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Featured What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

    It cannot be people who do not keep all of the OT Law perfectly, cause none of us do perfectly...?

    And it cannot be the people that think they do, because they are wrong and are deceiving themselves and their own minds...?

    So what is it...? And who are they...?

    Discuss...?

    Comments...?

    Scripture refers to the "mystery of lawlessness" and the lawless one or ones being revealed, so, what is it and who are they...?

    God Bless!
     
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  2. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    I understand lawlessness as those who make sin a practice rather than those who struggle with sin. We all struggle with sin but making sin a practice is different.
     
  3. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Interesting question.

    I agree that it has nothing to do with the Mosaic Covenant. More likely it refers to the knowledge of right and wrong written in our hearts and conscience, and those that are lawless are those whose hearts and consciousness have hardened to the point that good is evil and evil is good to them.

    Another consideration, not likely correct, but good for food for thought, is the idea of outlaw. An outlaw is not just a criminal, but one who has been so bad that they are not afforded the rights and protections of the law.

    So, in the wild west, outlaws were fair game. Anyone could catch them and hang them for they were deprived of due process and trial by jury.
     
  4. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla ❣️ His little lady ❣️ Supporter

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    Lawlessness is the result of rebellion. It is a rejection of God and sin is the outcome. This leads to an unwillingness to heed authority or be subject to it. The end result is disorder, unruliness, chaos and oppression.
     
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  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Yeah, but, it's not supposed to be that obvious...? it's supposed to be much more slick and much more deceptive than that...? even capable of deceiving even some of the elect maybe...?

    Hence the "mystery" of it etc...

    Not supposed to be easy to uncover or discern...?

    The man of lawlessness being revealed etc, and their false religious system in end times, etc...?

    God Bless!
     
  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    The word "law" when used in the NT is a translation for the Greek "nomos." That in turn is a translation of the Hebrew "Torah." Indeed, when "law" appears in the OT it usually is in place of "Torah." Torah is the first 5 books of the OT, and not only means law, but also means instruction or teaching.

    So where "lawlessness" appears in the NT, it could very easily be understood as "Torah-lessness." Or Rejecting God's written instructions and teachings. (and very specifically the books of Moses)

    Kinda makes you wonder about those christian groups who totally reject the instructions in the OT.
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    So all sin and sinners are lawless ones...?

    And if that's not the case, in all and every single case, could you elaborate or explain a bit maybe...?
     
  8. Christ is Lord

    Christ is Lord Active Member

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    It should be noted that while law is indeed translated as "nomos" which can refer to the "Torah" that's not always the case. For example, in Romans "law" doesn't always refer to "Torah".
     
  9. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is OT law but it isn't about anyone keeping it perfectly.

    Throughout the NT we see people called lawless... this isn't civil law, secular law... it is about following God's will. "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Iniquity... anomia... without law...lawless. One not willing to follow God's instructions on how to walk out your life.

    Again.. this isn't about being perfect, this is about an INTENT to be perfect... SEEKING righteousness. But we will falter from time to time... that is why Yeshua did what he did for us. Not to deliver us from God's commandments... but rather... to deliver us from our fallibility that ends in death.
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    If you do not or cannot perfectly obey them and obey them all, are you "lawless" then...?

    And if not, could you explain a bit maybe...?
     
  11. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would disagree with one notion. While WE call the first 5 books the law... the law is actually the commandments itself. Moses wrote the law... but he didn't even write all of Deuteronomy as he didn't record his own death. As for Genesis, it is more likely somebody like Shem, who had access to people who walked with Adam, wrote about our history. Calling the first 5 books "the law" is more cultural. I have no issue with it... but it is cultural. The "law" the Torah... is the collection of commandments, judgements, etc.
     
  12. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    The idea of keeping all the OT commands perfectly was a Pharisaic myth. So why does christianity believe that?

    You are NOT lawless or Torah-less if your heart is to obey.
     
  13. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    We call the first 5 "Torah." period.
    Which is why "Torah" meaning teaching and instruction is a much better way of looking at those books.
     
  14. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Iniquity and impurity and a disregard for the law of God. The Torah or the five books of Moses is refereed to as the Law.

    "3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit" (Romans 8)
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  15. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Bit of history:

    The use (or misuse) of nomos (law) to translate "Torah" (instruction) was the choice of the translators of the Septuagint. IMO it was a poor choice.
     
  16. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?
    Those without the "fear of God".

    It is hand-in-hand with "rebellion" and being what the Bible refers to as "stiff-necked".
     
  17. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Any writing like that would have been stripped away during the 400 years of enslavement in Egypt.

    Moses wrote it from divine revelation.
     
  18. Kris Jordan

    Kris Jordan Member

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    In its simplest terms, lawlessness = sin.
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I described it once like this, having a bow and arrow and aiming for and shooting at a target, and one person maybe saying, "well, if I can't hit the bullseye perfectly every single time I try, then I'm not even going to try or practice at it (righteousness) at all then..."

    And how foolish is that...?

    Now I understand people getting down or depressed or discouraged, but you can still at least practice right, and get back up, and get to where you can hit the target at least right, and with practice and with time and with trying to hit the bullseye, you will get better at it, and improve, right? But and/or also, even the very best of archers don't hit the bullseye all the time and every single time, or split their own arrows in the middle of the bullseye every single time...

    No reason to just quit and not even try, and the "instructor" is not even basing your performance rating on how well, or not well you do or don't do, but just you willingness to not give up and just try, and get up and keep trying, aiming, practicing, etc... Not grading you on your performance, or comparing your performace to others performances, but just your willingness to not give up and not be a quitter, and your willingness to still keep trying, practicing, etc... Not about how good you do or don't do, or get to be, or don't get to be, etc... He knows how good you can or cannot be already anyway...

    Not a perfect analogy i know, but it's pretty good...

    God Bless!
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Then were all lawless and all doomed.
     
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