What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

Loversofjesus_2018

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Yeshua told us that it is adultery to take another mans wife, did he not? Didn't he also say that to lust in your heart for the same is equal to already having done the same deed? Our walk isn't easy.. and God will forgive anyone, 7 times or 70 X 7 times... when it is done without intent to rebel against Him. We can and will fail... but when we KNOW what He expects and we go and do something else entirely, deliberately, against His will??? That is where the line is drawn! And I can actually show that in the language itself.

Blessings.
Ken
But we do know what he expects and yet we still mess up sometimes. That means it’s deliberate. We know he said love your neighbor as yourself. Any time we do not do this we have crossed the line based off of what you stated. Or am I reading you wrong?
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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Your question is from human decision. I did not say human. I spoke of the knowledge of right and wrong that God puts in our hearts and conscience.
Ok but what if both people believe they have received something different from the spirit? This is common with interpretations
 
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Kaon

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The human condition was never really healed, or fixed, it was just whitewashed or covered up...

And the full ugliness of it now, is coming out now more than ever...

And I would take a stand against it but I'm only one man, and am still "human" myself....

God Bless!

That is what happens when you ignore the sick... piles up and before you realize it your entire house is trash. We have ignored most all of our faults and short-comings because most all of us hate to be confronted with it. We do, indeed, cover up our iniquity with man-defined success and social bemchmarks.

We see the standards of the Most High God, and instead of trying to adhere to them no matter what, we say it is too hard for us, and we make up our own qualifications for righteousness and "good". Now we are here - having progressed nowhere, and even more confused than in the antediluvian period.
 
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fhansen

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What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

It cannot be people who do not keep all of the OT Law perfectly, cause none of us do perfectly...?

And it cannot be the people that think they do, because they are wrong and are deceiving themselves and their own minds...?

So what is it...? And who are they...?

Discuss...?

Comments...?

Scripture refers to the "mystery of lawlessness" and the lawless one or ones being revealed, so, what is it and who are they...?

God Bless!
The New Covenant, and the faith that responds to it, have never been about providing an escape from the obligation to be righteous, or a license to sin. In fact, the standard is raised higher now, because we're supposed to be sinless within first of all. And Scripture is replete with directives or warnings about the need to obey the commandments, refrain from sin-especially the more serious kind (sin that leads to death), live in the Spirit and not fulfill the demands of the flesh, etc. We're to now walk righteously, finally, enabled by grace now. And if we slip and fall again, a change of heart and repentance in light of God's continuous offer of forgiveness can bring us back into proper relationship with Him. We're not expected to live like sons of the Devil when we enter sonship with Him. That would be to mock Him and the sacrifice of His Son. The lawless are anyone who practices lawlessness.
 
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Kris Jordan

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This is the basis for the false doctrine; not understanding John's message. John is speaking in contrasts of thoughts, a Semitic writing style, which also uses first person "we." Remember all the apostles were Hebrew. Semitic is Hebrew. He is contrasting light vs. darkness. You are believing in the verses for darkness for yourself, a gross error, and contradicts chapter 3 completely. (BTW Paul does the same thing by contrasting Romans 7 and 8, which I see in your post to AbbaLove you believe chapter 7 is to Christians, no, it it a contrast of Old Testament LAW vs. our sin nature. And chapter 8 contrasts that with the SPIRIT vs. the previous law of sin and death.)

Verse 5 - God is light.
Verse 6 - walking in darkness
Verse 7 - walking in the light
Verse 8 - an unbeliever saying they have no sin
Verse 9 - how to become cleansed of ALL SIN
Verse 10 an unbeliever saying they have never sinned.

Notice John contrasts every other verse, even separating verse 8 and 10 which almost say the same thing. A Greek would have written them in two paragraphs with 5, 7, and 9 in one, and 6, 8, and 10 in the second. This is our mindset, but we need to understand how a Jew writes. Now lets look at chapter 3. (Remember verse numbering was added by man centuries later.)

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.


7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.


16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?


18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.



24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


By the way, I want to show you the truth of your doctrine of Paul was still the chief of sinners, another lie of the devil.

1 Timothy 1:
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. (formerly) 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

This is the same Paul who wrote Romans 6:What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So your theological position (and belief) is that you never sin now that you're a believer?

Also, your assumption of Paul's statement of "I am chief of sinners" being a "former" description of himself is incorrect. It is present tense. The verb means "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present," and is from the root word which indicates "The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb."
 
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fhansen

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Then were all lawless and all doomed.
So there should be no improvement in law abiding? Even after receiving the Spirit? We're not expected-obligated- to do the best we can with what we're given?

The Parable of the Talents, where the wicked and lazy servant is booted from the kingdom for burying his talents instead of investing them, and where those given more were expected to return more, is echoed in Matt 13:12:
"Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him."

Based on whether or not they hardened their hearts or, instead, turned them to God.
 
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Neogaia777

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So there should be no improvement in law abiding? Even after receiving the Spirit? We're not expected-obligated- to do the best we can with what we're given?
Look, I sincerely do apologize (to all), but as you can maybe tell, I'm not in the best of spots right now in this moment, but I'm sure it will change, it always does, so... Dang human condition anyway...

Anyway, I am very much truly sorry...

Maybe I should come back later on...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Look, I sincerely do apologize (to all), but as you can maybe tell, I'm not in the best of spots right now in this moment, but I'm sure it will change, it always does, so... Dang human condition anyway...

Anyway, I am very much truly sorry...

Maybe I should come back later on...?

God Bless!
I'm showing you guys some of my heart anyway...

God Bless!
 
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fhansen

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Look, I sincerely do apologize (to all), but as you can maybe tell, I'm not in the best of spots right now in this moment, but I'm sure it will change, it always does, so... Dang human condition anyway...

Anyway, I am very much truly sorry...

Maybe I should come back later on...?

God Bless!
Um...you're forgiven. Of what I'm not sure tho. :)
 
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Neogaia777

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But we do know what he expects and yet we still mess up sometimes. That means it’s deliberate. We know he said love your neighbor as yourself. Any time we do not do this we have crossed the line based off of what you stated. Or am I reading you wrong?
You can love people all you want, and I'm not saying you/me/we shouldn't, but if you don't have any power to change people or change anything, it could all be in vain...

God Bless!
 
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CharismaticLady

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So your theological position (and belief) is that you never sin now that you're a believer?

Also, your assumption of Paul's statement of "I am chief of sinners" being a "former" description of himself is incorrect. It is present tense. The verb means "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present," and is from the root word which indicates "The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb."

Read 1 John 3. If then you still believe what you have been taught, then you are looking for justification to sin as they were who taught you, and don't care that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.."

I'm really trying to help YOU. What I hate are the teachers of the false doctrine of demons. Don't be close minded, by start opening up to the truth of what the apostles are actually saying.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.
 
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AlexDTX

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Ok but what if both people believe they have received something different from the spirit? This is common with interpretations
You're off topic. The OP asked about lawlessness and people who are lawless. Now you are talking about Christians and their different opinions. Not the topic.
 
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AbbaLove

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I just understand it as anything that misses the mark (or falls short) of God's perfect standard of holiness.
That's all well and good, but as you know it's relative in no small measure to one's religious indoctrination. For example some Calvinists, some WOF charismatics and easy seeker-sensitive Christians believe there future sins are already forgiven ... thus they don't take to heart their need for repentance to "nip it in the bud". Some rightfully consider gluttony to be a sin, not evil wickedness, but still a sin against one's body being the Temple of the Holy Spirit abiding in a new born again creation in Christ (Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5 - New American Standard Bible)

I'm referring in part to the Op's posts (e.g. #102 & #105) as how backslide one has to be before one questions whether they were ever a born again as a new creation in Christ.

Nip It In The Bud
Those who spare the rod(paddle) of discipline hate their children.
Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.


Opps: Off Topic

 
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AbbaLove

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You're off topic. The OP asked about lawlessness and people who are lawless. Now you are talking about Christians and their different opinions. Not the topic.
This should help get the thread back on track ... What is the mystery of iniquity? | GotQuestions.org

Secular humanism sure isn't helping further HIS Word nor is easy seeker-sensitive Christianity (IMO).
Should National Geographic and evolution be participant's in Paul's "mystery" of lawlessness assuming that their supporters don't "delight in lawlessness" ?


 
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Neogaia777

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I was bored, poked around on the internet and googled "christian discussion topics" and this was the first thing that came up, love how they try to do this to people though, anyway, thought I'd add my own thoughts and comments, it's obviously by some atheistic author trying to destroy or discredit Christianity and Religion, by a "Bo Bennet" I think, (PhD BTW) (I know, isn't that "soo" impressive) (anyway) trying to "sell" his damn book called "The Concept" anyway this is what comes up first thing (go figure)...

Does God Exist?
God exists, but far more likley as a concept than a being.

A concept or idea is a thing and a thing is being or is alive or exists. Some ideas or concepts or whatever we might destroy, create, or change, or whatever, some, not all, but is a still a "thing" that "exists" for as long as it exists, but that is another discussion for another time.

Can Life Have Meaning Without God?
Certainly. In fact, without the idea of divine meaning, we are free to give our lives our own meaning.

Yeah, everybody loves that, to bad it isn't true and will only end in disaster.

Is the Universe “Fine Tuned” for life?
Tuning implies a “tuner”. Something that must be tuned must also have been out of tune (imperfect) to start with. The initial laws and conditions of the universe are not bound to any laws, and therefore work because they are, not because they are tuned.

Everything was/is (already) determined/predetermined from the start by a predeterminer, programmer, etc, and does operate on or by laws, by a lawmaker or designer that made and/or designed, or whatever, to work and/or operate or proceed, or whatever, according to those laws that govern them.

Do Objective Moral Values Exist?
No, they don’t. Morality is a human-created concept that changes over time and different among cultures. The ideas of “right”, “wrong”, “good” and “evil” are nothing more than subjective ideas that exist only in our minds.

Again, too bad isn't true and will only end in disaster, absolute moral values are/were, long ago or were forever and always known and created by a moral determiner, who determined them cause he knows and always has known them having been through this "song and dance" many, many times before.

Do Miracles Happen?
While nobody can say for sure they don’t, it is extremely unlikely that they do, or ever did. It is easy to demonstrate the psychology behind miracles as well as debunk claims today.

Science actually says 100% belief (psychologically) can alter and change and even dictate and again, change/alter reality if we were actually capable of it. And capable of it "today"...

Do We Have Freewill?
Virtually all people, religious and non, accept that we have some type of freewill. The fact is, we are much more bound to determinism than most people think.

Your contradicting yourself, we are either free or not free, to choose/determine our own morals, beliefs etc, or we are not, so, which is it dude?

Can We Choose What We Believe?
Belief is many deterministic factors that are outside out control. So if we are not completely free to believe just on the basis of desire, the idea of salvation based on belief is flawed.

Again, you contradict yourself if your going to say that determinism is true, fact is, people who will believe or are predermined to believe (a certain way), by a predeterminer, are saved on the basis of that belief whether they chose it or not, got a problem with that, then take it up with the God you don't believe in.

Is Faith Really a Good “Virtue” to Have?
Faith, or believing in something with no evidence, is dangerous in many ways.

Define "evidence"...? A lot of people actually do believe or came to a belief based on some sort of "evidence" some just not the kind most atheists or the rest of the world would accept as "evidence".

What Does it Really Mean to Be “Spiritual”?
Spirituality does not mean believing in another world filled with beings and creatures; it is about having control over your emotions and inner happiness.

Wrong, spirituality means believing in spirits in some shape or form, whether our own, or ones in people, or other kind of "disembodied" ones, or ones not bound to the physical, in some shape or form, period.

Does Heaven and Hell Exist?
Our modern-day concepts of Heaven and Hell are so mythologized, that they are very little like the afterlife portrayed in the Bible. But even the Biblical afterlife ideas are widely varied and based on ancient beliefs. If such places do exist, we have absolutely no idea what they are like.

We know heaven is a very good place to be or go, and hell is a very bad place to be or go, for either good or bad people, as for their actual form, it/they are presented to us in a very symobolic/meaphorical, ect, "way" that is often subject to interpretation, but does not mean they don't exist.

Is There a Point to Prayer?
Study after study, prayer has been shown to have mixed results -- just like one would expect from any factor that had no effect on the outcome. Prayer has its benefits, but they have nothing to do with the divine.

Mixed results from mixed people, and how can you think you can know it never has any affects on any of the outcomes? And again, how do you think you can know it never has anything to do with the divine?

Do Christians Today Really Know About God?
Not at all. Most Christian’s idea of God is the “Gentle Jesus” of the New Testament, and remain (deliberately) ignorant of the Vengeful God of the Old Testament, as well at the Jesus who threatens eternal torture and suffering.

Well, we can agree on this one for the most part, doesn't mean it/they/him doesn't exist though, or never existed, or never did miracles or the supposed "supernatural" though, as proof of their power, presence, person, and existence though.

Do We Need God?
We, as a species, do not need God. But many people do need the idea of God.

The idea of God or a God or gods is no different from the "reality" I guess you could say, of them, so, do we need them, or not? There are never any absolutes ever without them, everything is subject and subjective without them, and that will only destroy us, and, they've been through this "song and dance" already before, as i stated earlier.

Can We Rely on the Authority of the Bible?
No, we can’t. The Bible is far from a historical and scientific textbook.

Yes it is very historical and that much has been proven, and it's not meant to be a scientific textbook. We can greatly rely on the truths it teaches us about ourselves, humanity, and the human condition.

Is Christianity True?
Much of what Christianity is based on is believed by many, to be historical fact.

And...? Your saying that is wrong...?

Christianity is really based on theologized stories with little, or no historical, factual, or scientific basis.

Bull, just plain atheistic bull, sorry. There is plenty of "that" to back it up, sorry.

God Bless!



Can you believe that searches ans such on the internet and such just "automatically" goes or directs people to this kind of bull or these atheistic/humanistic perspectives automatically, it "upsets" me sorry, cause i know a lot of people are just buying this crap at face value and are not even questioning it...?

Is there some sort of conspiracy against Christianity and Religion or something?

I thought searches were supposed to direct you to "neutral" sources first, this is definitely not neutral...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I was bored, poked around on the internet and googled "christian discussion topics" and this was the first thing that came up, love how they try to do this to people though, anyway, thought I'd add my own thoughts and comments, it's obviously by some atheistic author trying to destroy or discredit Christianity and Religion, by a "Bo Bennet" I think, trying to sell his damn book called "The Concept" anyway this is what comes up first thing (go figure)...

Does God Exist?
God exists, but far more likley as a concept than a being.

A concept or idea is a thing and a thing is being or is alive or exists. Some ideas or concepts or whatever we might destroy, create, or change, or whatever, some, not all, but is a still a "thing" that "exists" for as long as it exists, but that is another discussion for another time.

Can Life Have Meaning Without God?
Certainly. In fact, without the idea of divine meaning, we are free to give our lives our own meaning.

Yeah, everybody loves that, to bad it isn't true and will only end in disaster.

Is the Universe “Fine Tuned” for life?
Tuning implies a “tuner”. Something that must be tuned must also have been out of tune (imperfect) to start with. The initial laws and conditions of the universe are not bound to any laws, and therefore work because they are, not because they are tuned.

Everything was/is (already) determined/predetermined from the start by a predeterminer, programmer, etc, and does operate on or by laws, by a lawmaker or designer that made and/or designed, or whatever, to work and/or operate or proceed, or whatever, according to those laws that govern them.

Do Objective Moral Values Exist?
No, they don’t. Morality is a human-created concept that changes over time and different among cultures. The ideas of “right”, “wrong”, “good” and “evil” are nothing more than subjective ideas that exist only in our minds.

Again, too bad isn't true and will only end in disaster, absolute moral values are/were, long ago or were forever and always known and created by a moral determiner, who determined them cause he knows and always has known them having been through this "song and dance" many, many times before.

Do Miracles Happen?
While nobody can say for sure they don’t, it is extremely unlikely that they do, or ever did. It is easy to demonstrate the psychology behind miracles as well as debunk claims today.

Science actually says 100% belief (psychologically) can alter and change and even dictate and again, change/alter reality if we were actually capable of it. And capable of it "today"...

Do We Have Freewill?
Virtually all people, religious and non, accept that we have some type of freewill. The fact is, we are much more bound to determinism than most people think.

Your contradicting yourself, we are either free or not free, to choose/determine our own morals, beliefs etc, or we are not, so, which is it dude?

Can We Choose What We Believe?
Belief is many deterministic factors that are outside out control. So if we are not completely free to believe just on the basis of desire, the idea of salvation based on belief is flawed.

Again, you contradict yourself if your going to say that determinism is true, fact is, people who will believe or are predermined to believe (a certain way), by a predeterminer, are saved on the basis of that belief whether they chose it or not, got a problem with that, then take it up with the God you don't believe in.

Is Faith Really a Good “Virtue” to Have?
Faith, or believing in something with no evidence, is dangerous in many ways.

Define "evidence"...? A lot of people actually do believe or came to a belief based on some sort of "evidence" some just not the kind most atheists or the rest of the world would accept as "evidence".

What Does it Really Mean to Be “Spiritual”?
Spirituality does not mean believing in another world filled with beings and creatures; it is about having control over your emotions and inner happiness.

Wrong, spirituality means believing in spirits in some shape or form, whether our own, or ones in people, or other kind of "disembodied" ones, or ones not bound to the physical, in some shape or form, period.

Does Heaven and Hell Exist?
Our modern-day concepts of Heaven and Hell are so mythologized, that they are very little like the afterlife portrayed in the Bible. But even the Biblical afterlife ideas are widely varied and based on ancient beliefs. If such places do exist, we have absolutely no idea what they are like.

We know heaven is a very good place to be or go, and hell is a very bad place to be or go, for either good or bad people, as for their actual form, it/they are presented to us in a very symobolic/meaphorical, ect, "way" that is often subject to interpretation, but does not mean they don't exist.

Is There a Point to Prayer?
Study after study, prayer has been shown to have mixed results -- just like one would expect from any factor that had no effect on the outcome. Prayer has its benefits, but they have nothing to do with the divine.

Mixed results from mixed people, and how can you think you can know it never has any affects on any of the outcomes? And again, how do you think you can know it never has anything to do with the divine?

Do Christians Today Really Know About God?
Not at all. Most Christian’s idea of God is the “Gentle Jesus” of the New Testament, and remain (deliberately) ignorant of the Vengeful God of the Old Testament, as well at the Jesus who threatens eternal torture and suffering.

Well, we can agree on this one for the most part, doesn't mean it/they/him doesn't exist though, or never existed, or never did miracles or the supposed "supernatural" though, as proof of their power, presence, person, and existence though.

Do We Need God?
We, as a species, do not need God. But many people do need the idea of God.

The idea of God or a God or gods is no different from the "reality" I guess you could say, of them, so, do we need them, or not? There are never any absolutes ever without them, everything is subject and subjective without them, and that will only destroy us, and, they've been through this "song and dance" already before, as i stated earlier.

Can We Rely on the Authority of the Bible?
No, we can’t. The Bible is far from a historical and scientific textbook.

Yes it is very historical and that much has been proven, and it's not meant to be a scientific textbook. We can greatly rely on the truths it teaches us about ourselves, humanity, and the human condition.

Is Christianity True?
Much of what Christianity is based on is believed by many, to be historical fact.

And...? Your saying that is wrong...?

Christianity is really based on theologized stories with little, or no historical, factual, or scientific basis.

Bull, just plain atheistic bull, sorry. There is plenty of "that" to back it up, sorry.

God Bless!



Can you believe that searches ans such on the internet and such just "automatically" goes or directs people to this kind of bull or these atheistic/humanistic perspectives automatically, it "upsets" me sorry, cause i know a lot of people are just buying this crap at face value and are not even questioning it...?

Is there some sort of conspiracy against Christianity and Religion or something?

I thought searches were supposed to direct you to "neutral" sources first, this is definitely not neutral...

God Bless!
K, I know, way off topic, but i was upset, we can get back on topic now if you want?

I wanted to post these things on that/his page, even put in my email address, confirmed it and everything, but it wouldn't let me, so I put it here...

Sorry, I know way off topic, and like I said, we can get back on topic anytime you guys want to, K...?

Thanks,

God Bless!
 
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Ken Rank

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But we do know what he expects and yet we still mess up sometimes. That means it’s deliberate. We know he said love your neighbor as yourself. Any time we do not do this we have crossed the line based off of what you stated. Or am I reading you wrong?
No.... there is a difference my friend. Let me share this through the Hebrew language because it allows us to see what we have such a hard time articulating in English, ok?

There are three words in Hebrew that we might just chuck in the same corner and call it all sin. But our definition of sin is lacking and here is the proof. Three words...

#1 - chata'ah... this is the word we would translate as sin. Now, today we would say "sin is missing the mark." And that is true, and yet that definition also misses the mark. In Hebrew, the definition of chata'ah is best understood through a picture. Imagine an archer who has a bow, an arrow, and a target. He aims and he shoots with the intent of ALWAYS hitting the target. He never wants to aim at another target.... only the one before him. BUT... because he is a fallible man, he will simply miss from time to time no matter how hard he tries not to. Thus, this isn't intentional sin, this is unintentional sin and is forgivable because we're fallible, we are not God, and we will make mistakes (which God desires us to learn from).

#2 - avon... often translated as iniquity or transgression, we have the same archer, same bow and arrow, same target (the righteousness of God)... and the SAME INTENT. However, in this case, the archer gets caught up in an emotion and temporarily aims at another target. Once he calms down, and realizes his error, he would repent and go back to the original target.

#3 - pesha... simply rebellion. Same archer, same bow and arrow, same target... but this time the archer KNOWS WHAT TARGET God desires him to aim at, and deliberately with intent to go against God's will, this person looks for any other target to aim at.

So to sum this up... when we see that the love of God is keeping His commandments and we embrace that verse but then say we can't keep them because we are fallible, we are falling into a trap. We can walk the walk (we can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens us) and yet we can error as well. Not that we should desire that, and not that God desires it... it is simply that even if all we want to do is hit that one target with all our heart, mind, and soul... until we are perfected, we will simply miss every once in a while. When we do, we repent, learn from it, grow, and move on. :)

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Neogaia777

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That's all well and good, but as you know it's relative in no small measure to one's religious indoctrination. For example some Calvinists, some WOF charismatics and easy seeker-sensitive Christians believe there future sins are already forgiven ... thus they don't take to heart their need for repentance to "nip it in the bud". Some rightfully consider gluttony to be a sin, not evil wickedness, but still a sin against one's body being the Temple of the Holy Spirit abiding in a new born again creation in Christ (Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5 - New American Standard Bible)

I'm referring in part to the Op's posts (e.g. #102 & #105) as how backslide one has to be before one questions whether they were ever a born again as a new creation in Christ.

Nip It In The Bud
Those who spare the rod(paddle) of discipline hate their children.
Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.


Opps: Off Topic

I'm pretty much secure in my own Salvation, but really do worry a great, great deal about other people, loved ones most especially, when I look at how they are and the things they say and do, I just can't help but seriously doubt their own salvation, and it makes me feel very much alone, and I'm getting to the point of just not saying anything at all to them anymore, (cause I'm getting to the point to where I'm thinking it doesn't help and I'm really not helping anyway) (and they'd really hate me if I said what I really want to say sometimes) (anyway) and be around them and/or deal with them anymore, and it just makes me very, very, very sad, and very down and depressed sometimes...

God Bless!
 
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