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Featured What was God's intent in Rev. chapters 4 & 5?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    John did NOT "jumble things around." He wrote it exactly in the order that he SAW and HEARD.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    6th seal - rapture - Agreed.
    7th seal - time of silence - as the official start of the 70th week of Daniel.
     
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    "The 24 elders are what Paul referred to as -the elect angels - that we are charged before." Can you PROVE this by scripture? Or is this just more human reasoning?

    "He will be seen seated at the right hand of God" Stephen SAW Him there (standing) nearly 2000 years ago. He ascended TO BE at the right hand of the Father.

    This is what makes chapter 4 so interesting: John did NOT see Him there.
     
  4. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Col 1
    9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    This passage is sort of played out in rev 4 and 5. We see those who have been redeemed by Jesus praising Him. We see that the purpose of creation is for the Son to take the place of preeminence. This is over every power and principality. The seals that Jesus took and opened are the victory over sin and death and it all goes back to Genesis where the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. These seals are the beginning of the end and at the end the serpent's head or authority. Then Jesus when He comes brings this authority and preeminence as He rules the nations and His kingdom covers the earth and has no end. At the end of the 1000 years this kingdom does not end it just moves to new Jeruslaem.
     
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    This is good, but it does not answer my post. Thanks for trying.
     
  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Brian, if you look hard - very hard - you cannot see the Son in chapter 4. He only shows up in chapter 5. Many people imagine He is the one on the throne. No, He ascended to be at the right hand of the power on the throne: Father God.

    How would YOU tell the story? God wanted to show John the book - but He chose to show John a time while the book was still in the hand of the Father - before Jesus ascended. Can you not see this?
     
  8. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Most scholars agree that the seven-sealed scroll represents the title deed to the earth purchased by Jesus and paid for by his death on the cross.

    It exists in heaven and is being held in the right hand of God, awaiting the events of Rev. 5.

    In your "timeline" theory, how could the title deed exist -- signed, sealed and delivered -- if the events of Christ's passion had not already occurred?

    I answer your ad on Craig's list and come to your house to buy your car. You are holding the pink slip. I say, "Fine, sell me your car." You tell me, "Sorry, I haven't purchased it yet." I say, "But you are holding the pink slip." You say, "Well, that hasn't happened yet. We need to go back into the past and wait for it to happen." I say, "Then why did you put the ad in Craig's list?" You say, "It's a timeline thing that nobody else understands, but I do."

    LOL. Makes my brain hurt.
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Have you never told a story of the past? It is a simple concept.
     
  10. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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  11. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You are too funny! It is not that difficult! The earth lease was most likely a document created in heaven after Adam fell. It was sealed up with seven seals. It was and is a LEGAL document created in the throne room of heaven. Apparently written on the outside was WHO would be worthy to open the seals. It is common sense that God the Father could not open the seals. The book with 7 seals HAD TO WAIT for the Redeemer. ONLY the Redeemer could be worthy to open the seals. Therefore it would be illegal for God the Father to begin the church (seal 1) before that seal was officially opened by the Redeemer.

    The goal is to get the book opened so that the Trumpet judgments could begin, so that FINALLY the 7th trumpet could sound that would END Satan's reign as god of this world.

    When the time finally came that the SON became the Redeemer, by finally rising from the dead, defeating death, He then was worthy to take the book, which is what we see in chapter . He rose from the dead - was immediately found worthy - was seen ascending into the throne room - then immediately got the book and began opening the seals.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Sorry, the seals are NOT JUDGMENTS. AT the 5th seal the martyrs of the church age are crying out for judgment to begin: asking how long is it going to be before Judgment begins. (It begins at the 6th seal)
    Seal 1: the church sent out with the GOSPEL
    Seals 2, 3, 4: Satan's feeble attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited them to 1/4 of the earth.
    Seal 5: martyrs of the church age
    Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord
    Seal 7: the official start of the 70th week.
    1st trumpet tells us the BOOK is now opened.
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello vin.......the wicked 1st century rebellious Jews and their Religious Rulers were condemned to wrath along with the "Daughters of Jerusalem.
    All fulfilled in the 1st century as prophecied by Jesus, James, Peter, Paul and OT Prophets......

    Matthew 3:7
    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
    Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath?

    Luke 3:7
    Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
    Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath?

    Luke 21:23
    “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

    Luke 23:27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieved and wailed over Him.
    28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of Jerusalem no be lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.

    1Th 2:16 - forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

    Revelation 6:
    16 - and they said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
    17 - “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
    ========================================
    REVELATION 9:6 'MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM"
    the men shall seeking the death

    Revelation 9:6
    And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
    and they shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

     
  14. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with you as Daniel 9 speaks of the the 70 7's and both Dan 7 and Rev 13 show something significant happening with 42 months or a times times and half a time to go. Dan 9 clearly speaks of the middle of the week being when the sacrifice is stopped. The Rider on the white horse is before chapter 13 and is speaking about the prince to come confirming a covenant with the many for one week. This whole thing takes place in these 7 years.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Jerusalem was trampled by both the Jewish Rebels and Romans for 42 months...........

    Luke 21:24
    “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
    And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    Revelation 11:
    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be trampling <3961> forty two months.

    Revelation 14:20 -
    And the wine-press was trampled<3961> outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.
    ============================================
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

    Matthew 24:6

    “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
    but not as yet the End<5056>

    Mark 13:7

    “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
    but not as yet the End<5056>

    Luke 21:9

    “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
    but not immediately the End<5056>


    http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

    CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

    CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

    Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
    Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
    Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
    Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
    Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
    Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
    Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
    ========================
     
  16. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    No imagining needed. Christ is very much viewed in Chapter 4.

    Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

    Who is the voice of the trumpet?

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, ...​

    Do I need to do an exposition of who is the Alpha and Omega? Or can you agree that it refers to Jesus?

    So Jesus CLEARLY is the one calling John up to the throne room of God. And CLEARLY He must already be there in order to say "Come up hither, and I will shew ..."

    Agreed?
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You can certainly disagree with the truth if you wish. The truth is, the 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. What could be simpler?

    I agree that "it" as in the 70th week will take 7 years. However, that 7 years will start with the 7th seal and go to the 7th vial. The seals are not a part of the week. They are sealing the book that contains the 70th week.

    I agree: the event that stops the daily sacrifices will "mark" the exact midpoint of the week. I believe when the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews, THAT MOMENT of that event will stop the daily sacrifices: the temple will have to be cleansed before sacrifices can resume. But the man of sin will turn into the Beast and there will be no time for cleansing.

    Again I agree: Daniel twice and John 5 times told us the last half of the week will be 1260 days, or 42 months or 3.5 years. In Revelation the exact midpoint will be marked by the 7th trumpet. A few days before that, the man of sin will enter Jerusalem (11:1-2). He must be in Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.

    Just 3.5 days before he enters the temple, the two witnesses show up (11:3) and will then testify for 1260 days - which will take them to just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead those 3.5 days and will then be raised with ALL of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial.

    You are pulling the rider on the white horse at the first seal out of its 1st century context! It is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. OF course that happened when Jesus ascended, circa 32 AD. Chapter 13 is the Beast revealed, NOT when He confirms the covenant. The covenant confirmed will probably be done in secret. But God will know and will open the 7th seal in heaven so all in heaven will know the 70th week has begun. Perhaps few if any on earth will know. However, for those that understand Revelation, when the first trumpet judgment hits, they will know the week has started.

    This all goes back to chapters 4 & 5. When you miss the intent of the Author there, you will probably be wrong in most of the book. Chapters 4 & 5 establish the context and TIMING of the first seal to 32 AD when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  19. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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  20. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Sorry, that was a VOICE, not visual. And that was before the vision started. OF COURSE it was Jesus that called John up to heaven, around 95 AD. But we are more interested in the vision itself and what God's intent is in the vision.
    Nice try, but you will have to do better.
     
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