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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Lords Man

    Lords Man Active Member

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    I think that the intent of God was twofold.

    First, He desires that we have strong faith. We can have it when we see the sovereign God on His throne holding all power over all creation. No matter what happens in this world (the messages of the seals, trumpets and vials) God is greatest and He holds the reigns. Nothing can separate us from His love if we are truly His (Romans 8:31-39).

    Second, the entire point of the book of Revelation is CHRIST. The book is Christ-centric first and foremost. We are to look for, and see Him, in everything that is written. He is portrayed as Lord and Savior in the entire message. If we are truly saved we find our hope and strength only in Him.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    "Jerusalem was trampled by both the Jewish Rebels and Romans for 42 months..........." I would think if this was God's intent in fulfilling scripture that SOMEONE in the New Testament would have written this. Since it is not written in scripture, I take it with a grain of salt. It probably is NOT fulfillment of the 42 months in Revelation.

    The REAL fulfillment - the intended fulfillment by our Lord - is that the man of sin will enter the temple, as Paul has show us. But before he can enter the temple in Jerusalem, he must first ARRIVE In Jerusalem - and that is shown to us in 11:1-2. Because HE shows up in Jerusalem them, God will send His two witnesses then, as shown in 11:3. They show up just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and declare HE is the God of the Jews.

    In other words, what we read in Revelation is for the most part FUTURE.
     
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Please keep reading as more people post.
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Who's back did Moses' see on Mt Sinai?

    What I am trying to impress upon you, is that God came forth from Himself, which metaphorically could be termed the Son of God, before anything was created, into the realm which creation would begin.

    Coming forth from Himself; that is, from the Father, He became the Lord of heaven, God perceptible. Which the Lord of Heaven is who's back Moses saw.

    2000 years ago, when the Lord of Heaven entered the world, He added to His being God, and became Jesus, the son of Mary, the Son of Man.

    God in His existence apart from creation is the Father, and the throne is the point between God beyond comprehension, and God perceptible.

    About the only way to describe it would be - on one side, in front of the throne is creation. Behind the throne, in that realm is God beyond comprehension, and only He exists.
     
  5. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    I'm having a hard time following your logic.

    You are saying you agree it was Jesus in heaven beyond the open door telling John to come up. But in the next verse when John is where Jesus called him to, all of a sudden Jesus is not there?

    It reminds me of those popular videos going around these days where the dog's owners hold up a blanket in a doorway, get the dog's attention, and then duck to the side as they drop the blanket, baffling the dog.

    Are you thinking that's what Jesus did to John? He pulled a trick on John, disappearing somewhere to baffle him? Sort of like playing "catch me if you can" or hide and seek?

    That's an interesting theory. But, I don't think so. :)
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Do you and/or other view Luke 21:24 as yet future?
    From what I have read, many Bible scholars view Luke 21 as being fulfilled in the 1st century [as do I]

    Luke 21:24
    “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
    And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

    Revelation 11:

    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961> forty two months.

    Revelation 13:10
    If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
    If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
    Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints
    =================================
    Please view my "sword/captivity" thread.........

    Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

    Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?

    1. Yes
      3 vote(s)
      27.3%
    2. No
      6 vote(s)
      54.5%
    3. Maybe
      0 vote(s)
      0.0%
    4. I am not sure but am willing to learn
      1 vote(s)
      9.1%
    5. Does it matter?
      0 vote(s)
      0.0%
    6. Other
      1 vote(s)
      9.1%
     
  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    • Matthew 16:27: “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
    • Matthew 25:31: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:….”
    • Mark 8:38: “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
     
  8. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    The trinity is in play in chapter 4 as how can God the father also be referred to as the one to come? We see in Col 1 a statement
    2 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Now we see the Father conveys us to the son and the son is the image of the invisible God and the son is also the one who created all things. So in Rev 4 when they sing this “You are worthy, O Lord,
    To receive glory and honor and power;
    For You created all things,
    And by Your will they exist[fn] and were created.” who is the creator they are talking about? We see the son and the Father and the holy spirit are one God and some passages are telling of this unity.
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You seem to have funny ideas. He did not "become" Lord of heaven, He has always been the Lord of heaven. He BECAME flesh and dwelt among man.

    can anyone SEE a mind? Can anyone see emotions? Can anyone SEE a will? Can anyone SEE memories? These are the aspects of God that belong to the Father: He is the WILL of the Godhead. Has anyone EVER seen the throne in heaven EMPTY - no one on it? I think not. It seems God the Father, the first person of the trinity is always seem on His throne.

    On the other hand, people can SEE bodies. God has a body and Moses SAW the back side. Abraham saw Him. Looking into the fiery furnace, Neb' saw Him. But then He came to be born of a virgin and many saw him, over the period of 32 or so years. Anyone can see a physical body.

    A big question: what does your post have to do with Rev. 4 & 5?
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is OK, Brian, but I don't think it is what God was trying to show us in chapters 4 & 5.

    Question: can you see TIMING anywhere in these chapters?
    How about the movement of time?
     
  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I hope you know by now, most lay students of the bible almost always disagree with "scholars!"
    I personally believe Luke was writing about the very same discourse that Matthew and Mark wrote about. It is just his version of the discourse.

    In Matthew's version, Jesus does not get to the future until verse 14 or 15 when He mentioned "the end" or the abomination. What comes before is church age events.

    Luke 21:24
    “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]

    This is really not the thrust of Rev. 13:10. It is about reaping what one sows. IF someone were to lead others captive, then THEY would in turn be led away captive. when people will be led away captive would be after the 6th vial when the nations of the world are caused to come up to Israel - we could guess they are told it is to wipe Israel off the map for good. It is THEN that Israel will be attacked and at least in part overcome. It is also when Jesus returns to rescue them.

    Most people consider the temple to be measured as the NEW (not yet built) temple in Jerusalem.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Can you tell the difference between reality and a vision? The moment John was called up (reality) He began to see a VISION. this can be proven by what He saw and heard: but it was a vision out of John's past:

    A throne room where Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father.
    A throne room with the Holy Spirit present (Jesus said He would send Him down)
    A search for one worthy to open the book that ended in failure.

    There is only one scenario that in my mind fits what John saw:
    It was a vision of the past: He was looking into the throne room before Jesus rose from the dead. But perhaps JUST before. In chapter 5 time passes on and Jesus DID rise from the dead, to be immediately found worthy.

    Then John saw Jesus enter the throne room, having just ascended and then sent the Holy Spirit down.

    In these two chapters then, I see:
    TIME. TIMING. The MOVEMENT of TIME. I am convinced that is what God wants us to see. It is to set the context of the first seal - the timing of the opening of that first seal, if you please.

    A throne room where Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father. Could be any time during the 32 years He was on earth.
    A throne room with the Holy Spirit present (Jesus said He would send Him down) Could be any time before Christ ascended and sent Him down.
    A search for one worthy to open the book that ended in failure. Could be any time before Christ rose from the dead.
     
  13. Calvin_1985

    Calvin_1985 Active Member

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    Revelation is the Spiritual History of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom. It's the Spiritual History of the world. The beginning chapters discussing the Book of 7 seals would be the span of History. Remember.. As it is in Heaven so it is on Earth.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Heaven did not always exist. It had to be created.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I viewed 1st century Jerusalem and Temple in Revelation the 1st time I read the Bible thru in 2003.

    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    "BEHOLD! YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT TO YE DESOLATE/A WILDERNESS!"

    Matthew 23
    35 - “that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
    37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
    38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>

    Luke 13:
    34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
    35 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>,

    Revelation 18:19
    And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the City, the great, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
    that to one hour She was desolated<2049>
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Because you need to understand that the throne of God is not like a medieval throne, with a King and his queen sitting beside him clearly visible, and courtroom.
     
  17. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    That actually helps a lot to aid my understanding why you believe your "timing" theory.

    When Jesus commanded John to "come up hither" to witness things that will be occurring in the future John obeyed by entering through the open door in his spirit. Nowhere does Scripture say he fell into a trance or had visions after arriving there. He was literally an eye witness and a participant in real time to future events in heaven and on the earth as they unfolded in God-time.

    There are many, many instances where John said he saw, looked, beheld, heard, etc.

    There are many instances where elders and angels interacted with John and John interacted back:

    "And one of the elders saith unto me ..,"
    "... one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. ..."
    "I heard the second beast say, Come and see,"
    "I heard the third beast say, Come and see,"
    "I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see."

    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

    Those were from just Chapters 5-7. There are others throughout the text. The elders and the angels obviously could see John present in his spirit and interact with him.

    There are instances of John:

    • eating a book that made his stomach bitter
    • measuring the temple
    • standing on the sand of the sea
    • being carried away into the wilderness
    • falling at his feet to mistakenly worship an angel​

    It is abundantly clear that John was present to witness and even participate in the events from the beginning to the end of Revelation.

    It's no coincidence that failure by some to understand that John was an eye-witness and a participant in Revelation as opposed to just having a vision has led to many misunderstandings throughout the book.
     
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  18. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

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    At the time of writing, which I agree is around 95 AD, in heaven, it was the year ... Wait, just kidding. Heaven is outside of the physical dimension called time. Revelation tells us it reveals past, present and future events on earth. The Letters to the Seven churches contained the present (around 95 AD). But Revelation is not in chronological order, it goes back and forth - it doesn't make sense if you take it in a linear way.
    GOD shows us different vantage points, overlapping events, to get a full perspective. It is like a transparent, five-dimensional sphere of events. You must turn the sphere and look at it at different locations.
    The Scroll with seals is like a written play. The trumpet and bowl events fall within this scroll - they have to. You see a climax in the seventh seal that seems to parallel what comes at the seventh bowl. Jack Haford wrote an interesting book, "Equake", where he explains that the scroll is the orders and the trumpets and bowls are the actions. So things don't start taking place until the trumpets sound. The play was written, but the stage is still being set.
    Revelation is the unveiling of Christ. In chapter one, John sees the Alpha and Omega in His glory. Chapters 2 & 3 addresses the churches, a message for the present time but also these churches represent Church types throughout the Church Age, so a message for us as well.
    Chapter 4, more unveiling of our Lord, Creator, which Col. 1:16, 17 reveals as Christ. The 24 elders have "crowns". So who received these crowns and when? Again, it is outside our time so it is heaven where everything is, but not yet on earth. My Pastor used to use the phrase, "The realm of the already _ but not yet." In heaven, it's a done deal, so these elders must have aleady received rewards > post rapture. They could be twelve patriarchs, like Moses, and Elijah from the OT and twelve Apostles.

    Okay, now pay attention. Rev. 5:3 jumps back to the past, when no man in heaven or on earth was able to open the scroll. This is before the death of Christ. Verse 5, all of a sudden Jesus appears as if He just ascended after being the sacrificial lamb. See how it goes back and forth.
    Another example of different vantage points in the same time frame are chapters 7 and 14, both describing the 144k.
    Also in that book Equake, the worldwide earthquake which happens is described in two places, Rev. 6:12 & 16:18 - same event.
    That is why there are so many views and so much confusion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  19. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    It was written for whom it was written.

    If you cannot see things like seals because God does not show them to you, then it's just stabbing in the dark for the bullseye.
     
  20. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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