Futurist Only When do Futurists believe the Second Coming of Christ will be?

[d taylor]

But you can't stop with those verses, if you continue to read on you'll see that Paul calls this very event -the Day of the Lord. That's the very same "day" he's talking about in 2nd Thessalonians.

You need to read further, the subject doesn't stop and goes right into chapter 5 -same subject.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is not a pretrib rapture. That sudden destruction is God's wrath after the tribulation.

That is right after the church is rapture suddenly, destruction comes upon the world left on earth.

you should keep reading.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

4991. sótéria
welfare, prosperity, deliverance, preservation, salvation, safety.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That is right after the church is rapture suddenly, destruction comes upon the world left on earth.

you should keep reading.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

4991. sótéria
welfare, prosperity, deliverance, preservation, salvation, safety.

You indicated that the destruction that comes with the day of the Lord occurs "right after" the church is raptured. I agree. It's not 3.5 or 7 years later. It's "right after", as you said. But, what is your understanding of the scope of destruction that occurs on the day of the Lord? Does it match what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

 

[JulieB67]

For God did not appoint us to wrath,

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation.

I used to believe as you did as well but it's not biblical to believe Christ returns 2 more times.

 

[d taylor]

You indicated that the destruction that comes with the day of the Lord occurs "right after" the church is raptured. I agree. It's not 3.5 or 7 years later. It's "right after", as you said. But, what is your understanding of the scope of destruction that occurs on the day of the Lord? Does it match what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12?

As i understand the earth is fairly well destroyed burnt up, as close or more to something like the flood, except more people survive. There will be a new earth for The Messiah's 1000 year rule.

But to address your first point i just post what the Bible stated. The rapture is not The day of the Lord. The rapture comes before this 7 year time of the day of the Lord. The destruction really comes at the end of the day of the Lord

 

[d taylor]

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation.

I used to believe as you did as well but it's not biblical to believe Christ returns 2 more times.

If you did believe as i do, you do not state what i believe correctly. So i am not sure you did believe as i do.

I never stated Christ returns 2 more time. My position is really simple, I have stated that The Messiah return is in two parts and is one coming.

First The Messiah leaves heaven and meets the raptured church in the clouds where they (The Messiah and the church) tabernacle for seven years. Then Messiah leaves the clouds of heaven and arrives on earth to fight for Israel.

Clouds are around 6,7,8 - 10 miles high so The Messiah is not far from earth when He tabernacles in the clouds for seven years.

So He does not come twice, His coming has two parts.

 

[JulieB67]

If you did believe as i do, you do not state what i believe correctly. So i am not sure you did believe as i do.

I don't believe as you do. I stated I "used" to believe as you do. But I found that belief not biblical at all.

Some people cling to 1st Thessalonians 4:16/17 thinking it's some sort of pretrib rapture and that's not even the original subject of the chapter. People were worried about their loved ones that had passed on. Paul explains about what happens when Christ returns to give them some comfort. And continues on in chapter 5 with more detail about his return. And then on top of that wrote a second letter to nail down the timing of our gathering back to him. He makes it pretty clear.

 

[d taylor]

I don't believe as you do. I stated I "used" to believe as you do. But I found that belief not biblical at all.

Some people cling to 1st Thessalonians 4:16/17 thinking it's some sort of pretrib rapture and that's not even the original subject of the chapter. People were worried about their loved ones that had passed on. Paul explains about what happens when Christ returns to give them some comfort. And continues on in chapter 5 with more detail about his return. And then on top of that wrote a second letter to nail down the timing of our gathering back to him. He makes it pretty clear.

No, if you did once believe as i do, then you would have been able to state what i believe accurately but you did not.

 

[JulieB67]

No, if you did once believe as i do, then you would have been able to state what i believe accurately but you did not.

ETA I misunderstood you at first (reading too fast) but wanted to clarify again that I used to believe as you do.

I used to believe the Lord returned in the air "before the tribulation" to rapture believers away for 7 years- leaving everyone else to go through the tribulation and then returned afterwards. That's a belief I had for many years having been "taught" that in the church I grew up in. Is that not what you believe?

 

[d taylor]

ETA I misunderstood you at first (reading too fast) but wanted to clarify again that I used to believe as you do.

I used to believe the Lord returned in the air "before the tribulation" to rapture believers away for 7 years- leaving everyone else to go through the tribulation and then returned afterwards. That's a belief I had for many years having been "taught" that in the church I grew up in. Is that not what you believe?

No that is not what i believe, what is this, then return?

 

[JulieB67]

No that is not what i believe, what is this, then return?

You don't believe that Christ comes for his believers before the rapture, whisks them away for seven years and then returns to earth after the tribulation to start his 1000 year reign?

Even if it's a variation of that belief it's very similar to what I once believed, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As i understand the earth is fairly well destroyed burnt up, as close or more to something like the flood, except more people survive. There will be a new earth for The Messiah's 1000 year rule.

But to address your first point i just post what the Bible stated. The rapture is not The day of the Lord. The rapture comes before this 7 year time of the day of the Lord. The destruction really comes at the end of the day of the Lord

You're kind of all over the place with your perspective. I can't make any sense of it. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Paul equates "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" with "the day of the Lord", so your claim that the rapture is not the day of the Lord contradicts what Paul taught.

 

[Timtofly]

As i understand the earth is fairly well destroyed burnt up, as close or more to something like the flood, except more people survive. There will be a new earth for The Messiah's 1000 year rule.

But to address your first point i just post what the Bible stated. The rapture is not The day of the Lord. The rapture comes before this 7 year time of the day of the Lord. The destruction really comes at the end of the day of the Lord

The Day of the Lord is the whole 1,000 year reign on earth.

The Tribulation is the final harvest. It is Tribulation because all of humanity will come to an end. It is not a war where some die, and some remain to live on. By the time the 7th Trumpet starts the final harvest should be complete. If it is not, then humanity will have to endure 42 more months with Satan in charge. When Satan is given full authority, that is the AoD. Any harvest left consist of those beheaded. So the harvest is all about ending this dead flesh.

The church is taken out, prior to the judgment where Jesus as Prince decides who is the sheep who receive eternal life, or the goats placed in the LOF. The same with the wheat and tares. It is the angels who remove souls and takes them to their eternal destinations.

The difference between tribulation and persecution, is that persecution is directed at the church now. Tribulation is the trouble the lost are facing directly from Jesus Christ the Prince.

 

[d taylor]

You're kind of all over the place with your perspective. I can't make any sense of it. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 Paul equates "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" with "the day of the Lord", so your claim that the rapture is not the day of the Lord contradicts what Paul taught.

No actually i am not, in some post before. I was not exactly clear on a commentary i was reading. So i email the writers and got a clearer explanation.

Which is 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-4 is not about the rapture but about the day of Christ which is the bema seat judgment (judgment seat of The Messiah) where believers are judged for loss or gain of rewards.

My original mistake was thinking this was about the rapture being that verse 1 states, gathering together to Him. But that is not about the rapture but the gathering together is the gathering of believers at the end of the tribulation for the judgment seat of The Messiah.

It is know that this is what this is, because the day of Christ is always a reference to the bema seat judgment.

But the question is, in some Bible translations instead of using the day of Christ. The day of the Lord is used but that does not fit with these verses. Being that the day of the Lord is a reference to the tribulation and can not come after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

 

[d taylor]

You don't believe that Christ comes for his believers before the rapture, whisks them away for seven years and then returns to earth after the tribulation to start his 1000 year reign?

Even if it's a variation of that belief it's very similar to what I once believed, I'll just leave it at that.

Again what do you mean by whisk them away and then returns. Do you mean He takes them to heaven.

 

[d taylor]

The Day of the Lord is the whole 1,000 year reign on earth.

The Tribulation is the final harvest. It is Tribulation because all of humanity will come to an end. It is not a war where some die, and some remain to live on. By the time the 7th Trumpet starts the final harvest should be complete. If it is not, then humanity will have to endure 42 more months with Satan in charge. When Satan is given full authority, that is the AoD. Any harvest left consist of those beheaded. So the harvest is all about ending this dead flesh.

The church is taken out, prior to the judgment where Jesus as Prince decides who is the sheep who receive eternal life, or the goats placed in the LOF. The same with the wheat and tares. It is the angels who remove souls and takes them to their eternal destinations.

The difference between tribulation and persecution, is that persecution is directed at the church now. Tribulation is the trouble the lost are facing directly from Jesus Christ the Prince.

The day of the Lord is the 1000 year millennium.

I do not agree!

 

[Matt5]

I know the Bible says we cannot know the day or hour of the Lord's return, but are these events suggesting the end may be near? When do Futurists believe the Lord may return?

I'm wondering if we aren't even closer given the worldwide events such as these:
Putin's evil henchmen threaten to nuke BRITAIN if we keep helping Ukraine

Israel Air Force drilled ‘massive attack on Iran’ in presence of US officer – report

The fight to contain a new locust invasion that could push millions into hunger

World War Three is far more likely than anyone is prepared to admit

COVID Is Here to Stay

China angered as US sends destroyer through Taiwan Strait

Russia is openly talking about World War 3 for the first time

ALSO - any chance Tribulation has begun (the first 3.5 years)?

I'm looking for Jesus before 2045. Look for the harvest (big wars) to begin in order to get confirmation:

Isaiah 24:1 See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it; he will ruin its face and scatter its inhabitants
Isaiah 24:6 Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left.
Isaiah 24:13 So will it be on the earth and among the nations, as when an olive tree is beaten, or as when gleanings are left after the grape harvest.
Rev 14:15 ... “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”

Matthew 13:30 ... Let both [wheat and weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Matthew 25:24 ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.' [This is about the weeds (tares.)]


Isaiah 17:1 A prophecy against Damascus: “See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.
Isaiah 17:5 It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain,

Isaiah 18:1 Woe to the land of whirring wings
Isaiah 18:4 “I will remain quiet and will look on from my dwelling place, like shimmering heat in the sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.”

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I'm looking for Jesus before 2045. Look for the harvest (big wars) to begin in order to get confirmation:

Isaiah 24:1 See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it; he will ruin its face and scatter its inhabitants
Isaiah 24:6 Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left.
Isaiah 24:13 So will it be on the earth and among the nations, as when an olive tree is beaten, or as when gleanings are left after the grape harvest.
Rev 14:15 ... “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”

Matthew 13:30 ... Let both [wheat and weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Matthew 25:24 ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.' [This is about the weeds (tares.)]


Isaiah 17:1 A prophecy against Damascus: “See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.
Isaiah 17:5 It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain,

Isaiah 18:1 Woe to the land of whirring wings
Isaiah 18:4 “I will remain quiet and will look on from my dwelling place, like shimmering heat in the sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.”

I agree on before 2045, but given Putin's continued threats of nuclear war, I'm not sure the end is that far off. i read somewhere that Putin said if it were not for his relationship with Benjamin Netayahu, Russia would have already attacked Israel. Things just seem to be accelerating so fast, I'm not sure its going to be much longer. Our bible study group has been doing an in depth review of Revelation for over a year and we are all starting to think the end is close. I just hope the pre-trib or at least pre-wrath rapture theory are correct, because the horrors described in Revelation are so far beyond anything that has ever occurred. We really had no good idea of the horrors of Revelation before we did this over one year study.

I'm also doing a seminary class on Revelation that was for free, and I plan to take Eschatology next year if we are still here by then (3 hour credit class in Systematic Theology). We started out with 4 views of Revelation that described the views, then for the last year we have been using the parallel eschatology book by Steve Gregg which is really an awesome way to get a better understanding because each set of verses in Revelation are interpreted by an expert Historicist, Preterist, Futurist, and Idealist. I highly recommend it.

Here are the free classes. There is one called the Return of Christ and one on Daniel and the one I'm doing on Revelation: Dallas Theological Seminary

 

[Matt5]

I've been following the whole Russia-Ukraine war thing very closely. In my opinion the US is in great danger right now. This is worse than the Cuban missile crisis because there is no end in sight, and neither side can back down.

Do you remember how this all started? It started on Dec. 17, 2021:

What Does the Russian Ultimatum to the West Mean? | Desk Russie

"The Russian blackmail [on Dec. 17, 2021] is explicit and is directed at both the Americans and the Europeans. If the West does not accept the Russian ultimatum, they will have to face “a military and technical alternative”, according to Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko: “The Europeans must also think about whether they want to avoid making their continent the scene of a military confrontation. They have a choice. Either they take seriously what is put on the table, or they face a military-technical alternative.”"

"In a word, Russia is demanding that NATO commit suicide, and that the United States be reduced to the role of a regional power."

Then Russia started the Ukraine war on Feb. 24, 2021. But note how this war is not really about Ukraine. It's about so much more. Ukraine is just a convenient starting place. Given that the Russian army is failing, I think it must go nuclear at some point.

Is this the end for the US? I'm kinda thinking we are not that far away - a year or two.

Thanks for the information on the free classes.

For what it's worth, I wrote up my interpretation of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Here's a short summary:

"The four horsemen of the apocalypse are four big shocks that hit the Earth during the end-times. These are labor pains, aka harvest of the tares. It began with America nuking Japan in 1945. The nuclear age began and so did the end-times. We saw the second horse at 9/11/2001 with the rise of Islam. Islam will be behind all subsequent shocks. The third horse comes during the next big war with Israel when it is forced to nuke its neighbors as in Isaiah 17. This horse is a sign that the fourth horse opens shortly - within the year. The fourth horse (pale horse) is the death of the first horse (white horse): Russia and China nuke America."