Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

[ViaCrucis]

If this is the best you can do, then I'm far from convinced of your conclusion. You said that further in the text of your 1st link provided that it contradicted the pre-trib idea, but now you are implying it doesn't, and so you're bringing in other writings to impose on it. I think your link contradicted your initial statement about the idea not showing up until the 1800s, and you're doing everything you can think of to deny it. If you just admitted it was a mistake, and that you were wrong about that particular issue, I would listening to you and paying attention to the rest of your teaching. But now I see egg on your face, and you won't admit it. I think this little "dance" we had speaks volumes about why I shouldn't pay attention to you any more. Can we then agree to disagree?

I'm not sure how you have reached that conclusion.

I think I've been pretty consistent, and I fail to see where I've gotten "egg on my face".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

If this is the best you can do, then I'm far from convinced of your conclusion. You said that further in the text of your 1st link provided that it contradicted the pre-trib idea, but now you are implying it doesn't, and so you're bringing in other writings to impose on it. I think your link contradicted your initial statement about the idea not showing up until the 1800s, and you're doing everything you can think of to deny it. If you just admitted it was a mistake, and that you were wrong about that particular issue, I would listening to you and paying attention to the rest of your teaching. But now I see egg on your face, and you won't admit it. I think this little "dance" we had speaks volumes about why I shouldn't pay attention to you any more. Can we then agree to disagree?

True or false? 1 Th 4:17 has us passing through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. We are then behind those clouds and in the air to meet Jesus. The world below can't see us. Jesus comes to us, believers only, and only we can see Him. Do you understand that from 1 Th 4:17?

 

[tdidymas]

True or false? 1 Th 4:17 has us passing through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. We are then behind those clouds and in the air to meet Jesus. The world below can't see us. Jesus comes to us, believers only, and only we can see Him. Do you understand that from 1 Th 4:17?

I see what you're saying, but don't agree with your conclusion, because it requires a pre-trib pretext. In Acts, the Angel said Jesus would come just as He left, which means OUT OF the clouds, to the Earth. All you have is opinion, which can be refuted easily with any scripture text.

 

[tdidymas]

I'm not sure how you have reached that conclusion.

I think I've been pretty consistent, and I fail to see where I've gotten "egg on my face".

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not going to spell out to you the history of this conversation regarding the point I made. If you can't remember what you said or the link you provided or how you evaded the question, then I can't help you.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I see what you're saying, but don't agree with your conclusion, because it requires a pre-trib pretext. In Acts, the Angel said Jesus would come just as He left, which means OUT OF the clouds, to the Earth. All you have is opinion, which can be refuted easily with any scripture text.

You are misquoting Acts 1:11: (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

That verse says: "... will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” ---- It's about the same WAY, which has nothing to with location.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I see what you're saying, but don't agree with your conclusion, because it requires a pre-trib pretext. In Acts, the Angel said Jesus would come just as He left, which means OUT OF the clouds, to the Earth. All you have is opinion, which can be refuted easily with any scripture text.

Here's Acts 1:9 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (ESV): ... This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus went up by Himself and out of the sight of the disciples, because He went BEHIND clouds. He was behind clouds all the way up to Heaven. Please note that Jesus ascended only in the view of believers (His disciples). Therefore, the WAY Jesus ascended was (1) by Himself; (2) only in the view of believers; (2) and behind clouds into Heaven. The reverse-sequence for His NEXT return will be (1) He'll descend by Himself from Heaven; (2) behind heavenly clouds, and (3) into the view of believers, only.

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... Verse 17: ... Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ...

In the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17), Jesus will descend by Himself from Heaven, behind clouds, and only into the view of believers.

The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ.

What makes the rapture prophesied to occur pre-Trib? Verses 1 Th 1:10, Rev 6:4 and Ezekiel 14:21. See below.

1 Th 1:10 (NKJV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere. ----- Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. ----- What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1.

 

[tdidymas]

Charles C. Ryrie​

The Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon carries two definitions for "apostasia." You can easily find out about this very acclaimed lexicon on the internet. In this very acclaimed lexicon are apostasia's top-two definitions: definition #1 is "defection; revolt," and definition #2 is "departure; disappearance." "Departure" in Greek relates to physical departure or in English, disappearance. Therefore, it fits if describing what occurs in the rapture. Those same two definitions for apostasia appear in various articles, always citing Liddell & Scott.

I'm not making up anything about 2 Th 2:1-3. The early Bibles say (see at bottom) what I am trying to get you to understand. 2 Th 2:1 merely raises the topic of the rapture. Paul needed to address the rapture because he got word that his Thessalonian flock had received a fraudulent letter, made to appear to be from him, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. All that is directly or indirectly in 2 Th 2:2-3. I am not making anything up. In verse 3, Paul corrects his flock: "That day" (referring to verse 2's "Day of the Lord") will not come as the apostasia comes first. In this context of rapture, only definition #2 of apostasia fits.

Recap: in verse 1, Paul cites the rapture, therefore the context is rapture. In verse 2 and in early verse 3, he acknowledges the deception suffered by his flock. In the rest of verse 3, he says the Trib (Day of the Lord) won't come as the apostasia (departure; disappearance) comes first. We know it's definition #2 of apostasia because the context is rapture.

Here are three verses from early Bibles, covering 2 Th 2:1-3. They say what I claim about them. I am not making anything up.

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

This is a verse that was written about what happened in Thessalonica after Paul left, after teaching about the rapture (1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17). This is what led to the fraudulent letter being sent to Paul's Thessalonian flock: Acts 17:5 (NIV): But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

Your idea is thoroughly refuted in this link: Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a 'Physical Departure' (i.e. the Rapture)? | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES
I suggest you read it carefully.

 

[tdidymas]

You are misquoting Acts 1:11: (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

That verse says: "... will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” ---- It's about the same WAY, which has nothing to with location.

Yet, you are making it about location yourself. "Into heaven" in the context of Acts means up into the sky. He went UP out of sight because He was too far away from them. If you disagree, then it's just a clash of opinions because you have a pre-trib agenda.

 

[tdidymas]

Here's Acts 1:9 (ESV): And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Acts 1:11 (ESV): ... This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus went up by Himself and out of the sight of the disciples, because He went BEHIND clouds. He was behind clouds all the way up to Heaven. Please note that Jesus ascended only in the view of believers (His disciples). Therefore, the WAY Jesus ascended was (1) by Himself; (2) only in the view of believers; (2) and behind clouds into Heaven. The reverse-sequence for His NEXT return will be (1) He'll descend by Himself from Heaven; (2) behind heavenly clouds, and (3) into the view of believers, only.

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven ... Verse 17: ... Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, ...

In the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17), Jesus will descend by Himself from Heaven, behind clouds, and only into the view of believers.

The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ.

What makes the rapture prophesied to occur pre-Trib? Verses 1 Th 1:10, Rev 6:4 and Ezekiel 14:21. See below.

1 Th 1:10 (NKJV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere. ----- Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals. ----- What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1.

Like I said before, you have to have a pre-trib agenda to read it the way you read it. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Your idea is thoroughly refuted in this link: Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a 'Physical Departure' (i.e. the Rapture)? | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES
I suggest you read it carefully.

I know about this article. It did refresh what I know about it. There is one instance in the Bible where definition #2 (departure; disappearance) was done by Jesus. Luke 24:30-31 (CEV): After Jesus sat down to eat, he took some bread. He blessed it and broke it. Then he gave it to them. 31 At once they knew who he was, but he disappeared. ----- Jesus demonstrated definition #2 of apostasia. This example is proof that a sudden physical departure (disappearance) as apostasia's defintion #2, is in Scripture.

What is truly important to focus on is the what Paul wrote, and the context applicable to it. Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Those teachings ultimately caused a tremendous uproar in the area where Paul had been teaching. That tremendous uproar was written about in Acts 17:5 (NIV): But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

This is what later led to the fraudulent letter (cited in 2 Th 2:2), made to look like it was from Paul, saying his followers had missed the rapture and were in the Trib.

Paul wrote 2 Th 2:1-3 to correct his Thessalonian flock about the timing of the rapture. His concern for their understanding is obvious in verse 1:

2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

Verse 2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

Verse 3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in in verse 3 refers back to verse 2's Day of the Lord, meant to be the first seven years of the Day of the Lord. Some folks state that the Day of the Lord extends to the end of the Millennial Kingdom. However, it definitely begins with the 7-year Trib. So, Paul was saying the Trib won't start until the rapture occurs. This isn't my opinion.

God bless!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Like I said before, you have to have a pre-trib agenda to read it the way you read it. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

I just kindly sent this message to Mr. Alan Kurschner:

Dear Mr. Kurschner:

There's one instance in the Bible where definition #2 of apostasia (departure; disappearance) was done by Jesus. Luke 24:30-31 (CEV): After Jesus sat down to eat, he took some bread. He blessed it and broke it. Then he gave it to them. 31 At once they knew who he was, but he disappeared. ----- Jesus demonstrated definition #2 of apostasia. This example is proof that a sudden physical departure (disappearance) as apostasia's definition #2, is in Scripture.

What is truly important to focus on is the what Paul wrote, and the context applicable to it. Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Those teachings ultimately caused a tremendous uproar in the area where Paul had been teaching. That tremendous uproar was written about in Acts 17:5 (NIV): But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

This is what later led to the fraudulent letter (cited in 2 Th 2:2), made to look like it was from Paul, saying his followers had missed the rapture and were in the Trib.

Paul wrote 2 Th 2:1-3 to correct his Thessalonian flock about the timing of the rapture. His concern for their understanding is obvious in verse 1:

2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

Verse 2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

Verse 3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

 

[tdidymas]

I know about this article. It did refresh what I know about it. There is one instance in the Bible where definition #2 (departure; disappearance) was done by Jesus. Luke 24:30-31 (CEV): After Jesus sat down to eat, he took some bread. He blessed it and broke it. Then he gave it to them. 31 At once they knew who he was, but he disappeared. ----- Jesus demonstrated definition #2 of apostasia. This example is proof that a sudden physical departure (disappearance) as apostasia's defintion #2, is in Scripture.

No that term is not apostasia.

What is truly important to focus on is the what Paul wrote, and the context applicable to it. Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Those teachings ultimately caused a tremendous uproar in the area where Paul had been teaching. That tremendous uproar was written about in Acts 17:5 (NIV): But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

This is what later led to the fraudulent letter (cited in 2 Th 2:2), made to look like it was from Paul, saying his followers had missed the rapture and were in the Trib.

Paul wrote 2 Th 2:1-3 to correct his Thessalonian flock about the timing of the rapture. His concern for their understanding is obvious in verse 1:

2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

Verse 2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

Verse 3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in in verse 3 refers back to verse 2's Day of the Lord, meant to be the first seven years of the Day of the Lord. Some folks state that the Day of the Lord extends to the end of the Millennial Kingdom. However, it definitely begins with the 7-year Trib. So, Paul was saying the Trib won't start until the rapture occurs. This isn't my opinion.

God bless!

Like I said, your opinion here is based on the pre-trib theory, and that theory is required to read into these scriptures. It's an opinion.

 

[tdidymas]

I just kindly sent this message to Mr. Alan Kurschner:

Dear Mr. Kurschner:

There's one instance in the Bible where definition #2 of apostasia (departure; disappearance) was done by Jesus. Luke 24:30-31 (CEV): After Jesus sat down to eat, he took some bread. He blessed it and broke it. Then he gave it to them. 31 At once they knew who he was, but he disappeared. ----- Jesus demonstrated definition #2 of apostasia. This example is proof that a sudden physical departure (disappearance) as apostasia's definition #2, is in Scripture.

What is truly important to focus on is the what Paul wrote, and the context applicable to it. Paul had taught the Thessalonians about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17. Those teachings ultimately caused a tremendous uproar in the area where Paul had been teaching. That tremendous uproar was written about in Acts 17:5 (NIV): But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

This is what later led to the fraudulent letter (cited in 2 Th 2:2), made to look like it was from Paul, saying his followers had missed the rapture and were in the Trib.

Paul wrote 2 Th 2:1-3 to correct his Thessalonian flock about the timing of the rapture. His concern for their understanding is obvious in verse 1:

2 Th 2:1 (NLT): Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.

Verse 2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

Verse 3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Please let me know if he responds.

 

[JulieB67]

Your idea is thoroughly refuted in this link: Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a 'Physical Departure' (i.e. the Rapture)? | ESCHATOS MINISTRIES
I suggest you read it carefully.

That's a great article. He goes through every argument on the topic. A great read. Especially diving into the Liddell and Scott aspect of it as well.

There's one instance in the Bible where definition #2 of apostasia (departure; disappearance) was done by Jesus

As tdidymas mentions it's not the same word as apostasia so it cannot be used as an example or proof of anything.

Luke 24:31 "And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight."

The original text according the Strong's is 1096 or 855- ginomai/aphantos

But neither is apostasia.

855 for example-

aphantos- non manifested -i.e. invisible-vanished out of sight. -That's what Christ did. He did no form of apostasia.

Paul did not use 1096 or 855. in 2nd Thes which he most likely would have if your understanding were correct.

 

[The Liturgist]

Now I know why you're continually wrong. You're quoting a crackpot.

@ViaCrucis is one of the most theologically learned members of ChristianForums, along with @prodromos and @dzheremi , and writes his own posts. He certainly does not quote a “crackpot” and what is more Psuedo-Ephraim was an important Church Father who, like Psuedo-Dionysius, engaged in the pious custom of attributing their works to someone from the past they regarded as more learned than themselves (as opposed to the fraudulent psuedepigrapha we see from Gnostics).

 

[ViaCrucis]

I just kindly sent this message to Mr. Alan Kurschner:

Dear Mr. Kurschner:

There's one instance in the Bible where definition #2 of apostasia (departure; disappearance) was done by Jesus. Luke 24:30-31 (CEV): After Jesus sat down to eat, he took some bread. He blessed it and broke it. Then he gave it to them. 31 At once they knew who he was, but he disappeared. ----- Jesus demonstrated definition #2 of apostasia. This example is proof that a sudden physical departure (disappearance) as apostasia's definition #2, is in Scripture.

Here is Luke 24:30-31

καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς· αὐτῶν δὲ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ καὶ ἐπέγνωσαν αὐτόν· καὶ αὐτὸς ἄφαντος ἐγένετο ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν

Are you sure you didn't confuse aphantos with apostasia? Aphantos, used in verse 31 and translated as "vanished" does, in fact, mean "vanish", or literally "un-appeared".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That's a great article. He goes through every argument on the topic. A great read. Especially diving into the Liddell and Scott aspect of it as well.

As tdidymas mentions it's not the same word as apostasia so it cannot be used as an example or proof of anything.

Luke 24:31 "And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight."

The original text according the Strong's is 1096 or 855- ginomai/aphantos

But neither is apostasia.

855 for example-

aphantos- non manifested -i.e. invisible-vanished out of sight. -That's what Christ did. He did no form of apostasia.

Paul did not use 1096 or 855. in 2nd Thes which he most likely would have if your understanding were correct.

Here is Luke 24:30-31

καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς· αὐτῶν δὲ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ καὶ ἐπέγνωσαν αὐτόν· καὶ αὐτὸς ἄφαντος ἐγένετο ἀπ᾽ αὐτῶν

Are you sure you didn't confuse aphantos with apostasia? Aphantos, used in verse 31 and translated as "vanished" does, in fact, mean "vanish", or literally "un-appeared".

-CryptoLutheran

In Luke 24:31, Jesus demonstrated apostasia’s second definition.

Apostasia has five definitions. The top two are (1) defection; revolt; (2) departure; disappearance.

The early English Bibles got it right, as in 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Per the second definition of apostasia, we are raptured in 2 Th 2:3, then the Trib starts.

Paul also wrote 1 Th 1:10 (GNV): And to look for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivereth us from that wrath to come.

Ezek 14:21 (GNV): 21 “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

War is a form of God’s wrath.

Rev 6:4 (NIV): Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

The wrath of God (wars) is in the 2nd seal: Rev 6:3-4. That seal causes wars all over the world.

That is the wrath Paul was referring to in 1 Th 1:10. We are raptured pre-Trib.

 

[JulieB67]

n Luke 24:31, Jesus demonstrated apostasia’s second definition.

You keep stating this but they are different words so how can he demonstrate the second definition of apostasia when apostasia is not in that verse? It's aphantos which means non-manesfested/vanished out of sight which I already stated. That's the word that's in Luke 24:31, not apostasia.

For any kind of proof apostasia would have to be the word in Luke 24:31 and it's not. To even suggest the Lord has any part in apostasia is absurd to begin with.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You keep stating this but they are different words so how can he demonstrate the second definition of apostasia when apostasia is not in that verse? It's aphantos which means non-manesfested/vanished out of sight which I already stated. That's the word that's in Luke 24:31, not apostasia.

For any kind of proof apostasia would have to be the word in Luke 24:31 and it's not. To even suggest the Lord has any part in apostasia is absurd to begin with.

Apostasia has five definitions. The top two are (1) defection; revolt; (2) departure; disappearance.

Therefore, “departure” in Greek translation to English, means “physical departure” with its relationship to “disappearance.”

The early English Bibles got it right, as in 2 Th 2:3 (GNV): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Per the second definition of apostasia, we are raptured in 2 Th 2:3, then the Trib starts.

Paul also wrote 1 Th 1:10 (GNV): And to look for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivereth us from that wrath to come.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You keep stating this but they are different words so how can he demonstrate the second definition of apostasia when apostasia is not in that verse? It's aphantos which means non-manesfested/vanished out of sight which I already stated. That's the word that's in Luke 24:31, not apostasia.

For any kind of proof apostasia would have to be the word in Luke 24:31 and it's not. To even suggest the Lord has any part in apostasia is absurd to begin with.

Apostasia’s second definition is “departure; disappearance.” Therefore, “departure” means “physical departure.”

In Luke 24:31, Jesus demonstrated a physical departure.