Eschatology: The "Left Behind" narrative is unbiblical

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The text, as quoted, states that when Christ comes, He comes to judge, and at that time the dead shall rise to meet Him--with the sound of angelic shout and heavenly trumpet.

"And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever."

The Lord appears, with all the saints and powers of heaven, with the angelic trumpet and declaring that the dead should rise and meet Jesus. The righteous, rising up, meeting Christ, will go on to live forever with the Lord Jesus, while the wicked powers of the Antichrist and all the unrighteous shall perish in fire with the devil.

That's what the text here says.

Taking a sledgehammer and trying to force this square peg into a round hole just ain't gonna work.

-CryptoLutheran

Now I know why you're continually wrong. You're quoting a crackpot.

This is proof of the pre-Trib rapture. Now, prove that it isn't proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Do you see the word "war" above that's a certified form of God's wrath?

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

There you have proof, that the "war" in the 2nd seal is the starting point for God's wrath in the Trib. That seal is opened on day 1 of the Trib. Now, read again 1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

That is proof the pre-Trib rapture will occur. The "wrath to come" begins in the 2nd seal. You can bet that seal is opened on day 1 of the Trib.

 

[tdidymas]

https://o.b5z.net/i/u/2167316/f/Ephraem-OntheLastTimestheAnt.pdf

See the final section (Section 10).

-CryptoLutheran

Ok, I can see where you got the quote, but can I take it that your silence about the pre-tribber point is consent? That the pre-trib idea actually does go back to the 4th Century?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ok, I can see where you got the quote, but can I take it that your silence about the pre-tribber point is consent? That the pre-trib idea actually does go back to the 4th Century?

No, I don't think it does. I don't think we can see the "pre-trib idea" until John Darby. The idea that Christians will, en masse, be removed from the world prior to tribulation is a unique and peculiar doctrine that emerged with Darby and his theological system called Dispensationalism. In Darby's time, these ideas were condemned by leading theologians and churchmen. Over time these ideas became more popular as Dispensationalists founded schools and published these ideas in books and in a very popular reference Bible (Scofield Reference Bible) which led to generations of Christians being exposed to them, and clergy being trained in schools which taught them, and by the late 20th century these ideas had gained enough popular support within Evangelicalism that it started to become more common. Though, on the whole, has still never been accepted by traditionalists who retain historic and confessional teachings on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is proof of the pre-Trib rapture. Now, prove that it isn't proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

In Christ we are not destined for the wrath of God's judgment, but have been justified by grace and shall pass through judgment and death to life everlasting; having received these things as pure gift and mercy from God in Jesus Christ who has made satisfaction for us.

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--but God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from wrath. For if while we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." - Romans 5:6-11

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son also to have life in Himself. And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." - John 5:24-29

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Do you see the word "war" above that's a certified form of God's wrath?

The judgments mentioned in 12-23 are conditional upon the following, it is a conditional judgment.

"Then certain of the elders of Israel came to me and sat before me. And the word of the Lord came to me: 'Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and set the stumbling block of their iniquity before their faces. Should I indeed let Myself be consulted by them? Therefore speak to them and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Any one of the house of Israel who takes his idols into his heart and sets the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to the prophet, I the Lord will answer him as he comes with the multitude of his idols, that I may lay hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, who are all estranged from Me through their idols.

Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: Repent and turn away from your idols, and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel, who separates himself from Me, taking his idols into his heart and putting the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to a prophet to consult Me through him, I the Lord will answer him Myself. And I will set My face against that man; I will make him a sign and a byword and cut him off from the midst of My people, and you shall know that I am the Lord. And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived the prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel. And they shall bear their punishment--the punishment of the prophet and the punishment of the inquirer shall be alike--that the house of Israel may no more go astray from Me, nor defile themselves anymore with all their transgressions, but that they may be My people and I may be their God, declares the Lord God.'" - Ezekiel 14:1-11

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

There you have proof, that the "war" in the 2nd seal is the starting point for God's wrath in the Trib. That seal is opened on day 1 of the Trib. Now, read again 1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

No, you've offered proof of nothing except that you don't consider context and broader biblical themes.

The four horsement represent conquest, war, pestilence, and death. It's your opinion that this refers to a specific kind of war I suppose, but that isn't evident from the text.

I'd argue that the four horsemen are symbols of these things: Conquest brings war, war brings pestilence, these bring death (and the grave, Hades, is not far behind). This is the story that has played out time and again throughout the history of this fallen and broken world.

This isn't a future war, this is war--which has been raging in the world since Cain slaughtered Abel. When men fight against men, it brings disasters; this is the way it has always been.

The only One who will bring an end to these things is Christ, who shall end our ceaseless strife, and bear His kingdom of peace upon the world when He comes, and God makes all things new.

That is proof the pre-Trib rapture will occur. The "wrath to come" begins in the 2nd seal. You can bet that seal is opened on day 1 of the Trib.

I know what your opinion is, but nothing you've quoted from Scripture backs up your opinion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Now I know why you're continually wrong. You're quoting a crackpot.

I'm quoting an anonymous work attributed to St. Ephraem the Syrian (but is, in fact, a later work); and I was quoting it because another poster brought the work up earlier because Pre-Trib apologists often appeal to the text for defense of their doctrine. My use of the text was purely within that context.

I don't consider the text authoritative. I merely was correcting a common misnomer that the text is evidence of Christians believing in a pre-trib rapture in earlier generations (they didn't, pretribulationism is a modern theological fiction).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

What's made up?

You claimed there was a fraudulent letter. Paul didn't say that, Paul is concerned with any potential source of false doctrine. You've made up that there was a fraudulent letter.

You made up the fact that the translators of the KJV changed the meaning of apostasia, they did not.

You are continually appealing to conspiracy theories and nonsense to defend your position. That makes your position even less credible.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Ok, I can see where you got the quote, but can I take it that your silence about the pre-tribber point is consent? That the pre-trib idea actually does go back to the 4th Century?

No. Apostle Paul first introduced the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What are some certified examples of God's wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Please note that "war" can be a certified form of God's wrath (one of the "dreadful punishments").

In the Trib, the 2nd seal is opened in Rev 6:3. It's devastating effects are described in Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

So, there you now see that God's wrath, in the Trib, begins no later than the 2nd seal, which is sure to be opened on day 1. This is precisely what Paul was writing about in 1 Th 1:10.

 

[tdidymas]

No, I don't think it does. I don't think we can see the "pre-trib idea" until John Darby. The idea that Christians will, en masse, be removed from the world prior to tribulation is a unique and peculiar doctrine that emerged with Darby and his theological system called Dispensationalism. In Darby's time, these ideas were condemned by leading theologians and churchmen. Over time these ideas became more popular as Dispensationalists founded schools and published these ideas in books and in a very popular reference Bible (Scofield Reference Bible) which led to generations of Christians being exposed to them, and clergy being trained in schools which taught them, and by the late 20th century these ideas had gained enough popular support within Evangelicalism that it started to become more common. Though, on the whole, has still never been accepted by traditionalists who retain historic and confessional teachings on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't need a rehash of history of the pre-trib doctrine. I'm just wondering if you actually see the point. If you don't think that the pre-trib idea is in the pseudo-Ephraim document, then what do you make of the quote?

"So we have a passage, appearing in two Latin authors, which says that before the Tribulation, the elect are gathered together and taken away by the Lord."

The quote is from the link you provided. It looks like "the elect are gathered together and taken away" - rapture, "before the Tribulation" - prior to the Great Tribulation. This is clearly a pre-trib idea the way I read it. How else could it be read?

 

[tdidymas]

No. Apostle Paul first introduced the pre-Trib timing of the rapture in 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

What are some certified examples of God's wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Please note that "war" can be a certified form of God's wrath (one of the "dreadful punishments").

In the Trib, the 2nd seal is opened in Rev 6:3. It's devastating effects are described in Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

So, there you now see that God's wrath, in the Trib, begins no later than the 2nd seal, which is sure to be opened on day 1. This is precisely what Paul was writing about in 1 Th 1:10.

I don't agree with you. All I see is your pre-trib idea imposed on verses of scripture taken out of context. 1 Thes. 1:10 is about the gospel and eternal life, escaping the wrath of God at the Great White Throne judgment (based on contextual reading), not about "the Great Tribulation." If you can't give me a clear exegesis of the scripture and how you come to your conclusions, I will continue to deem that your pre-trib theory is mere conjecture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't agree with you. All I see is your pre-trib idea imposed on verses of scripture taken out of context. 1 Thes. 1:10 is about the gospel and eternal life, escaping the wrath of God at the Great White Throne judgment (based on contextual reading), not about "the Great Tribulation." If you can't give me a clear exegesis of the scripture and how you come to your conclusions, I will continue to deem that your pre-trib theory is mere conjecture.

The pre-Trib rapture is in early Bibles, such as the Geneva Bible (below). But, you have to read the 2nd paragraph below to know why what is specifically stated in those verses. Do you know that 2 Th 2:3 never had any word related to "falling away" until the KJV used "falling away" in verse 3 in 1611? The first KJV Bible used "falling away" for the first time, in verse 3, in 1611. You may not know this either: KJV would never say why they made this sea change in verse 3 by using "falling away." They still won't answer for it. I know, because I've tried. I can prove they've dodged this question since 1611, when inquiry minds wanted to know why such a drastic change was made in verse 3. The original word in the Greek verse 3 translates to "apostasia." It has five definitions. The top two definitions to "apostasia" are (1) defection/revolt; and (2) departure/disappearance. There you have two definitions for spiritual departure (as in falling away) in definition (1); and physical departure (like a rapture) as in definition (2).

When you know those things, reading 2 Th 2:1-3 can begin to make sense. What else you need to know is what motivated Paul to even write those three verses. Paul's flock received a fraudulent letter, made to look like it was from Paul, that said they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. When you know that much (which is all in those three verses), you will properly understand those verses. So, in verse 1, Paul raised the topic of the rapture. In verse 2, he said not to be deceived by certain things, such as a fraudulent letter made to look like it came from Paul, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord (Trib). In verse 3, Paul corrects that deception that tricked his flock. The verses from early Bibles that say these exact things, are below. The three verses below are all from early English Bibles. They are like the original English versions of 2 Th 2:1-3:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Notice in verse 3, the word "departing" is used. In the definitions above for "apostasia," only definition (2) fits because "departing "in Greek means physically departing, as in a rapture. That is what Paul was actually teaching in 2 Th 2:1-3. He needed to address the topic of the rapture (verse 1). And to address the deception from a fraudulent letter made to look like it came from Paul (verse 2). To put this matte to rest, that day (Day of the Lord --- Trib) will not come, except there come a departing (a physical departing) first, ...

Paul, who wrote earlier about the rapture in 1 Th 4:16-17, would only mean in 2 Th 2:3, that the rapture will happen first, before the Trib. Therefore, the pre-Trib timing of the rapture is factually in early bibles.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't need a rehash of history of the pre-trib doctrine. I'm just wondering if you actually see the point. If you don't think that the pre-trib idea is in the pseudo-Ephraim document, then what do you make of the quote?

That it's being misread and misunderstood by pre-trib proponents.

The quote is from the link you provided. It looks like "the elect are gathered together and taken away" - rapture, "before the Tribulation" - prior to the Great Tribulation. This is clearly a pre-trib idea the way I read it. How else could it be read?

It can read that way if one presupposes a pre-trib idea, but that reading is directly contradicted by later in the text. It can, therefore, simply mean divine protection of some kind. Not a gathering up into heaven, but a gathering together in the sense of divine protection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tdidymas]

The pre-Trib rapture is in early Bibles, such as the Geneva Bible (below). But, you have to read the 2nd paragraph below to know why what is specifically stated in those verses. Do you know that 2 Th 2:3 never had any word related to "falling away" until the KJV used "falling away" in verse 3 in 1611? The first KJV Bible used "falling away" for the first time, in verse 3, in 1611. You may not know this either: KJV would never say why they made this sea change in verse 3 by using "falling away." They still won't answer for it. I know, because I've tried. I can prove they've dodged this question since 1611, when inquiry minds wanted to know why such a drastic change was made in verse 3. The original word in the Greek verse 3 translates to "apostasia." It has five definitions. The top two definitions to "apostasia" are (1) defection/revolt; and (2) departure/disappearance. There you have two definitions for spiritual departure (as in falling away) in definition (1); and physical departure (like a rapture) as in definition (2).

When you know those things, reading 2 Th 2:1-3 can begin to make sense. What else you need to know is what motivated Paul to even write those three verses. Paul's flock received a fraudulent letter, made to look like it was from Paul, that said they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. When you know that much (which is all in those three verses), you will properly understand those verses. So, in verse 1, Paul raised the topic of the rapture. In verse 2, he said not to be deceived by certain things, such as a fraudulent letter made to look like it came from Paul, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord (Trib). In verse 3, Paul corrects that deception that tricked his flock. The verses from early Bibles that say these exact things, are below. The three verses below are all from early English Bibles. They are like the original English versions of 2 Th 2:1-3:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Notice in verse 3, the word "departing" is used. In the definitions above for "apostasia," only definition (2) fits because "departing "in Greek means physically departing, as in a rapture. That is what Paul was actually teaching in 2 Th 2:1-3. He needed to address the topic of the rapture (verse 1). And to address the deception from a fraudulent letter made to look like it came from Paul (verse 2). To put this matte to rest, that day (Day of the Lord --- Trib) will not come, except there come a departing (a physical departing) first, ...

Paul, who wrote earlier about the rapture in 1 Th 4:16-17, would only mean in 2 Th 2:3, that the rapture will happen first, before the Trib. Therefore, the pre-Trib timing of the rapture is factually in early bibles.

Do you have Alzheimer's? I refuted all this days ago.

 

[tdidymas]

That it's being misread and misunderstood by pre-trib proponents.



It can read that way if one presupposes a pre-trib idea, but that reading is directly contradicted by later in the text. It can, therefore, simply mean divine protection of some kind. Not a gathering up into heaven, but a gathering together in the sense of divine protection.

-CryptoLutheran

You need to give me some substance here, not merely an opinion. And we're talking about the text of the initial link you provided, right? Can you show me where in that text that leads you to your conclusion (and not some other text)? Can you give a quote?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Do you have Alzheimer's? I refuted all this days ago.

Nothing is refuted by you. I am quoting early Bibles. Apostle Paul taught the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 2 Th 2:1-3. Jesus taught the pre-Trib rapture in Rev 3:10 and John 14:2-3. You cannot refute those verses being directly about the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[tdidymas]

Nothing is refuted by you. I am quoting early Bibles. Apostle Paul taught the pre-Trib rapture in 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 2 Th 2:1-3. Jesus taught the pre-Trib rapture in Rev 3:10 and John 14:2-3. You cannot refute those verses being directly about the pre-Trib rapture.

Example: according to the context of the Geneva Bible you quoted, "departing" means departing from The Faith (apostasy). So then, all other translations that render it "apostasy", "falling away", etc. are correct. It's your interpretation that is wrong. Your problem is that you read scripture with an agenda, and are not paying attention to the context of it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You need to give me some substance here, not merely an opinion. And we're talking about the text of the initial link you provided, right? Can you show me where in that text that leads you to your conclusion (and not some other text)? Can you give a quote?

Best I can offer is comparative language to other somewhat contemporary texts indicating shared ways of thinking,

The following comes from a 3rd-5th century Coptic text called the Apocalypse of Elijah,

"On that day the Christ will pity those who are His own. And He will send from heaven His sixty-four thousand angels, each of whom has six wings. The sound will move heaven and earth when they give praise and glorify. Now those upon whose forehead the name of Christ is written and upon whose hand is the seal both the small and the great, will be taken upon their wings and lifted up before His wrath. Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments ... and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them. And on that day the earth will be disturbed, and the sun will darken, and peace will be removed from the earth. The birds will fall on the earth dead. The earth will be dry. The waters of the sea will dry up." - Apocalypse of Elijah 5:2-9

It describes angels gathering Christians into a place called the holy land, quite possibly meant literally in some way, as they are guarded and protected by God's angels against the "son of lawlessness", who is clearly an antichrist figure of some kind.

Note that it is not Jesus taking Christians up into heaven; but a gathering of Christians together by angels to a place and given divine protection.

Compare this with the passage in Pseudo-Ephraem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Example: according to the context of the Geneva Bible you quoted, "departing" means departing from The Faith (apostasy). So then, all other translations that render it "apostasy", "falling away", etc. are correct. It's your interpretation that is wrong. Your problem is that you read scripture with an agenda, and are not paying attention to the context of it.

Do you know that 2 Th 2:3 never had any word related to "falling away" until the KJV used "falling away" in verse 3 in 1611? The first KJV Bible used "falling away" for the first time, in verse 3, in 1611. You may not know this either: KJV would never say why they made this sea change in verse 3 by using "falling away." They still won't answer for it. I know, because I've tried. I can prove they've dodged this question since 1611, when inquiry minds wanted to know why such a drastic change was made in verse 3. The original word in the Greek verse 3 translates to "apostasia." It has five definitions. The top two definitions to "apostasia" are (1) defection/revolt; and (2) departure/disappearance. There you have two definitions for spiritual departure (as in falling away) in definition (1); and physical departure (like a rapture) as in definition (2).

When you know those things, reading 2 Th 2:1-3 can begin to make sense. What else you need to know is what motivated Paul to even write those three verses.

This is all borne out in the verses below: Paul's flock received a fraudulent letter, made to look like it was from Paul, that said they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. When you know that much, you will properly understand those verses. So, in verse 1, Paul raised the topic of the rapture. In verse 2, he said not to be deceived by certain things, such as a fraudulent letter made to look like it came from Paul, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord (Trib). In verse 3, Paul corrects that deception that tricked his flock. The verses from early Bibles that say these exact things, are below. The three verses below are all from early Bibles. They are the original English versions of 2 Th 2:1-3:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

 

[tdidymas]

Best I can offer is comparative language to other somewhat contemporary texts indicating shared ways of thinking,

The following comes from a 3rd-5th century Coptic text called the Apocalypse of Elijah,

"On that day the Christ will pity those who are His own. And He will send from heaven His sixty-four thousand angels, each of whom has six wings. The sound will move heaven and earth when they give praise and glorify. Now those upon whose forehead the name of Christ is written and upon whose hand is the seal both the small and the great, will be taken upon their wings and lifted up before His wrath. Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments ... and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them. And on that day the earth will be disturbed, and the sun will darken, and peace will be removed from the earth. The birds will fall on the earth dead. The earth will be dry. The waters of the sea will dry up." - Apocalypse of Elijah 5:2-9

It describes angels gathering Christians into a place called the holy land, quite possibly meant literally in some way, as they are guarded and protected by God's angels against the "son of lawlessness", who is clearly an antichrist figure of some kind.

Note that it is not Jesus taking Christians up into heaven; but a gathering of Christians together by angels to a place and given divine protection.

Compare this with the passage in Pseudo-Ephraem.

-CryptoLutheran

If this is the best you can do, then I'm far from convinced of your conclusion. You said that further in the text of your 1st link provided that it contradicted the pre-trib idea, but now you are implying it doesn't, and so you're bringing in other writings to impose on it. I think your link contradicted your initial statement about the idea not showing up until the 1800s, and you're doing everything you can think of to deny it. If you just admitted it was a mistake, and that you were wrong about that particular issue, I would listening to you and paying attention to the rest of your teaching. But now I see egg on your face, and you won't admit it. I think this little "dance" we had speaks volumes about why I shouldn't pay attention to you any more. Can we then agree to disagree?

 

[tdidymas]

Do you know that 2 Th 2:3 never had any word related to "falling away" until the KJV used "falling away" in verse 3 in 1611? The first KJV Bible used "falling away" for the first time, in verse 3, in 1611. You may not know this either: KJV would never say why they made this sea change in verse 3 by using "falling away." They still won't answer for it. I know, because I've tried. I can prove they've dodged this question since 1611, when inquiry minds wanted to know why such a drastic change was made in verse 3. The original word in the Greek verse 3 translates to "apostasia." It has five definitions. The top two definitions to "apostasia" are (1) defection/revolt; and (2) departure/disappearance. There you have two definitions for spiritual departure (as in falling away) in definition (1); and physical departure (like a rapture) as in definition (2).

Where are you getting your definitions? Your def (2) does not appear in any lexicon I have. This is what Thayer's has:

ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ([Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19]; Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:32 (Jeremiah 29:32) Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15).

It appears to me you are imposing a def. of a word that doesn't fit the context. All the commentaries I have say it means defection from the faith. I trust more what they say than what you say.

When you know those things, reading 2 Th 2:1-3 can begin to make sense. What else you need to know is what motivated Paul to even write those three verses.

This is all borne out in the verses below: Paul's flock received a fraudulent letter, made to look like it was from Paul, that said they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. When you know that much, you will properly understand those verses. So, in verse 1, Paul raised the topic of the rapture. In verse 2, he said not to be deceived by certain things, such as a fraudulent letter made to look like it came from Paul, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Day of the Lord (Trib). In verse 3, Paul corrects that deception that tricked his flock. The verses from early Bibles that say these exact things, are below. The three verses below are all from early Bibles. They are the original English versions of 2 Th 2:1-3:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Again, all I see is opinion based on a bad interpretation of the text. All the Biblical texts show the Thayer's def. when the context is examined.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Where are you getting your definitions? Your def (2) does not appear in any lexicon I have. This is what Thayer's has:

It appears to me you are imposing a def. of a word that doesn't fit the context. All the commentaries I have say it means defection from the faith. I trust more what they say than what you say.

Again, all I see is opinion based on a bad interpretation of the text. All the Biblical texts show the Thayer's def. when the context is exApostasy in the Church

Charles C. Ryrie​

Where are you getting your definitions? Your def (2) does not appear in any lexicon I have. This is what Thayer's has:

It appears to me you are imposing a def. of a word that doesn't fit the context. All the commentaries I have say it means defection from the faith. I trust more what they say than what you say.

Again, all I see is opinion based on a bad interpretation of the text. All the Biblical texts show the Thayer's def. when the context is examined.

The Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon carries two definitions for "apostasia." You can easily find out about this very acclaimed lexicon on the internet. In this very acclaimed lexicon are apostasia's top-two definitions: definition #1 is "defection; revolt," and definition #2 is "departure; disappearance." "Departure" in Greek relates to physical departure or in English, disappearance. Therefore, it fits if describing what occurs in the rapture. Those same two definitions for apostasia appear in various articles, always citing Liddell & Scott.

I'm not making up anything about 2 Th 2:1-3. The early Bibles say (see at bottom) what I am trying to get you to understand. 2 Th 2:1 merely raises the topic of the rapture. Paul needed to address the rapture because he got word that his Thessalonian flock had received a fraudulent letter, made to appear to be from him, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. All that is directly or indirectly in 2 Th 2:2-3. I am not making anything up. In verse 3, Paul corrects his flock: "That day" (referring to verse 2's "Day of the Lord") will not come as the apostasia comes first. In this context of rapture, only definition #2 of apostasia fits.

Recap: in verse 1, Paul cites the rapture, therefore the context is rapture. In verse 2 and in early verse 3, he acknowledges the deception suffered by his flock. In the rest of verse 3, he says the Trib (Day of the Lord) won't come as the apostasia (departure; disappearance) comes first. We know it's definition #2 of apostasia because the context is rapture.

Here are three verses from early Bibles, covering 2 Th 2:1-3. They say what I claim about them. I am not making anything up.

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

This is a verse that was written about what happened in Thessalonica after Paul left, after teaching about the rapture (1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 4:16-17). This is what led to the fraudulent letter being sent to Paul's Thessalonian flock: Acts 17:5 (NIV): But other Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason’s house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.