed into being like that of angels, we do not need any assistance in being gathered by angels. For we will become like the angels in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Also, the Bible talks about the marriage call (i.e. Pre-Trib Rapture) (Matthew 25:1-13), and a call to the remaining servants after the wedding ceremony has taken place. For Luke 12 says: "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36). Since God's people are not appointed unto Wrath (i.e. the Wrath in the second half of the Tribulation), then these two calls for believers will happen before the Wrath of God happens (Which is the really bad stuff mentioned in Revelation that is poured out on the inhabitants of this earth).

The fact of the mid trib rapture can be shown in just two scriptures.


The tribulation is divided into two parts: the first 42 months are general tribulation, and the last 42 months are the great tribulation: the mark of the beast, the war against the saints, all occur in the second half.


In Luke ch. 21, Jesus describes the great tribulation. After describing those events that will occur, Jesus said:


(1) Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Jesus taught that believers will escape the events of the great tribulation, if they are worthy (lukewarm believers get left behind, too).


The fact that believers escape the great tribulation, disallows a post trib rapture, because a post trib rapture obviously does not avoid going through the great trib.


Now on to the scripture, where Paul tells us what must happen before we are gathered together to be with the Lord:


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The apostle Paul wrote that we will not be gathered together to be with Jesus, until first the son of perdition reveals himself to be the antichrist beyond any doubt, by stepping into the temple and proclaiming that he is God.


This is describing the event Daniel describes as occurring in the middle of the tribulation, ( the seven weeks) when the AC steps into the temple, stops the sacrifice, and declares himself to be God.


Thus the rapture can not take place until the mid trib point in time.


When you consider the two scriptures given, you find the first passage in Luke 21 allows a mid trib rapture, but not a post trib rapture.


So now we remove the possibility of post trib rapture.


Passage two in 2 Thessalonians 2, allows for a mid trib or post trib rapture, but not pre trib.


So now we remove the possibility of the pre trib rapture.


The only event allowed by both scriptures, is the mid trib rapture.


Ergo, with only two Bible passages, the mid trib rapture has been proved.

There are more scriptures for the mid trib rapture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nah the movies definitely show a poof. With clothes left on the ground, in one series I saw they were folded up neatly stacked on top of each other which frankly I found hilarious. Often times they disappear and they're like, the pilot of a plane or driving a car and the car crashes. They didn't just turn invisible they vanished completely and were no longer there.

A spiritual body like an angel can be not only invisible but intangible. How do we know? Well, we know fallen angels can possess a person and animals. Jesus cast a group of demons into a bunch of swine. So it is not illogical to assume that the clothes would fall off them if they were being called to go up.

 

[chad kincham]

At the sixth trumpet (See: Revelation 9:13):

Revelation 9:20-21 says
“And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”​

So there was a chance still given to them to repent leading up to the six trumpet even.

The rapture is at the last trumpet, which is the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The fact of the mid trib rapture can be shown in just two scriptures.


The tribulation is divided into two parts: the first 42 months are general tribulation, and the last 42 months are the great tribulation: the mark of the beast, the war against the saints, all occur in the second half.


In Luke ch. 21, Jesus describes the great tribulation. After describing those events that will occur, Jesus said:


(1) Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Jesus taught that believers will escape the events of the great tribulation, if they are worthy (lukewarm believers get left behind, too).


The fact that believers escape the great tribulation, disallows a post trib rapture, because a post trib rapture obviously does not avoid going through the great trib.


Now on to the scripture, where Paul tells us what must happen before we are gathered together to be with the Lord:


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The apostle Paul wrote that we will not be gathered together to be with Jesus, until first the son of perdition reveals himself to be the antichrist beyond any doubt, by stepping into the temple and proclaiming that he is God.


This is describing the event Daniel describes as occurring in the middle of the tribulation, ( the seven weeks) when the AC steps into the temple, stops the sacrifice, and declares himself to be God.


Thus the rapture can not take place until the mid trib point in time.


When you consider the two scriptures given, you find the first passage in Luke 21 allows a mid trib rapture, but not a post trib rapture.


So now we remove the possibility of post trib rapture.


Passage two in 2 Thessalonians 2, allows for a mid trib or post trib rapture, but not pre trib.


So now we remove the possibility of the pre trib rapture.


The only event allowed by both scriptures, is the mid trib rapture.


Ergo, with only two Bible passages, the mid trib rapture has been proved.

There are more scriptures for the mid trib rapture.

Without reading all of your post, I want to first say to you that I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, AND a Mid Trib Gathering Up by Angels.

#1. The gathering up event in 1 Thess. 4, and 1 Cor. 15 does not sound the same as the gathering up event in the Olivet Discourse (or Middle of the Tribulation).

#2. The Marriage Call vs. the Call For Those Servants after the Marriage.

(a) Matthew 25:10-13
(the Marriage Call) - The Pre-Trib Rapture.

“And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” (Matthew 25:10-13).
​

(b) Luke 12:36
(Men who wait for their Lord after the Wedding) - The Mid Trib Gathering Up By Angels.

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).
​

#3. We will have angelic bodies in the Rapture (See 1 Corinthians 15:44, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, Matthew 22:30). Why would we need any help by angels to be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air if we are also angels? Would we not have the same capability as angels to fly up to meet Jesus in the air? This suggests that the gathering up by angels in the Olivet Discourse (or Mid Trib) is a different event because these believers need help in being taken up (by the help of angels).

I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from, and may the Lord bless you today.

Peace be unto you in the Lord.

 

[Aldebaran]

Here's the thing with my interpretation of Revelation being 2 parallel narratives, 2 witnesses if you will.

In both Narratives, after Jesus comes in the clouds in Revelation 6 and Revelation 14? There is no more repenting.
That's striking to me. In both Revelation 9 and Revelation 16 during the wrath of God being poured out there's only cursing God.
That's why I think the delusion might be that God is not good even though God has been visible in the sky and people then accept God as being a real being. That's why earlier I stressed that saving faith is not just accepting that God exists and God created everyone, but you have to have a foundation of God's goodness, because even the devils believe and tremble.

There is only one group of people that appears to repent after Jesus appears in the clouds before the trumpets and bowls.. and that is the Remnant in Israel.

There is some evidence that there is still time to repent. In Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people".

This indicates 2 important things here. First, the church that is normally around and charged with preaching the gospel is no longer present to do the job. Second, people still have the opportunity to repent in response to the gospel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The rapture is at the last trumpet, which is the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

Again, I believe there are two gathering up like events.

#1. Pre-Trib Rapture.
#2. Mid-Trib Gathering up of the Elect by Angels.

I believe the “Gathering up of the Elect by Angels” takes place right before the 7th seal takes place or it could occur during the 7th seal. So in a way, we are in agreement. I just believe there is an additional gathering up event (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture).

Side Note:

I spoke merely in a slightly negative view against the Mid-Trib Only viewpoint because of those verses that teach Imminency. It's not that I would divide over this issue, brother. But I would encourage all believers to be ready and watching for the Lord every hour, today, and tomorrow. The Lord can return at any second or any minute. We have to waiting and watching for His return. But even if that does not happen, we could also be taken by death unexpectedly, too. Hence, why we should always be living holy unto the Lord and always encouraging others to follow the Lord Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the Wrath of God begins with the trumpet Judgments (after the seventh seal is broken).
This happens as a result of 4,5, 6.
The 4th seal is death (and it is the Antichrist/Beast killing everyone trying to enforce the Mark).
The 5th seal is the saints in Heaven who cry out for justice on the account of their being martyred by the Antichrist/Beast.
The 6th seal and 7th seals (Which leads to the trumpet judgments or the Wrath of God) is God's response to the call of his saints crying for vengeance over what the Antichrist did to them.

This is important to understand because Christians are not appointed unto Wrath.
The Wrath is against the Antichrist and his regime, and those who refuse to repent still.

 

[Jamdoc]

At the sixth trumpet (See: Revelation 9:13):

Revelation 9:20-21 says
“And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”​

So there was a chance still given to them to repent leading up to the six trumpet even.

They have a "chance" on technicality but God knows the future and knows what everyone will choose. He'd know at that point, nobody outside of the Remnant of Israel would choose to repent.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe the Wrath of God begins with the trumpet Judgments (after the seventh seal is broken).
This happens as a result of 4,5, 6.
The 4th seal is death (and it is the Antichrist/Beast killing everyone trying to enforce the Mark).
The 5th seal is the saints in Heaven who cry out for justice on the account of their being martyred by the Antichrist/Beast.
The 6th seal and 7th seals (Which leads to the trumpet judgments or the Wrath of God) is God's response to the call of his saints crying for vengeance over what the Antichrist did to them.

This is important to understand because Christians are not appointed unto Wrath.
The Wrath is against the Antichrist and his regime, and those who refuse to repent still.

Which I wholeheartedly agree with. That's mostly another topic though.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They have a "chance" on technicality but God knows the future and knows what everyone will choose. He'd know at that point, nobody outside of the Remnant of Israel would choose to repent.

My point is that in order for them to repent, they must have faith. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. While again, I am open to every eye seeing Him in the Middle of the Tribulation as mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, I tend to lean a little more to the possibility that this will happen at His 2nd coming because of faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Which I wholeheartedly agree with. That's mostly another topic though.

I am glad we can agree on certain things.

May the Lord bless you this fine evening.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is some evidence that there is still time to repent. In Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven with an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people".

This indicates 2 important things here. First, the church that is normally around and charged with preaching the gospel is no longer present to do the job. Second, people still have the opportunity to repent in response to the gospel.

That's why I said that it was something particular to how I read Revelation as 2 parallel narratives.
if you read Revelation start to finish as being in Chronological order, you will not see what I see, because what you see is God bringing wrath on the world, Jesus coming back in Revelation 11, and then.... immediately handing control of the world back to Satan for 42 months.

I think it's a wonky way to read it.

I see parallel in events and so duplications, so I see 2 narratives, and that made everything click into place neatly.

So in Revelation 14, you have Jesus in the clouds, reaping the earth (the first reaping is done by Jesus and those are not put through the wrath of God, the second reaping is done by an angel and that is put through the wrath of God), similarly after the 6th seal, you have the signs that Jesus gave that immediately preceeded His coming in the clouds. You have the wailing and mourning by the people on earth, and they even identify that they are hiding from Jesus' face. I believe they are able to see Him, so I see Jesus in the clouds in Revelation 6, and in Revelation 14. Both of which take place after intense persecution, in Revelation 6 it's at the 5th seal. In Revelation 13 it's the mark of the beast. Both of these events take place just before a scene where the saints are in heaven, and both of these events precede the wrath of God, the trumpets, and the vials.

I reconcile these passages as being 2 different ways of showing the same event, rather than seeing Jesus coming in the clouds twice and having the mark of the beast come after the trumpets.

so the picture painted for me is, there's been martyring and the mark of the beast, then suddenly the sun and moon go dark and there's a great earthquake, and then the angels go out telling people not to take the mark of the beast and preaching the gospel, this is .. last chance. Then Jesus appears. if they haven't accepted the gospel at that point... I don't think they will, outside of the remnant in Israel.

 

[keras]

In Revelation 7:9-17 there are PEOPLE in heaven, and they have body parts, and are doing things that require bodies to do, like wearing clothes and holding objects in their hands, and God wiping away tears from their eyes. They are not said to be souls, so it is a valid interpretation to believe that these are people who have been resurrected or raptured and are in heaven in bodies.

This is a prime example of a wrong assumption, made to suit a false belief.
Revelation 7 is a chapter entirely about earthly scenes and events. Proved by how the first verses describe earthly happenings and there is no change of location later. Even Revelation 7:15-17is on earth; in the New Jerusalem, after the Millennium.

The 144,000 and the vast multitude are all people still on earth. They will see the Lord and God on His Throne, just as Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen could see them. As stated in Revelation 14:1.

 

[CleanSoul]

They are changed into having the bodies like that of angels. Angels can make themselves invisible to human eyes. So I see the disappearance of Christians in the Rapture as simply their being turned into angels

You realize man does not become angels in heaven, right? Not any more than we become cats, or rabbits. We do not become different creatures.

It's not a contradiction of Scripture.

It's a contradiction of nature, and a matter of self-interpretation.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is a prime example of a wrong assumption, made to suit a false belief.
Revelation 7 is a chapter entirely about earthly scenes and events. Proved by how the first verses describe earthly happenings and there is no change of location later. Even Revelation 7:15-17is on earth; in the New Jerusalem, after the Millennium.

The 144,000 and the vast multitude are all people still on earth. They will see the Lord and God on His Throne, just as Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen could see them. As stated in Revelation 14:1.

They're before the throne.
not earth.
In 15:2, they are standing on top of the sea of glass. which is in heaven in the temple of God.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Raptue and the Second Coming are clearly two different events. In the Rapture, Christ is meeting the church in the air. In the Second Coming, Jesus is coming down to the Earth with His saints.

Bible references please? Just the chapter and verses will suffice here...thanks in advance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You realize man does not become angels in heaven, right? Not any more than we become cats, or rabbits. We do not become different creatures.
It's a contradiction of nature, and a matter of self-interpretation.

“...with God nothing shall be impossible” (Luke 1:37).
For Jesus said: “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30).
And the apostle Paul said: “There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44).
“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44).
“We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,” (1 Corinthians 15:51).
For: “...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Corinthians 15:50).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bible references please? Just the chapter and verses will suffice here...thanks in advance.

See post #42 for the verse references.

If you are looking to check out my exhaustive End Times Chronology, you can check that out here (if you are interested):

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology