What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

[iamlamad]

The 70th week obviously involves 7 years. Revelation 11 covers the first 3.5 years, Revelation 13 covers the final 3.5 years. Combined they total 7 years. Speaking for myself then, I'm failing to see anything silly about concluding the 2W show up in the beginning of the 70th week, and not around the midpoint instead.

Many people think the two witnesses show up in the first half. The problem with that is WHERE in Revelation John first sees them. They have to imagine that the two witnesses had been testifying for 3.5 years and John did not see them, or God chose for some reason not to show them to John. The point is, the TIMING in John's narrative in chapter 11 is JUST BEFORE the midpoint.

Remember when God brought two witnesses to Abraham before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? He wanted witnesses when? Just before He brought destruction. God will need no witnesses beside the 144,000! THEY are His witnesses during the first half of the week.

Then I have yet another reason. Jesus Himself, the Head of the church spoke these words to me: "every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint of the week."

I spent weeks in chapter 11, trying to make it fit what He said. I had them in the first half, then in the second half, back and forth. Finally I understood: Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. They are NOT IN John's chronology!

We find the 5 mentions of the 3.5 years in chapters 11, 12, and 13. Therefore all of these are midpoint chapters.

You do understand, I hope, that from what Paul wrote, the man of sin will enter the new temple, go right into the most holy place, and declare HE is the god of the Jews! The God of creation. However, how could he enter the temple in Jerusalem if he is somewhere in Syria? Or somewhere else in the world? He must first GET TO JERUSALEM.

In 11:1-2 find find Gentile armies will begin to trample the city of Jerusalem for 42 months. I meditated on that and bugged God about it. This verse is showing us the man of sin entering Jerusalem with his Gentile armies - perhaps just 3.5 days before the exact midpoint when he will enter the temple.

God then sends the two witnesses to Jerusalem because the man of sin just got there. We know they arrive just 3.5 days before the exact midpoint.

Maybe I should not have said "silly." I repent. The truth is, the two witnesses show up exactly in John's chronology where He first mentions them: just before the midpoint of the week.

Revelation 11 covers the first 3.5 years Sorry, but this is just in error, WRONG. Throw that part of your theory into the trash. The first half of the week goes from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet. The first 6 trumpets take up the first half of the week. Don't RUSH John! He goes very methodically through the week. But it takes from chapter 8 to chapter 16 to get through the week.

Revelation 13 covers the final 3.5 years. Please don't make mincemeat of John's chronology! The last half of the week goes from chapter 11:15 (the 7th trumpet) to the 7th vial in chapter 16.

you must learn to recognize John's parentheses. In chapter 11, John is introduced to the two witnesses in verse 3, but then in a parenthesis John is taken down the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY. These verses are OUTSIDE John's real chronology.

John does the very same thing in chapter 13. He gets to the start of the countdown: 42 months, and then the rest of the chapter takes us down a SIDE JOURNEY in a parenthesis - down the rest of the last half with the two Beasts.

Note carefully, in 14:1 John is RIGHT BACK at the midpoint or very shortly after the midpoint.

 

[iamlamad]

So Satan has agreed that God should destroy him and his kingdom, and he should be cast into the lake of fire?

Satan KNOWS the day will come when He will be cast down. But He will fight to prevent it until it happens. In the seals, we could say he demanded his rights and god of this world to make every attempt to stop the advance of the gospel: HOLD It within the 1/4 of the earth God allowed him to work in.

Keep working on it!

 

[iamlamad]

And what makes you think they would know that? They become Christians during the great tribulation, having missed the rapture.

Bibles during the great tribulation will likely be confiscated. Plus, they are no going to be on the internet in discussion boards like this learning about eschatology.
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How can the wrath on the Lamb in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, be executed on the perpetrator's of the deaths of the first century matyrers - when those perpetrator's are all long dead?

I think after the rapture, those that turn to Christ are going to be VERY SERIOUS Christians. I think the 7 years of tribulation will be common knowledge for most of them. Take for example the millions of people in some churches today that are never taught about being born again. they are taught many things, just not how to be in the rapture.

They will certainly know that judgment has started! Yet, these at the 5th seal are asking "HOW LONG...?" In other words, they know they are on in the season of judgment yet.

Anyway, that is just one small reason why the 5th seal is church age martyrs. The main reason is where they are located in John's narrative. It all goes back to the timing of the first seal: miss that and everything else gets into error.

 

[iamlamad]

How can the wrath on the Lamb in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, be executed on the perpetrator's of the deaths of the first century matyrers - when those perpetrator's are all long dead?

Sorry, missed this question. It is not wrath ON the lamb, it is the Day of His wrath that begins at the 6th seal. You ask a very good question. WILL God judge them for murdering saints? CERTAINLY for it is written that whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap. But their judgment has been suffering in hell all this time. And it will not end, for they will finally end up in the lake of fire.

 

[iamlamad]

As to the vial judgments allegedly occurring during the 42 months. Sorry, but I'm simply not seeing it. The vial judgments involve the wrath of God. The reign of the beast, it involves the wrath of satan, and that it is meaning the GT. The Discourse has a lot to say about the GT. What I'm not seeing in the Discourse are any hints of vial judgments taking place during that period of time. I tend to think the vial judgments fit after the time of the GT, yet prior to the 2nd coming. IOW, they fit the time when the sun is darkened, etc.

And if one looks at the following in the Discourse there are two periods of time that preceed the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The first period of time meaning this----the tribulation of those days.

The second period of time meaning this----shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Luke 21 appears to make the latter a bit clearer.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The above referring to immediately after the trib of those days according to Matthew 24:29. These things apparently preceed the 2nd coming. If the vials of wrath are being poured out at the time, I for one can see Luke 21:25-26 explaining that. Look at what's going on in those verses, yet this is just prior to the 2nd coming. If the vials of wrath don't explain any of that, what does then?

David, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to separate in time, Satan's wrath and God's wrath, for they are concurrent - both happening at the same time. God's wrath begins at the Day of the Lord BEFORE the 70th week begins, and then continues on through the entire 70th week.

Satan's wrath begins when He is cast down at the midpoint of the week. His wrath through the Beast and False prophet will cause the enforcing of refusing the mark so millions will be beheaded. It is when the beheadings reaches a peak that God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. We could say that when Satan's wrath reaches a peak, God's wrath also reaches a peak.

In Revelation God's wrath begins at the 6th seal (some say 7th) and then continues on through chapters 8 - 16 where the week ends. Satan's wrath begins in chapter 12 and continues on through chapter 16 and beyond.

As to the vial judgments allegedly occurring during the 42 months. Sorry, but I'm simply not seeing it It is simple; you imagine the last half of the week in chapter 13. That is written as a parenthesis: the REAL last half will go from the 7th trumpet (chapter 11) to the 7th vial (chapter 16).

What I'm not seeing in the Discourse are any hints of vial judgments taking place during that period of time.
Jesus just gave "highlights" during His discourse. We must go to Revelation to get the details. What you may have not understood: God will use the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT. Go through the vial judgments one by one, and imagine you are part of the Beast's army, hunting down those who refuse to take the mark. I think after just the first three or four, you will not be out hunting down anyone!

The second period of time meaning this----shall the sun be darkened Remember the very words: "immediately after.... THEN" he will come. How long is "immediately" to God?

I think Daniel gives us a hint giving us a 1290 day count - some great events happening 30 days after the 70th week has ended. I think those 30 days will be the marraige and supper in heaven, THEN He will come. But the vials are before the week ends, and they are what will shorten the days of GT, meaning END them! The rest of the 42 months must be finished, but no one will be hunting down people to behead them.

If the vials of wrath don't explain any of that, what does then? For this we must form our beliefs from Revelation - which gives us a much more detailed look at those events. In Revelation the days of GT will be worst after the image and mark begin to be enforced. We don't know how long after the midpoint that will take. it could be a month or it could be a year.

Once they begin enforcing the worship of the image and taking the mark, we still don't know how long God will allow that to go on before He begins pouring out the vials of His wrath. We don't really know then how many days of the last 1260 will be days of "GT."

What we do know: the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. The days of GT then will start and the end of chapter 14 and continue on - perhaps to the 5th or 6th vial. The last of the 1260 days much be fulfilled, but they will days of darkness when not much will be happening: those in the kingdom of the Beast will be sitting in darkness gnawing their tongues for pain, wondering in great fear what God will do next.

Then the 7th vial will come, the Old Testament saints will be raised, which will cause that worst of all earthquake that will destroy the cities of the world. That will end the 70th week. But the events of chapters 17 and 18 must come to pass before Jesus returns as shown in chapter 19.

 

[Douggg]

You think "no man was found" because all have sinned.

You are leaving out the key word "worthy".

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, missed this question. It is not wrath ON the lamb, it is the Day of His wrath that begins at the 6th seal. You ask a very good question. WILL God judge them for murdering saints? CERTAINLY for it is written that whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap. But their judgment has been suffering in hell all this time. And it will not end, for they will finally end up in the lake of fire.

(wrath on the Lamb was a typo error. obviously, it should have been wrath of the Lamb. I went back corrected my post)


How can them already dead say ? ...

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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It only makes sense if them in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs. And not the historical martyrs.

 

[Douggg]

Many people think the two witnesses show up in the first half. The problem with that is WHERE in Revelation John first sees them. They have to imagine that the two witnesses had been testifying for 3.5 years and John did not see them, or God chose for some reason not to show them to John. The point is, the TIMING in John's narrative in chapter 11 is JUST BEFORE the midpoint.

Remember when God brought two witnesses to Abraham before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? He wanted witnesses when? Just before He brought destruction. God will need no witnesses beside the 144,000! THEY are His witnesses during the first half of the week.

Then I have yet another reason. Jesus Himself, the Head of the church spoke these words to me: "every time I mentioned and event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be VERY CLOSE to the exact midpoint of the week."

I spent weeks in chapter 11, trying to make it fit what He said. I had them in the first half, then in the second half, back and forth. Finally I understood: Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. They are NOT IN John's chronology!

We find the 5 mentions of the 3.5 years in chapters 11, 12, and 13. Therefore all of these are midpoint chapters.

You do understand, I hope, that from what Paul wrote, the man of sin will enter the new temple, go right into the most holy place, and declare HE is the god of the Jews! The God of creation. However, how could he enter the temple in Jerusalem if he is somewhere in Syria? Or somewhere else in the world? He must first GET TO JERUSALEM.

In 11:1-2 find find Gentile armies will begin to trample the city of Jerusalem for 42 months. I meditated on that and bugged God about it. This verse is showing us the man of sin entering Jerusalem with his Gentile armies - perhaps just 3.5 days before the exact midpoint when he will enter the temple.

God then sends the two witnesses to Jerusalem because the man of sin just got there. We know they arrive just 3.5 days before the exact midpoint.

Maybe I should not have said "silly." I repent. The truth is, the two witnesses show up exactly in John's chronology where He first mentions them: just before the midpoint of the week.

Revelation 11 covers the first 3.5 years Sorry, but this is just in error, WRONG. Throw that part of your theory into the trash. The first half of the week goes from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet. The first 6 trumpets take up the first half of the week. Don't RUSH John! He goes very methodically through the week. But it takes from chapter 8 to chapter 16 to get through the week.

Revelation 13 covers the final 3.5 years. Please don't make mincemeat of John's chronology! The last half of the week goes from chapter 11:15 (the 7th trumpet) to the 7th vial in chapter 16.

you must learn to recognize John's parentheses. In chapter 11, John is introduced to the two witnesses in verse 3, but then in a parenthesis John is taken down the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY. These verses are OUTSIDE John's real chronology.

John does the very same thing in chapter 13. He gets to the start of the countdown: 42 months, and then the rest of the chapter takes us down a SIDE JOURNEY in a parenthesis - down the rest of the last half with the two Beasts.

Note carefully, in 14:1 John is RIGHT BACK at the midpoint or very shortly after the midpoint.

The world sees their bodies dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and exchanges presents when the two witnesses are killed. It is makes no sense for that to happen at the end of the 70th week at Jesus's return, and not in the middle of the 70th week.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 

[DavidPT]

God's wrath begins at the Day of the Lord BEFORE the 70th week begins, and then continues on through the entire 70th week.

Right from the get go we would not be on the same page here. I see no reason to think the DOTL initially precedes the beginning of the 70th week. The DOTL would be at the end of the 70th week. The DOTL ultimately involves the 2nd coming. The 2nd coming can be found in 2 Peter 3, for one. And that's it's connected with the DOTL. As to that day, the text indicates it comes like a thief in the night. Why would the DOTL need to come like a thief in the night prior to the 70th week getting underway?

Satan's wrath begins when He is cast down at the midpoint of the week. His wrath through the Beast and False prophet will cause the enforcing of refusing the mark so millions will be beheaded.

Nothing to argue with here. I agree with you.

It is when the beheadings reaches a peak that God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation.

I'm not seeing the vials of wrath being why the trib is shortened. The way I reason it, it is already set in stone how long it will be, thus it is shortened in that it is not allowed to continue indefinitely. How long will it be? How long does the beast in Revelation 13 reign? There's your answer then. Once the beast's allotted time is up, then will God begin unleashing the last 7 vials of wrath upon the beast and it's followers.

In Revelation God's wrath begins at the 6th seal (some say 7th) and then continues on through chapters 8 - 16 where the week ends. Satan's wrath begins in chapter 12 and continues on through chapter 16 and beyond.

And if it is at the 6th seal, and BTW, I agree that it is, this is when the last 7 vial judgments begin. According to the Discourse, the events recorded in Revelation 6:12-14 initially take place after the trib of those days, IOW after the 42 month reign of the beast, yet just prior to the 2nd coming. So IOW, the Discourse proves the events of the 6th seal follow the time of the 42 month reign of the beast, and not already precede it instead.

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What I have underlined are referring to the same events. Matthew 24:29 places the events recorded in Revelation 6:13 as taking place after the trib of those days, IOW after the 42 month reign of the beast, yet just prior to the 2nd coming.

 

[DavidPT]

The vials take place during the 42 months of the beast's reign.

Revelatlon 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Obviously we are not looking at some of these things from the same angle. To get a better idea of the angle I am looking at some of these things from, have a look at post #189 that I just recently posted.

 

[iamlamad]

You are leaving out the key word "worthy".

We all know what John's meaning was: worthy to take the book and open the seals.

John's point was there was failure. that is why John wept much.
Do you know WHY this failure?

 

[Douggg]

We all know what John's meaning was: worthy to take the book and open the seals.

John's point was there was failure. that is why John wept much.
Do you know WHY this failure?

Because no man is worthy, because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[DavidPT]

The term "after" in its intent means at the end of.

Luke 21:25-26 corresponds to Revelation 6 the sixth seal. Which is right before Jesus returns down to earth.

It sounds like to me then, that we are on the same page here, at least in regards to this.

 

[Douggg]

Obviously we are not looking at some of these things from the same angle. To get a better idea of the angle I am looking at some of these things from, have a look at post #189 that I just recently posted.

The vials of God's wrath are poured out on the beast and his kingdom during the 42 months of God dismantling that kingdom.

Once the beast's allotted time is up, then will God begin unleashing the last 7 vials of wrath upon the beast and it's followers.

The beast's 42 months of reign time is up at the end of the 7 years when he gets ready to stand against Jesus and his army in Revelation 19:19-20 and Daniel 11:45 and Daniel 8:25.

The vials of God's wrath have to be within the 42 months while the beast' kingdom is still intact.

 

[iamlamad]

Right from the get go we would not be on the same page here. I see no reason to think the DOTL initially precedes the beginning of the 70th week. The DOTL would be at the end of the 70th week. The DOTL ultimately involves the 2nd coming. The 2nd coming can be found in 2 Peter 3, for one. And that's it's connected with the DOTL. As to that day, the text indicates it comes like a thief in the night. Why would the DOTL need to come like a thief in the night prior to the 70th week getting underway?

You have to understand, this was the very first thing God spoke to me about in His teaching me Revelation. I was reading Daniel 9:27, and when my eyes and mind got to the word "midst" God suddenly spoke. It sounded like an audible voice:

"you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." I was suddenly "in the Spirit" and my senses not working. But my spirit man asked Him "how would I find that?"

He continued: "every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years you will be very close to the exact midpoint." Almost as an afterthought, He added: "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" When He said that, I got a download of information but not words: I suddenly KNEW the reason I could find the entire week "clearly marked" was that God had marked the ENTIRE 70th Week with the same "MARKER." When I found that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint, then I knew the 7th seal would begin it and the 7th vial would end it.

From there, God taught me chapters 4 & 5 and chapter 12. Now you have a choice: you study and see of what was told me FITS the scriptures, or not. I think they do. It makes sense: if the last half of the week goes from chapter 11 to chapter 16, the the chapters before chapter 11 must be the first half of the week.

Let's leave the start of the DAY where John put, even if it is not what you "believe." John starts the DAY long long long before Jesus returns. His return is in chapter 16, and the DAY starts in chapter 6. There is OVER 7 years between.

I know, many people wish to start the week at the first seal, but that simply does not fit the scriptures. We MUST leave the first seals in their context.

Next, if we read in the Old Testament about THE DAY, we see find it is a day of destruction where God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. When we study the trumpet judgments we see it is God beginning His destruction of the earth. Again, it fits. By what is written, the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

The DOTL would be at the end of the 70th week. The DOTL ultimately involves the 2nd coming. The day of the Lord is NOT just one 24 hour day! It will encompass all of God's destruction of earth.

Why would the DOTL need to come like a thief in the night prior to the 70th week getting underway? It's very simple: Jesus is coming TWO more times: He will come FOR His church, and that coming will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. The DAY starts like a thief in the night because JESUS comes like a thief in the night.

Just three verses after the classic rapture verse, Paul mentions the DAY - as if the rapture has something to do with the Day of the Lord. The truth is, IT DOES. Paul places these as back to back events that cannot be separated: the moment the pretrib rapture ENDS the church age, TIME goes to Day of the Lord time. And God's wrath begins.

Paul then ties God's Wrath to the rapture event: while those living in Christ get raptured, those living in darkness are left behind to face "sudden destruction" and that sudden destruction is what Paul says God will make NO appointments for us. We won't be here when His wrath starts, because He will snatch us out a second before His wrath begins.

 

[DavidPT]

The vials of God's wrath are poured out on the beast and his kingdom during the 42 months of God dismantling that kingdom.

Consider this perspective then. But first, you do agree the vials of wrath lead to the 2nd coming, correct?

Assuming you agree---

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This has to fit somewhere. What then sounds more chronologically sound? They are saying peace and saftey amidst being bombarded by the vials of the wrath of God? Or----they are saying peace and safety first, then at some point after that, the vials of wrath begin getting poured out?

What then sounds more chronologically sound here as well? The vials of wrath have already been in progress, then followed by sudden destruction coming upon them? Or---sudden destruction cometh upon them because the vials of wrath begin getting poured out on them?

We have to keep in mind the following as well.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Seriously, does verse 10 sound like something that would be taking place while the vials of the wrath of God have been pouring out on them?

 

[iamlamad]

I'm not seeing the vials of wrath being why the trib is shortened. The way I reason it, it is already set in stone how long it will be, thus it is shortened in that it is not allowed to continue indefinitely. How long will it be? How long does the beast in Revelation 13 reign? There's your answer then. Once the beast's allotted time is up, then will God begin unleashing the last 7 vials of wrath upon the beast and it's followers.

Then you must find out another way God is stop the beast from murdering and so shorten those days of GT. I find nothing else written. And when I read the vials, I can easily see how they would render an army helpless!

What is set in stone is the duration of the week, and each half of the week. Please understand, the last half is going to be 1260 days, but NOT ALL of those days will be days of GT. First the False prophet must show up. John does not tell us how far into the last half that will be. Then they have to erect this image they will force people to worship. Then they have to create the mark. Once all of this is accomplished, THEN and only then can they begin to enforce all to worship the image and all to accept the mark. So we don't know how many days it will take before the days of GT begin. All we know is it will be after the midpoint.

Then we don't know when God will make it impossible to continue hunting down those that rebel and refuse the mark. All we know is, the days of murdering will not continue for the full 1260 days. The days will continue, but they will not be days of GT. They will just be days of pain, darkness and suffering.
I disagree with your take on this.

 

[Douggg]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This has to fit somewhere. What then sounds more chronologically sound? They are saying peace and saftey amidst being bombarded by the vials of the wrath of God? Or----they are saying peace and safety first, then at some point after that, the vials of wrath begin getting poured out?

The Day of the Lord is eternal.

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist in the middle part of the 7 years goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

Prior to then, during most of the first portion of the 7 years, Israel and the world is saying "peace and safety" because they will think they have entered the messianic age.

In the middle part of the week, the sudden like a thief in the night, Antichrist's action shatters that illusion. The Day of Lord begins with his act.

And the first portion of the eternal Day of the Lord is the great tribulation.

After Jesus returns, the Day of the Lord continues into and through the millennium time of no war and peace on earth, but at the very end is one last rebellion by Satan. Which is followed by the destruction of this present heaven and earth - which Peter referred to.

Following the great white throne judgment, the Day of the Lord continues and lasts forever.

The Day of the Lord begins - but never ends. It is eternal.

 

[iamlamad]

And if it is at the 6th seal, and BTW, I agree that it is, this is when the last 7 vial judgments begin. According to the Discourse, the events recorded in Revelation 6:12-14 initially take place after the trib of those days, IOW after the 42 month reign of the beast, yet just prior to the 2nd coming. So IOW, the Discourse proves the events of the 6th seal follow the time of the 42 month reign of the beast, and not already precede it instead..

No, you have it wrong: NO vial will come until all 7 trumpets have sounded and God gets His planet back. After the seals are opened then the BOOK is opened and it is the book that contains the 70th week. And the book starts with the trumpet judgments. If your theory forces you to rearrange Revelation to fit, then it is a bogus theory and will be proven wrong.

6:12-14 initially take place after the trib of those days, This is the biggest MYTH you have written so far. have you been listening to prewrath people? That theory is the worst of all - in error from start to finish! No wonder we disagree so much! Pay close attention: JOHN gets to the START of the days of GT at the end of chapter 14, and the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven. Prewath tries to rewrite revelation and have the days of GT in the SEALS, which is church age. Sorry, but prewrath forces a complete rewrite of Revelation to fit. That theory will be proven very wrong.

Do you know how this theory started? Van Kampen called Rosenthal and said, "I FOUND IT! He had been looking for a clue, and he was sure he had found it. What was that clue? He read that the sun and moon would be darkened AFTER the days of GT, (Matthew 24) but read that the sun would turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

What was his great mistake? He thought the signs for the Day of the Lord are the same exact signs for the coming of Christ! The truth is, these two signs are for different purposes and will be seen over 7 years apart!

The sign of a blood red moon is the sign for the start of the DAY, and it is shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal - that comes before the 7th that starts the Week. A blood red moon is SEEN else how would anyone know it is red?

Then, 7 years later, after chapters 8 through 16 have taken place, and the 70th week has ended (which INCLUDE the days of GT) then the cosmic signs will be seen again, but this time DIFFERENT: it will be TOTAL DARKNESS when Jesus comes: that is a darkened sun and moon. Neither is visible. Even the stars are are not seen. This sign is written in Matthew 24 and in Joel chapter 3.

Always remember, two different signs for two different events hat will come at two different times - over 7 years apart.

Prewrath is NOT TRUTH.

 

[DavidPT]

Then you must find out another way God is stop the beast from murdering and so shorten those days of GT. I find nothing else written. And when I read the vials, I can easily see how they would render an army helpless!

What is set in stone is the duration of the week, and each half of the week. Please understand, the last half is going to be 1260 days, but NOT ALL of those days will be days of GT. First the False prophet must show up. John does not tell us how far into the last half that will be. Then they have to erect this image they will force people to worship. Then they have to create the mark. Once all of this is accomplished, THEN and only then can they begin to enforce all to worship the image and all to accept the mark. So we don't know how many days it will take before the days of GT begin. All we know is it will be after the midpoint.

Then we don't know when God will make it impossible to continue hunting down those that rebel and refuse the mark. All we know is, the days of murdering will not continue for the full 1260 days. The days will continue, but they will not be days of GT. They will just be days of pain, darkness and suffering.
I disagree with your take on this.

I tend to agree with you to a degree. You once again make some good points.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


So what does one do with this verse then? Does or does it not mean what it says? What does it say? and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Doesn't that indicate the beast continues 42 months, regardless? It doesn't say it continues 40 months, or 46 months, etc, right?


What then ends it's reign?

I would think the following for one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Notice that the 7th trumpet sounds first. Which then results in the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Which then leads to the time of wrath. IOW, the 7 last vials of wrath.

Why? Because God has once again gained control of the planet. The first thing on the agenda appears to be found in verse 18---And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come----and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.