What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

[iamlamad]

No, it does not. John was an old man when he heard the voice come up hither, from Jesus in heaven, on the throne.

You are free to imagine anything. The very first words Jesus spoke to me about this passage of scripture (chapters 4 & 5) is that they show TIMING. Next, since I could not find "timing," He said "they show the MOVEMENT of TIME." It seems in your argument neither of these is true.

 

[DavidPT]

Note: God "marked" the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal begins the week and the 7th vial ends it.

This seems to indicate my interpretation still works then. The 70th week also involves the first 6 seals, with the 6th seal being when the 7th vial ends it. Kind of hard to put in words as to what I'm getting at here. But not that it is complicated, but that presently I can't find a way to express in writing what I seem to be understanding here, without it being too tedious for me to try and type out. BTW, I don't disagree with everything you said in this post. You made a lot of good points I found myself being somewhat on the same page with you about. Or at least I think I was. I don't agree with you about any Pretrib rapture though.

 

[DavidPT]

Dave: it is very simple: the 6000 year lease on earth given to Adam runs out at the midpoint of the 70th week.
At that same time, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare He is the God of the Jews. At that same time, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, so all in heaven will know, the abomination has happened and says of great tribulation are soon to follow.

If you notice, in 12:6 we see the fleeing because they have just seen the abomination. 12:6 is perhaps a few seconds after the abomination event and the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 11:1-2 is real time, perhaps just days before the man of sin will enter the temple. It is the man of sin entering Jerusalem. He will arrive with Gentile armies who will trample the city for 42 months.

Next, (11:3) and exactly 3.5 days before the midpoint, the two witnesses show up. They begin their testimony (1260 days) which will take them to just 3.5 days before the end of the week. they are killed and lay dead those 3.5 days and are resurrected with the rest of the Old Testament saints "on the last day," which will be at the 7th vial.

Then, 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis.

Next, when these 3.5 days are done, the man of sin will enter the temple, and the 7th trumpet will sound, marking the midpoint of the week.

Note: If people miss that 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis, they come up with silly ideas, like the two witnesses are in the first half of the week. No, almost all of their testimony will be in the last half.

How can Christ begin reigning forever and ever, at the midpoint of the 70th week

The kingdoms of the world are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus. HE now becomes the Prince and God of planet earth. Satan is then cast down. Jesus, as the God of this earth, has both the power and the authority to now give 42 months of authority to the Beast, which He will do.

The 70th week obviously involves 7 years. Revelation 11 covers the first 3.5 years, Revelation 13 covers the final 3.5 years. Combined they total 7 years. Speaking for myself then, I'm failing to see anything silly about concluding the 2W show up in the beginning of the 70th week, and not around the midpoint instead.

 

[iamlamad]

This seems to indicate my interpretation still works then. The 70th week also involves the first 6 seals, with the 6th seal being when the 7th vial ends it. Kind of hard to put in words as to what I'm getting at here. But not that it is complicated, but that presently I can't find a way to express in writing what I seem to be understanding here, without it being too tedious for me to try and type out. BTW, I don't disagree with everything you said in this post. You made a lot of good points I found myself being somewhat on the same page with you about. Or at least I think I was. I don't agree with you about any Pretrib rapture though.

David, the seals do ONE JOB: they seal the book so it could not be opened until or unless the Redeemer of mankind was successful and rose from the dead - prevailing over death. However, since the book is a legal document of heaven, it would be unlawful for just anyone (Say Father God or an angel) to open the seals. And it would also be unlawful for either God or Satan to do what is written on a seal UNTIL that seal was opened by the Redeemer.

God wanted to get to the trumpets, which are written INSIDE the book, but to do that would require all 7 seals to be opened first. Remember, it is at the 7th trumpet when Satan is cast down and God gets His planet back.

Satan has been the god of this planet since Adam! It is certainly 1st priority to God to end Satan's reign. But to do that, Jesus had to raise from the dead, get the book and begin opening the seals.

As each seal is opened, then what is written can LEGALLY be accomplished. God wanted to send out 120 believers to spread the gospel. Remember He said "Go therefore...?" But that would have been ILLEGAL until the first seal was opened, 32 AD. THEN the church could be sent out. The first seal is the church with the gospel.

Next, God had to get the next 3 seals opened: they gave the devil legal rights to try and stop the church with WAR, FAMINE, PESTILENCE (DEATH).

For 2000 years the church has been spreading the gospel and the devil has been trying to prevent the gospel from getting into new places.

Of course, since Satan is god of this world, and hates Christians, he has caused many martyrs. So Jesus had to open the 5th seal, for Stephen and James. And perhaps those that Saul put to death. The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait for the very last martyr killed as they were - ah, John - HOW were they killed? John is not talking of the manner of death: they were killed as church age martyrs so they must wait for judgment until the FINAL church age martyr.

The fifth seal is really a HINT to the pretrib rapture: they really must wait for the rapture that will end the church age so the final martyr will come in - and then judgment will begin. Paul said the same thing: that the DAY of the Lord would follow hard after the rapture. We see the day of His wrath (Day of the Lord) starting at the 6th seal - the very next thing after the 5th.

The church has been waiting that at the 5th seal as almost daily more are added to the martyrs of the church age. Soon Jesus will come, the church will be caught up, and the Day of the Lord will come SUDDENLY.

It will probably then be only ten days and Jesus will open the 7th seal which will officially start the 70th week It will go to the 7th vial that ends the week.

Notice that after each seal is opened and those events written to happen begin, that seal is done forever. It is forgotten as a seal. So when the 7th is opened, all seals pale into insignificance because now the BOOK is opened that contains the 70th week of Daniel. The trumpet judgments come first in the book.

 

[iamlamad]

The 70th week obviously involves 7 years. Revelation 11 covers the first 3.5 years, Revelation 13 covers the final 3.5 years. Combined they total 7 years. Speaking for myself then, I'm failing to see anything silly about concluding the 2W show up in the beginning of the 70th week, and not around the midpoint instead.

You simply don't have it right. The confirming of the covenant will most likely be done in secret: no one will know when the week starts. Those that know the trumpets start the week will soon know after they see the first trumpet judgments.

John did not see the start of the week so wrote nothing about it. God told me that He "marked" the 70th week with 7's. I believed Him - still do. It fits. Man many not know when the week starts but heaven surely will know and Jesus will begin it with the 7th seal opened, to begin the trumpet judgments.

The first half of the week then will go from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet; chapter 8 to chapter 11 to the 7th trumpet sounding.

John was not shown the first half with numbers; Only the second half. However, since John shows us two 1260 day periods outlining the second half of the week, we can be very sure it will be 1260 days from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet.

You are simply mistaken in your theory. EVERTHING in chapter 11 is second half except the 42 months of trampling and 1260 days of testifying will START a few days before the midpoint. So you would be 99% wrong; 99% of the trampling and testifying will be in the second half of the week.

 

[Douggg]

What about the 7th trumpet then? Wouldn't that place the 7th trumpet at the midpoint of the 70th week, rather than at the end of the 70th week instead?

Yes. On day 1263.5 of the 70th week.

Why would the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, at the midpoint of the 70th week, rather than at the end of it instead? How can Christ begin reigning forever and ever, at the midpoint of the 70th week, when it is the beast that will begin reigning at the midpoint, for 42 months in this case?

It means that God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom, which has had sway over the nations. Which that process takes the time, times, half times in Revelation 12.

The first step in dismantling Satan's kingdom is to cast it down to earth, by the war in heaven (the second heaven) in Revelation 12:7-9.

The beast and his kingdom will feel the trumpet and vial judgments
during the 42 months, as his kingdom and rule is dismantled as well.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes. On day 1263.5 of the 70th week.

It means that God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom, which has had sway over the nations. Which that process takes the time, times, half times in Revelation 12.

The first step in dismantling Satan's kingdom is to cast it down to earth, by the war in heaven (the second heaven) in Revelation 12:7-9.

The beast and his kingdom will feel the trumpet and vial judgments
during the 42 months, as his kingdom and rule is dismantled as well.

As to the vial judgments allegedly occurring during the 42 months. Sorry, but I'm simply not seeing it. The vial judgments involve the wrath of God. The reign of the beast, it involves the wrath of satan, and that it is meaning the GT. The Discourse has a lot to say about the GT. What I'm not seeing in the Discourse are any hints of vial judgments taking place during that period of time. I tend to think the vial judgments fit after the time of the GT, yet prior to the 2nd coming. IOW, they fit the time when the sun is darkened, etc.

And if one looks at the following in the Discourse there are two periods of time that preceed the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The first period of time meaning this----the tribulation of those days.

The second period of time meaning this----shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Luke 21 appears to make the latter a bit clearer.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The above referring to immediately after the trib of those days according to Matthew 24:29. These things apparently preceed the 2nd coming. If the vials of wrath are being poured out at the time, I for one can see Luke 21:25-26 explaining that. Look at what's going on in those verses, yet this is just prior to the 2nd coming. If the vials of wrath don't explain any of that, what does then?

 

[Douggg]

Agreed, John did not write the word "finally," but then, show us a verse before that in chapter 4 or 5, where He WAS seen.

Revelation 4:8-11. Jesus is on the throne and they are worshipping Him, and casting their crowns before the throne, and praising him saying He is worthy.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Douggg]

. The Discourse has a lot to say about the GT. What I'm not seeing in the Discourse are any hints of vial judgments taking place during that period of time.

The vials take place during the 42 months of the beast's reign.

Revelatlon 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

The above referring to immediately after the trib of those days according to Matthew 24:29. These things apparently preceed the 2nd coming. If the vials of wrath are being poured out at the time, I for one can see Luke 21:25-26 explaining that. Look at what's going on in those verses, yet this is just prior to the 2nd coming. If the vials of wrath don't explain any of that, what does then?

The term "after" in its intent means at the end of.

Luke 21:25-26 corresponds to Revelation 6 the sixth seal. Which is right before Jesus returns down to earth.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus was right there in heaven the whole time in Revelation 4, 5, 6. Then you must explain away all dozen mentions of Jesus at the right hand of the Father. You must explain away WHY "no man was found."

I have already explained the term "found". It does not mean a search was launched to search heaven and earth. It means, like in a court, a person "found" guilty. No man was "found" worthy, because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

You are making claims that Jesus in Revelation 5 had just ascended to heaven - so where in the rest of Revelation to find any mention of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, as you are making that as an argument as well?

 

[iamlamad]

Luke 21:25-26 corresponds to Revelation 6 the sixth seal. Which is right before Jesus returns down to earth.

You are mistaken (as usual). Note carefully Jesus own words in Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Notice Joel 3:
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem;

In Revelation, these cosmic signs are not shown because John did not see them - God chose for John not to see them. If John had seen them and written of them, they would be found after the 7th vial ends the week or just before Jesus return to earth in chapter 19. Jesus said "immediately after" the "tribulation..."

"Tribulation" is still going on in chapter 16.

Unless or until you come to the place you realize and understand that these cosmic signs will be shown TWICE, once before the week begins as a sign of the Day of the Lord, and then again after the days of tribulation have ended, 7 plus years later, as the sign of His coming, you will always be in error.

The book of Joel shows BOTH signs.

Unless or until you understand these two different signs are DIFFERENT - you will be in error. If the moon turned red but was invisible, how could it possibly be a sign of a blood red moon? Common sense tells us this moon is meant to be seen. On the other hand, if people are looking for the sun and moon, and neither can be seen, that too is a sign: total darkness! These are two different signs for two different purposes.

unless or until you come to understand that YOU CAN'T MOVE SEALS - as in thinking the 6th seal can be just before the Rev. 19 coming, you will always be in error.

Get this straight once and for all time: the seals' purpose is to seal the book so no one unauthorized can open it. Once a seal is opened, its purpose is finished and it is forgotten. (However, the event that a seal instigates may be ongoing, such as the church with the gospel.)

John marches us right through the seals one by one TO GET THE BOOK OPENED. That happens in 8:1. John does not have to tells us: "now the book is opened." We know the book is opened as soon as all 7 seals are opened.

The 70th week is what is INSIDE the book. In other words, if God can't find someone worthy to open the seals, He can bring NO 70th week.

Therefore, it is absolutely impossible (in fact silly) to make a suggestion or comment that the 6th seal is just before His coming to Armageddon.

 

[Douggg]

by the time Jesus comes, the beheaded will have already been resurrected and enjoyed their time with Jesus at the marriage and supper.

You are taking the 5th seal as being spread across 2000 years, but not referring to them martyred during the great tribulation.

You believe in a pre-trib (pre-70th week) rapture of the living/resurrection of the dead.

So where do those resurrected after Jesus returns at the start of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6, come from?

The answer is.... them martyred during the great tribulation are the ones in the fifth seal. And Jesus takes vengeance up their deaths to them who had them killed... which the perpetrators are living at that time.

Differently, them martyred during the past two thousand years, the perpetrators are in the grave. So how is the wrath of the Lamb in the sixth seal have any affect on them already dead?

 

[iamlamad]

I have already explained the term "found". It does not mean a search was launched to search heaven and earth. It means, like in a court, a person "found" guilty. No man was "found" worthy, because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

You are making claims that Jesus in Revelation 5 had just ascended to heaven - so where in the rest of Revelation to find any mention of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, as you are making that as an argument as well?

You think "no man was found" because all have sinned. Yet, later JESUS was found, which makes your theory bogus. if that were the reason then no man EVER would be found. Yet, Jesus was found. The reason "no man was found in the first verse is simply because of TIME. Jesus was still under the earth. It seems you are blind to TIME here.

I can find over a dozen verses that tell us Jesus ascended to sit at the Father's right hand. A verse does not have to be in Rev. to be pertinent to our discussion.

 

[Douggg]

Get this straight once and for all time: the seals' purpose is to seal the book so no one unauthorized can open it. Once a seal is opened, its purpose is finished and it is forgotten. (However, the event that a seal instigates may be ongoing, such as the church with the gospel.)

God, all powerful, omnipotent, needs security to keep someone "unauthorized" to take it from His hand and open the book?

 

[iamlamad]

You are taking the 5th seal as being spread across 2000 years, but not referring to them martyred during the great tribulation.

You believe in a pre-trib (pre-70th week) rapture of the living/resurrection of the dead.

So where do those resurrected after Jesus returns at the start of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6, come from?

The answer is.... them martyred during the great tribulation are the ones in the fifth seal. And Jesus takes vengeance up their deaths to them who had them killed... which the perpetrators are living at that time.

Them martyred during the past two thousand years, the perpetrators are in the grave. So how is the wrath of the Lamb in the sixth seal have any affect on them already dead?

It is very simple, martyrs of the 70th week are beheaded and John shows them to us in chapter 15. I know you struggle with TIME but chapter 15 is around 7 years after the last seal is opened.

Your problem starts because you JUMP THE GUN at the first seal. In the plan of God that first seal is the church sent out with the gospel. That means 32 AD. I guess you want to skip over the church age as if it did not happen. What would John's FIRST READERS think about the 5th seal?

What is written about those martyrs would make no sense for 70th week martyrs. A 70th week martyr would KNOW they have only the rest of 7 years to wait, and Jesus will return. But Stephen, one of the first martyrs, had no idea how long the church age would go. Trust me on this one: the 5th seal is church age. This is proven because the very next event is the START (beginning) of judgment as in the Day of the Lord.

Yes, of course I believe in pretrib rapture - because God believes in it.

where do those resurrected after Jesus returns at the start of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6, come from? If you include verses 4-6 you are including the 1000 years. Let's leave the resurrection AFTER the thousand years out. John wrote, "I saw thrones and they sat on them..." These came from the resurrection and catching up of the church, which happened pretrib, PLUS the resurrection of all the Old Testament saints, which will happen at the 7th vial that ends the week ("on the last day").

John's next group is the beheaded: "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded" They were resurrected with the Old Tesament saints at the 7th vial.

Therefore there is NO ONE in that group that get resurrected AFTER Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

You think "no man was found" because all have sinned. Yet, later JESUS was found, which makes your theory bogus.

No man is like Jesus. All men, of Adam's seed have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Jesus is the Lord of Heaven who entered this world and became the second Adam.

1Corintihians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

God, all powerful, omnipotent, needs security to keep someone "unauthorized" to take it from His hand and open the book?

Without much doubt, this book with seven seals was an argreement between God and Satan. I see Satan's hand in demanding his rights as god of this world that he be allowed to stop the gospel - if he could. So God gets to start the church and send them out - but Satan, as the god of this world, gets to start wars, famines, pestilences - to stop the gospel from spreading. If he could prevent the gospel from covering the world, he could make God out to be a liar - ALWAYS his goal.

It is SATAN that demanded no one unauthorized can open the seals. Remember, once the book gets opened, it is then the countdown for him, Satan, the devil, to lose his place as the god of this world and be cast down. I am convinced Satan was convinced, NO ONE EVER would or could escape out of his hell! He was sure one one ever would be found worthy to open those seals. Of course we know someone WAS found worthy! Someone did rise from the dead and then took captivity captive and emptied "paradise."

 

[iamlamad]

No man is like Jesus. All men, of Adam's seed have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Jesus is the Lord of Heaven who entered this world and became the second Adam.

1Corintihians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

I agree: but your statement "no man was found" because all sin does not answer the real question: this was 95 AD and Jesus had risen 60 year previous. You have never really come to grips with why no man was found. We know Jesus lived without sin. So WHY was He not found?

I know why: it is TIMING

 

[Douggg]

What is written about those martyrs would make no sense for 70th week martyrs. A 70th week martyr would KNOW they have only the rest of 7 years to wait, and Jesus will return

And what makes you think they would know that? They become Christians during the great tribulation, having missed the rapture.

Bibles during the great tribulation will likely be confiscated. Plus, they are no going to be on the internet in discussion boards like this learning about eschatology.
____________________________________________________

How can the wrath of the Lamb in Revelation 6, the sixth seal, be executed on the perpetrator's of the deaths of the first century matyrers - when those perpetrator's are all long dead?

 

[Douggg]

Without much doubt, this book with seven seals was an argreement between God and Satan.

So Satan has agreed that God should destroy him and his kingdom, and he should be cast into the lake of fire?