What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

[Neogaia777]

No.... there is a difference my friend. Let me share this through the Hebrew language because it allows us to see what we have such a hard time articulating in English, ok?

There are three words in Hebrew that we might just chuck in the same corner and call it all sin. But our definition of sin is lacking and here is the proof. Three words...

#1 - chata'ah... this is the word we would translate as sin. Now, today we would say "sin is missing the mark." And that is true, and yet that definition also misses the mark. In Hebrew, the definition of chata'ah is best understood through a picture. Imagine an archer who has a bow, an arrow, and a target. He aims and he shoots with the intent of ALWAYS hitting the target. He never wants to aim at another target.... only the one before him. BUT... because he is a fallible man, he will simply miss from time to time no matter how hard he tries not to. Thus, this isn't intentional sin, this is unintentional sin and is forgivable because we're fallible, we are not God, and we will make mistakes (which God desires us to learn from).

#2 - avon... often translated as iniquity or transgression, we have the same archer, same bow and arrow, same target (the righteousness of God)... and the SAME INTENT. However, in this case, the archer gets caught up in an emotion and temporarily aims at another target. Once he calms down, and realizes his error, he would repent and go back to the original target.

#3 - pesha... simply rebellion. Same archer, same bow and arrow, same target... but this time the archer KNOWS WHAT TARGET God desires him to aim at, and deliberately with intent to go against God's will, this person looks for any other target to aim at.

So to sum this up... when we see that the love of God is keeping His commandments and we embrace that verse but then say we can't keep them because we are fallible, we are falling into a trap. We can walk the walk (we can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengthens us) and yet we can error as well. Not that we should desire that, and not that God desires it... it is simply that even if all we want to do is hit that one target with all our heart, mind, and soul... until we are perfected, we will simply miss every once in a while. When we do, we repent, learn from it, grow, and move on.

Blessings.
Ken

Did you see my post #19...?

Anyway, thanks for mentioning and posting this/that.

God Bless!

 

[AlexDTX]

Should National Geographic and evolution be participant's in Paul's "mystery" of lawlessness assuming that their supporters don't "delight in lawlessness" ?

Very interesting contrast. I had to think about what you said for a moment before I saw your point. Thank you for that thought provoking imagery.

 

[Kris Jordan]

Read 1 John 3. If then you still believe what you have been taught, then you are looking for justification to sin as they were who taught you, and don't care that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.."

I'm really trying to help YOU. What I hate are the teachers of the false doctrine of demons. Don't be close minded, by start opening up to the truth of what the apostles are actually saying.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

Now answer the original question I asked...

 

[Kris Jordan]

That's all well and good, but as you know it's relative in no small measure to one's religious indoctrination. For example some Calvinists, some WOF charismatics and easy seeker-sensitive Christians believe there future sins are already forgiven ... thus they don't take to heart their need for repentance to "nip it in the bud". Some rightfully consider gluttony to be a sin, not evil wickedness, but still a sin against one's body being the Temple of the Holy Spirit abiding in a new born again creation in Christ (Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:5 - New American Standard Bible)

I'm referring in part to the Op's posts (e.g. #102 & #105) as how backslide one has to be before one questions whether they were ever a born again as a new creation in Christ.

Hi AbbaLove,

Understood. But whether or not someone takes grace and forgiveness for granted doesn't negate what God says is true about it in His Word. He is capable of determining those who are His, those who aren't and those who simply lack spiritual maturity, discernment, and understanding, so I don't need to worry about that part. In other words, it's not my job to worry about what others do with God's truth. It's my job to believe what He says, regardless.

 

[AbbaLove]

... cause I'm getting to the point to where I'm thinking it doesn't help and I'm really not helping anyway) (and they'd really hate me if I said what I really want to say sometimes) (anyway) and be around them and/or deal with them anymore, and it just makes me very, very, very sad, and very down and depressed sometimes

I can relate to same for they that are of the world think it's us that are either: too religious, have a loose nut or trying to save them from themself when we witness to them ... relying on our own wisdom rather than relying on the Peace and Confidence of HIS Presence guiding us. HE quides us with HIS timing not what seems appropriate or convenient with our timing.

I've learned the hard way as afterward i realize it was I that was trying to do it by myself. And yes there are times i still find myself falling into the same trap (me, myself and I), but it always works better with His Help. If at first you don't succeed and the next time you don't succeed don't throw in the towel. The LORD may be proving your Trust in HIM (Proverbs 3:5-8) and not our own religious wisdom. Ya just got to keep Loving them and relying more and more on HIM and HIS Timing.

The "mystery of lawlessness" really isn't as much a mystery to HIS Faithful Believers as it is to those that are seduced (perishing) by worldly wisdom with its pursuits and pleasures.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and with signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for all those that perish because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.​

When Paul uses the word "mystery" whether in Ephesians referring to Christ's atoning work on the cross or in 2 Thessalonians referring to the Anti-Christ, he (Paul) is referring to why GOD chooses to work the way He does. In a manner of speaking it's as much a mystery to Paul why GOD works the way HE does. And to the world they brush it off as the foolishness of God when they question even His existence and yet can be heard saying "Oh, my God!" or "God damm it!" ...

1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.​

 

[Ken Rank]

Did you see my post #19...?

Anyway, thanks for mentioning and posting this/that.

God Bless!

I did and didn't reply because I had nothing to add. What you said was great.... if we know we can't be perfect, why try? That's the attitude of many. But the thing is, God expects us to try AND to learn from our mistakes... as any good Father would!

We should combine what I shared about those 3 words with your analogy... together it makes a very solid point.

Bottom line is that God expects us to seek righteousness. Folks would do themselves good by looking at how righteousness is defined in both the modern and 1828 Websters. It's kind of eye opening.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[AbbaLove]

In other words, it's not my job to worry about what others do with God's truth. It's my job to believe what He says, regardless.

You missed the purpose of my post that being discernment not worry. Worry doesn't accomplish anything. I sense that my sister in Christ could use more discernment (JMO)

Do you find my previous post #145 to have relevance to this thread ?​

 

[AbbaLove]

Bottom line is that God expects us to seek righteousness. Folks would do themselves good by looking at how righteousness is defined in both the modern and 1828 Websters. It's kind of eye opening.

There's still a tinge of co-righteousness as if we can achieve it by our own will. Like the book "God Is My Co-Pilot" when our only hope of HIS Righteousness should be discerned as "God Is My Pilot" (not co-pilot).

Noah Webster as an academic intellectual apparently didn't see the need to include three other verses. In other words did Webster's understanding for attaining GOD'S Righteousness take into account "spiritual discernment" when Webster didn't include: Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:10 or Philippians 3:9 in place of even one of the other three verses he chose ...
Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - righteousness

Here is Webster's definition of a Christian ... Definition of CHRISTIAN ... no mention is made of being born again as a new creation in Christ, but rather as a member of a Christian Church that he would consider reputable.

Webster in early life was something of a freethinker, but in 1808 he became a convert to Calvinistic orthodoxy, and thereafter became a devout Congregationalist who preached the need to Christianize the nation.​

From my limited experience attending a Congregational Church (in the 60s while attending college) i now look back, 55+ years later as it being liberal with a social message that would appeal to the mindset of most college professors and students. I wonder if Noah Webster even believed in the Holy Spirit abiding in him as his Counselor.

 

[Kris Jordan]

​

You missed the purpose of my post that being discernment not worry. Worry doesn't accomplish anything. I sense that my sister in Christ could use more discernment (JMO)

Do you find my previous post #145 to have relevance to this thread ?​

Hi AbbaLove,

I haven't been following every post on this thread. I only responded originally and then was responding to those who responded to me So I can't really answer that since I haven't been tracking with the direction it has taken/gone...

 

[AK777Lite]

I really like questions like this Neogaia777. I dont think enough of us ask these kinds of questions. I saw another post of yours a while back asking about true repentance related to Nineveh. It really demonstrates that you're intent on understanding the nature of repentance and living for God, which is an awesome thing.

I have been meditating on this and trying to understand God's word on this for quite some time. If I was to describe lawlessness simply, it would be living as if we dont know exactly how God wants us to live (i.e. living as if there weren't specific guidance around what God wanted our lives to look like, whether that's relationships, community, our behavior at work, etc.).

For me, this links back to a true understanding of rebellion and therefore a true understanding of repentance. We were all given freewill by God, which is a tremendous power and responsibility. We were created in God's image to bear God's image with our lives, but we were also given the choice to be able to not do that. No other creatures have this choice. Dogs always behave like dogs, cats always behave like cats, etc. They always act the way they are supposed to act. We were given the option not to reflect the image we were created to reflect. Our natural bent with our "freedom" is to "go our own way". That is to bear our own image, define success as we'd like to define it, try as hard (or more often not as hard) as we'd like to try, focus on what we want to focus on, etc. This is rebellion of course, the definition of lawlessness. Now, true repentance is to relent from that, to "forsake those ways and those thoughts" (Isaiah 55:7) for God's ways and his thoughts, which are very far from our "natural" ways and thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

This is really an all or nothing type deal, and this is where I think many of us miss it. Because we confuse wanting to do "some" of what God says or "most" of what God says with surrendering to do "all" of what God says, which is always how true repentance is put (Exodus 19:8, Nehemiah 10:29, Matthew 28:20). The confusion for us is what does that look like in practice. And the analogy that I like to use is someone who has been eating poorly and not exercising and taking care of themselves and have gained a lot of weight. Let's say you're roughly 300lbs overweight. Now, God says you should be able to bench 200lbs and sprint 11 sec in the 100 yard dash, and run 5 min miles, but you haven't been pursing any of that your entire life, you've been pursuing laziness and eating as much of whatever tasted good as you felt like eating. Now suddenly you repent from that life and start pursuing the goals God wants to see in your life. How does that look like tomorrow? Does it look like you running a 5 min mile? That's impossible, you're 300lbs overweight. But it's evident when someone who is 300lbs overweight has decided, as the number one goal in their life, to get fit. It's unmistakable. They'll change their diet, and they'll start exercising as they know how. And they'll start dropping the weight. And they'll read and learn more about what they should eat and work out, and they'll incorporate it. They'll have the occasional meal slip up and they'll miss the occasional gym day, but that's part of the process of completely revamping one's life. It doesn't happen in a day. But they'll learn from the mistakes and they'll get better and better. It'll appear like they have a target, a goal in mind. If you look at them 1 month later, they'll still be overweight, of course. It takes time for finite creatures to change, and God hasn't created a world where one can eat whatever they want and not exercise for 20 years and suddenly be fit tomorrow because they "want to". It's not how it works. There is no miracle that will make that happen suddenly overnight. But even though that person is not "sinless" (i.e. they are not fit) they are "blameless" (i.e. they are doing everything they can, with the time that they've had and the decisions that they've made, to become fit). One cant "blame" someone who has decided to lose weight, is sticking with their diet and exercise regimen and are not complacent in them. It is going to take time for them to loose weight, but they are on the right path to losing it. And the progress will be clearly evident. In fact, the "miracle" here would be how someone who has been ignoring salad their entire life is suddenly trying to find the best salad-protein combination meals to stave off hunger and lose the weight, and now says no to cupcakes more often than not.

Contrast that with someone who says they want to lose weight, but their approach to that is reading diet and fitness magazines but not actually doing any of the exercises, or only doing them occasionally as they can fit it in their schedule. Or someone that adds a diet coke and a side salad to their near daily double cheeseburger meals and says they're trying to get fit. There is no doubt that such a person "wants" to be fit. It is on the list of things that they want. They'll even lose a little weight by doing that. It just isn't at the top of the list. Something else is above it, whether that's fear of change or just the taste of a daily double cheeseburger. And it's clear that running a 5 min mile in the future is not a priority. That is lawlessness. Even though they changed their diet a bit, and they read a bunch of fitness and health magazines and know the lingo, it's evident that they have yet to fully surrender to being fit as the driving and overarching goal in their life.

Christ regularly talked about selling everything one has, renouncing everything, and hating one's life for his sake as the only way to be his disciple. Christ talked about counting the cost of discipleship and understanding the terms of peace with God. These are the terms of peace. Total surrender, and faith in Christ. Unfortunately, this has been confused throughout church history because of so many people who I believe genuine love and care for Christ, they just haven't fully surrendered to him. Like I love my mom, and if she asked me to do something I'd move my schedule around to help her out, but she isn't my Lord. Many people love Christ like that. Jesus' family loved him like that when they tried to get him so he could eat something that one time. But Jesus said that his true family are those who "do the will of his Father in heaven" (Matthew 12:50). Not perfectly, but blamelessly.

Our understanding of blamelessness is complicated by our lack of understanding our bodies as something in the world that rebels against us and that we need to learn how to subdue. And that such a process takes time. Jesus himself "grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man", and we must likewise do the same. It will take time. But if it is the number one thing in our lives then we will pursue it as if it is, like an athlete who exercises self-control in all things to accomplish a goal, we will make what God wants to see in our relationships, our families, our workplaces, our communities, our goal and craft everything we do around that. We will likewise discipline our bodies and make it our slaves (1 Corinthians 9:27). That takes knowledge, time, planning, trial and error, tons of feedback and a great big open heart towards criticism (just like it does for athletes) as well as really just loving God enough to desire to bring him something that would be pleasing to him.

I believe this is a work that God is doing in people's hearts. We have seen it throughout history. I believe this is the true gospel, the chance, and the power, to abandon the tyranny of "going my own way" and the problems it produces and wholeheartedly pursue God's way. To trust him with our lives now and in the world to come. If we present the true terms of peace I think God will use it in peoples lives to truly transform us into what we should be, rather than the cheap imitations we often see in our churches these days.

 

[AK777Lite]

I'm pretty much secure in my own Salvation, but really do worry a great, great deal about other people, loved ones most especially, when I look at how they are and the things they say and do, I just can't help but seriously doubt their own salvation, and it makes me feel very much alone, and I'm getting to the point of just not saying anything at all to them anymore, (cause I'm getting to the point to where I'm thinking it doesn't help and I'm really not helping anyway) (and they'd really hate me if I said what I really want to say sometimes) (anyway) and be around them and/or deal with them anymore, and it just makes me very, very, very sad, and very down and depressed sometimes...

God Bless!

My previous message was a discussion on your first post, and was something kinda weighing on my heart. I also wanted to reply to this one. It seems like you're having a hard time with the people you're around and that can definitely be depressing. Really sorry that's happening to you, take heart! I'm having a similar experience in my life as well, with a girl I was dating and some of the members of the church she's currently attending. I was recently encouraged by these words from 1 Corinthians 4:1-2: "Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God."

You have received mercy from God. You have totally surrendered your life, you trust him, and are pursing him. And if God did that in you then dont lose heart, he can do it in them. Just share the truth in love and with your life. You focus on manifesting God's will in your own behavior, understanding yourself and your sinful tendencies and focus on your part in creating relationships full of love, transparency, support, understanding, self-sacrifice, patience, kindness, gentleness etc. We all have so far to go, and many ways for God to minister in other people's lives as we get our lives more and more together and they see that. As we strengthen and leverage our strengths and rise above our weaknesses. And as we learn how to be better friends, encouragers, and engagers of people's lives and hearts. If you've never read John Wesley's journal I'd definitely recommend that. It's free online. He was trying to devoutly follow God, but it took him three years of searching and seeking understanding before he was truly saved. Sometimes it just takes time for people to count the cost, fully surrender, and truly put all their trust in Christ. We just need to help them understand who God is, what he's asking for, and about the humble, non-assuming, posture we need to pursue him with when we're struggling with either repentance or faith. I believe he is faithful and will bless your labor. Perhaps not exactly as we would like sometimes, but it is his world after all. He know's what he's doing. Our job is simply to reflect his glory as best we can today and better and better every day. May the Lord be with you!