What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[Jonathan_Gale]

Your view is that these "took the seal".
But all we are told is that they were sealed.

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:3)

Eventually, they end up as constituents of the New Jerusalem, over the gates of which are written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
And on her foundations the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. They arrive at one destiny ultimately.

Rejecting the mark is effectively taking the seal, and vice versa. There will be no middle ground. For now there is, in the parable of the sower, only the stony soil is a lost cause, the shallow soil and the thorny soil are the middle ground, those yet have the potential to be saved. In the GT there's no more middle ground, you either take the mark or take the seal.

 

[oikonomia]

I just don’t see the point in this discussion about the OT saints.

I didn't say the 144,000 are "Old Testament saints." I believe they are living in "New Testament times."
I think I did say that Revelation is a finale or climax of all promises of God in previous eras.

A simple reading about the “key of Hades”, “key of death”, “key of David” can tell you the answer - Jesus went down to Hades and set the OT saints free, once and for all. The others whom he didn’t set free were locked in there waiting for the white throne judgement. That’s the message in Rev. 3:7.

I do not think "the key of David" given to the overcoming ones of the church in Philadelphia is related to Jesus
going to Hades.

I believe it refers to the key to the next age of the millennial kingdom.
Of course for the church to change the age and bring in the millennial kingdom she has to prevail against
all kinds of death.

Christ shuts the gates of Hades that death of all kinds cannot come out to damage the church.
And Christ opens the door to the next age of the kingdom which no opposer is able to shut.

I know your works; behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:8)

The church there is not of super spiritual giants mighty in power.
because you have a little power

Rather they have the most essential element of brotherly love for one another - Philadelphia (brotherly love).

While many Christians await a mighty power display of spiritual giants in the last days,
ironically the Lord looks rather for mutual love among the saints for each other and taking up
no other name but His name.
have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:8)

Christians are divided this way and that way with malice towards one another and champion names
other than the Lord Jesus- various "isms" and servants of God who were useful but should not replace the ONE name - Jesus.

Before such a church of love God has opened a door into the next kingdom age.
They may go through the door. And no opposers are able to shut it to them.

Briefly, the book of Isaiah speaks of a incompetent priest who was fired. (Shebna)
He was replaced by a faithful priest upon whose shoulder God placed the key of David. Refer to Isaiah 22:19-25.

And I will drive you from your position, / And from your standing He will pull you down. (Isa. 22:19)
The failed steward Shebna God will dismiss for incompetence.

And in that day / I will call to My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, (v.20)
He will be replaed by a faithful priest Eliakim a type of Christ.

And I will clothe him with your tunic, / And I will strengthen him with your girding sash, / And I will put your dominion into his hand; / And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem / And to the house of Judah. (v.21)
Eliakim(edited) will be and do with faithfulness all that the replaced Shebna was a failure at. This is type of Christ.

And I will set the key of the house of David upon his shoulder — / When he opens, no one will shut; / When he shuts, no one will open.(v.22)
As a type of Christ he has authority to bind and loose, to open and the close no one able to resist his authority.

And I will drive him as a peg into a sure place, / And he will become a throne of glory for his father’s house. (v.23)
This probably refers to Christ the Faithful Priest being crucified. Eliakim (edited) is a type of Christ.
Christ being driven as an eternal unmovable peg by His crucifixion

And they will hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all the smallest vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.(v.24)
Everything and everyone of all into whom God will dispense His life and nature will HANG and DEPEND on this faithful Priest.

In that day, declares Jehovah of hosts, the peg driven into the sure place will be removed, even cut away, and it will fall; and the burden that was upon it will be cut down; for Jehovah has spoken.(v.25)
As Eliakim is a type of Christ I believe this speaks of the sovereign reality that such a servant of God will be crucified, killed, seeming to have failed though He is so godly, chosen, true. This matches the execution of the Son of God which none of His disciples understood at first. To them everything had collapsed and fallen apart with the death of Jesus.

But contrary to human expectation His death was like the driving of a immovable peg.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ,
this Jesus whom you have crucified. (Acts 2:36)

The church steeped in brotherly love receives this authority to bind and loose for oneness with Christ.
And the open door into the kingdom age is theirs. No religionists or forces of death will be able to shut
that door before them though they in themselves have little power.

Their power is in their endurance, faithfulness to the one name, and love for one another.
See First Corinthians chapter 13.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I didn't say the 144,000 are "Old Testament saints." I believe they are living in "New Testament times."
I think I did say that Revelation is a finale or climax of all promises of God in previous eras.

Neither did it. Those were assimilated into the 12 triebs, it's not based on ethnicity, God is not ethno centric.

I do not think "the key of David" given to the overcoming ones of the church in Philadelphia is related to Jesus
going to Hades.

I believe it refers to the key to the next age of the millennial kingdom.
Of course for the church to change the age and bring in the millennial kingdom she has to prevail against
all kinds of death.

Christ shuts the gates of Hades that death of all kinds cannot come out to damage the church.
And Christ opens the door to the next age of the kingdom which no opposer is able to shut.

Yeah, just like the parable of the 10 virgins, this is another way of reading it. But He did go down to Hades, to set the captives free and to suppress the evil spirits, that's how He conquered death.

 

[oikonomia]

Thanks for your compliment. Why not just stick very closely to what is written?

Where did I depart from what is written?

They are sealed for their protection, and in particular their protection from the Stinging Locusts.

You must refer here to fifth trumpet and the torment on men for five months. Right?

And it was said to them that they should not harm the grass of the earth or any green thing or any tree, but men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. (Rev. 9:4,5)

I do not overlook that. This shows that the 144,000 sealed are protected from this Satanic unleashing of demonic locusts.
It also shows that the men who have the mentioned seal are passing THROUGH the time of the great tribulation.
Thier protection only corresponds to the promise of 7:3.

Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (7:3b)

As you may know the great trbulation is during the last three of the seven trumpets.
Since trumpets five, six, seven are the three remaining woes constituting the great tribulation the sealed 144,000 Israelites must
be on earth during that time.

And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet! (Rev. 8:13)

Perhaps you know? Trumpets one through four are not YET the great tribulation.
Trumpet five (Woe #1), trumpet six (Woe #2), and trumpet seven (Woe #3) constitute the times of the great tribulation.

So the sealed 144,000 are not raptured before the start of the great tribulation.
But I strongly hold that the 144,000 Firstfruits ARE seen in heaven because of rapture BEFORE the start of the great tribulation.

This is then another reason why I teach that the group of chapter 7 is not the same group as in chapter 14.
But why chapter 14:1-5 [Firstfruits in heaven] I am sure are BEFORE the start of the GT I will not develop with you in this post.

Do you know that the days of great tribulation (GT) will not begin until some unknown time after the abomination event that will divide the week, and will certainly not last the entire 3.5 years of the last half of the future 70th week?

I am not sure you understand what is the real CAUSE of the great tribulation.
If you are referring to the abomination of Antichrist and idol being in the temple of God in Jerusalem,
that has to be DURING the 3.5 years of great tribulation not preceeding it.

This is not hard to prove imo. But for length's sake I may explain latter.
The abomination event (if you mean Antichrist and/or an idol in the temple of God) should not be BEFORE the GT but during it.

I believe John makes it clear that the days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until late in chapter 14,

Now if you believe that the GT starts (late in chapter 14) then you realize you move closer to my position that 14:1-5 about the raptured Firstfruits is also BEFORE the GT. This makes my job a little easier.

Actually, after verse 5 comes verse 6,7 -

And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters.

This event (not much latter) signifies the start of the great tribulation.
The "eternal gospel" preached supernaturally from the air is the counter to Antichrist's claim that he is god.
The supernatural warning of "an eternal gospel" is not the same as the gospel of grace preached in the church age by Christians.

Rather it is an eternal gospel that men are without excuse to not recognize that God is the Creator of the universe and not any man.
Look at the contents of said "eternal gospel."

Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (v.7)

In other words - "Earth dwellers you see the calamity in the cosmos, the stars the heavens in upheavel. Know that only God the Creator
could do these things not some man proclaiming himself to be god."

That is the jist of the "eternal gospel". I like to compare it to Romans 1:18-20 -

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold down the truth in unrighteousness, Because that which is known of God is manifest within them, for God manifested it to them.
For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse;

Anyway this eternal gospel of God the Creator about to come for judgment is announced supernaturally by an angel in the air.
Its purpose in those extraordinary times is to give some people on earth a counter balance against Antichrist and his False Prophet's
extraordinary claims and deception.

And some earth dwellers WILL heed this eternal gospel and be spared to be transferred into the millennial kingdom age.

The final 1260 days will certainly take place, but they will not all be days of GT. They will just be dark days of dread, as people sit in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain, and wonder what God will do next.

I would probably attempt to persuade you that the 1,260 days are exactly the time of the GREAT tribulation.
But calamities on earth (ie. trumpets 1 - 4) are before the great tribulation of 3.5 years (1,260 days) by Hebrew calender of a year.

There is another evidence that Rev. 14:7 ON through the rest of the chapter are about the great tribulation.
The Firstfruits seen in heaven are therefore pre-great tribulation Christians who are living on earth at that time.

Bottom line here:
The sealed 144,000 Israelites (chapter 7) are preserved THROUGH the GT.
The raptured 144,000 Firstfruits are raptured PRIOR to the GT.
So they are not the same group.
What IS the same is God's unfailing faithfulness in each case.

For the most part, the book of Revelation is a Jewish book for the Jewish people. It is THEIR 70th week which goes in the book from chapter 8 to chapter 16. Then the next two chapters show the destruction of Jerusalem, the "great city." Then in chapter 19, Jesus returns TO Jerusalem. It is a Jewish book. However, God in HIs great mercy allowed John to see the just raptured church in heaven, before the start of the 70th week at the 7th seal. Father God, thanks for this picture of you keeping the church out of your Wrath!

The letters are to the seven churches.

What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches: (Rev. 1:11a)

So I would have a problem with saying Revelation is primarily a communication to the Jews.
Of course the church is the one new man where the dividing wall has been broken down between Jew and Gentile.

The book of Revelation says also up front it is for Christ servants. That could not possibly put Christians as a secondary audience.

The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John, (Rev. 1:1)

Your thoughts on this?

 

[oikonomia]

A few posters keep speaking to me of Jesus leading OT or other people to heaven.
Can someone show me even one unambiguous Bible passage which shows there are people in heaven today?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

A few posters keep speaking to me of Jesus leading OT or other people to heaven.
Can someone show me even one unambiguous Bible passage which shows there are people in heaven today?

Only in Hades, till the fullness of the gentiles.

 

[oikonomia]

Here a poster offers a worthy prayer thanking God for protection of the church from the times of the great tribulation.

Father God, thanks for this picture of you keeping the church out of your Wrath!

I say "Amen!" to such a thanksgiving. May the Lord do so.
However, that does not mean that the greater part of the church will not be on earth through the GT.

 

[oikonomia]

Only in Hades, till the fullness of the gentiles.

You're up tonight to like me?
I am on the east coast of the US.

Anyway, I cannot locate a Bible verse so clearly and unabiguously stating that
there are any people living in heaven even from the resurrection of Jesus.

I can offer reasons why it is unlikely that before the transfiguration of the bodies of resurrected believers,
they would want to be in Heaven OR God would want them there.

I don't understand why some Christians seem so sure that any resurrected when Jesus rose
were taken with Him to the third heaven in His ascension.

Yes, some OT saints are said to have appeared in the city at Christ's resurrection.
As to where they went afterward ?
It seems to be none of our business. We are not told anywhere.

I would put this mystery likely under the following exhortation -

The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29)

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You're up tonight to like me?
I am on the east coast of the US.

No, I'm up in broad daylight on the other side of the planet. The wages of sin is death, the wages of sleep deprivation is early death, I've learned my lesson in the hard way, now I try to get enough quality sleep on bed as much as I can, never burning night oil ever again.

Anyway, I cannot locate a Bible verse so clearly and unabiguously stating that
there are any people living in heaven even from the resurrection of Jesus.

I can offer reasons why it is unlikely that before the transfiguration of the bodies of resurrected believers,
they would want to be in Heaven OR God would want them there.

I don't understand why some Christians seem so sure that any resurrected when Jesus rose
were taken with Him to the third heaven in His ascension.

Yes, some OT saints are said to have appeared in the city at Christ's resurrection.
As to where they went afterward ?
It seems to be none of our business. We are not told anywhere.

Resurrection is a sure thing, it's in the prophecy, specifically Dan. 12:1-2

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So all will rise from the dead, but only those whose name are found in the Book of Life will inherit the kingdom, others cast into the lake of fire.

 

[oikonomia]

Rejecting the mark is effectively taking the seal, and vice versa.

But the mark of the beast is an issue after the start of the 3.5 last years.
The 144,000 are sealed before it starts.

There will be no middle ground. For now there is, in the parable of the sower, only the stony soil is a lost cause, the shallow soil and the thorny soil are the middle ground, those yet have the potential to be saved. In the GT there's no more middle ground, you either take the mark or take the seal.

If you believe this then I think you move closer to what I have been saying.

The Firstfruits are mature RIPENED crop of God and reaped before the start of the GT. The Son and the Father are pleased.
The Harvest is ripened THROUGH experiencing the heat of the GT and are reaped at its conclusion. God is faithful to get the rest.

Seperating [edited] inbetween the taking up of the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) and the reaping of the Harvest (Rev. 14:14-16)
is seen the major events of the Antichrist and the great tribulation (Rev. 14:6-13).

The heat of trial and persection is the very factor which hastens the ripeness of the major part of the crop
to dry out of the worldly water and become RIPE for rapture.

The 144,000 sealed Israelites (12,000 each) from the twelve tribes are sealed by God's sovereignty before the judgments are unleashed.

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.
And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:1-3)

Now a quite legitimate question could be asked:
Why is the number 144,000 used for both the sealed Israelites and the raptured Firstfruits?
Of course it must be the same 144,000 people. Right?

My reply would be brief.
The number 144,000 as a great multiple of 12 (perfection in eternity) means two things.

1.) A great perfection according to God's purpose.
2.) A minority, a remnant of the whole of a greater body.

A specific number though large indicates a REMNANT in both cases.
But it is a remnant according to great perfection in God's eternal administration.

 

[oikonomia]

No, I'm up in broad daylight on the other side of the planet. The wages of sin is death, the wages of sleep deprivation is early death, I've learned my lesson in the hard way, now I try to get enough quality sleep on bed as much as I can, never burning night oil ever again.

I retire early and rise early then go back for more sleep.

Resurrection is a sure thing, it's in the prophecy, specifically Dan. 12:1-2

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So all will rise from the dead, but only those whose name are found in the Book of Life will inherit the kingdom, others cast into the lake of fire.

Praise Him for Daniel's clear prophecy.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But the mark of the beast is an issue after the start of the 3.5 last years.
The 144,000 are sealed before it starts.

If you believe this then I think you move closer to what I have been saying.

The Firstfruits are mature RIPENED crop of God and reaped before the start of the GT. The Son and the Father are pleased.
The Harvest is ripened THROUGH experiencing the heat of the GT and are reaped at its conclusion. God is faithful to get the rest.

Seperating [edited] inbetween the taking up of the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) and the reaping of the Harvest (Rev. 14:14-16)
is seen the major events of the Antichrist and the great tribulation (Rev. 14:6-13).

The heat of trial and persection is the very factor which hastens the ripeness of the major part of the crop
to dry out of the worldly water and become RIPE for rapture.

The 144,000 sealed Israelites (12,000 each) from the twelve tribes are sealed by God's sovereignty before the judgments are unleashed.

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.
And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:1-3)

Now a quite legitimate question could be asked:
Why is the number 144,000 used for both the sealed Israelites and the raptured Firstfruits?
Of course it must be the same 144,000 people. Right?

My reply would be brief.
The number 144,000 as a great multiple of 12 (perfection in eternity) means two things.

1.) A great perfection according to God's purpose.
2.) A minority, a remnant of the whole of a greater body.

A specific number though large indicates a REMNANT in both cases.
But it is a remnant according to great perfection in God's eternal administration.

I'm not so sure about the GT timeline, man. Like the other books in the bible, Revelation is not necessarily written strictly in chronological order. The only thing I'm absolutely sure is that the GT only lasts 3.5 years, all five mentions of this time period in Revelation (11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:14, 13:5) are the same time period, it's not the entire church age, and there's no "first half" and "second half", it's just literal 3.5 years, any doctrine that teaches otherwise is dubious. The last five months of the GT is the wrath of God, which only targets those who've taken the mark, which is also repeated multiple times.

Another thing I tend to believe is that the same sequence of end time events is narrated twice from different perspectives, ch. 4-11 is from a heavenly perspective, ch. 13-19 is from an earthly perspective, and ch. 12 is the transition, an interlude. Like many other books in the bible, Revelation is written in a chiastic structure, also known as a "menorah pattern", which means the first half is a mirror image of the second half, the climas is right in the center, therefore in this line of thinking, the 144,000 in ch.7 is a mirror image of the 144,000 in ch. 14.

 

[oikonomia]

I'm not so sure about the GT timeline, man.

We do not know the date of its start. We may know the cause and the major signs of its start.

Like the other books in the bible, Revelation is not necessarily written strictly in chronological order.

That is right. Actually the book of Revelation contains repetitions.
From chapter 12 after the 7th trumpet in chapter 11, there is a revisiting of the previously mentioned events.
So to think you can read right through from chapter 6 to through chapter 22 chronigically will lead to much confusion.

A hint of this is the Angel telling John that he must now prophesy again a second time.
If you need clarification with this I may be able to help.

And they said to me, You must prophesy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. (Rev. 10:11)

The only thing I'm absolutely sure is that the GT only lasts 3.5 years,

I believe this. Though there is tribulation throughout history and it intensifies, the great tribulation during Antichrist is 3.5 years.
Antichrist himself will be alive before that time.
But he is killed and rescusitated with the spirit of Nero from the abyss.

This is important because the two stages of his career will probably be polar opposites.
He arrives as a beautiful smart problem solver who MAY be tremendously popular and hopeful.
Then he is killed, probably assasinated.

Then Satan performs a Satanic miracle mimicking the resurrection of the Son of God.
It is after this Satanic resucitation that he takes on a monsterous and supernatural personality.

So this great world problem solver could come along at any time in the first stage of his career.
He might even be with us today. But I do not know. I don't care much either.
My eyes are on the parousia of Christ more.

all five mentions of this time period in Revelation (11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:14, 13:5) are the same time period, it's not the entire church age,

Yes. That is not the entire church age. And I do not pay attention to Preterist theories that all the events are in the past today.

and there's no "first half" and "second half", it's just literal 3.5 years, any doctrine that teaches otherwise is dubious.

Sorry. It is not dubious to many of us that the 7 weeks of years are divided.
The second half being the 3.5 years of the fake resurrection of Antichrist and the breaking of a peace covenant with Israel.

That would mean that the last seven years of this age before the millennial kingdom is in two halves.

The last five months of the GT is the wrath of God, which only targets those who've taken the mark, which is also repeated multiple times.

Another thing I tend to believe is that the same sequence of end time events is narrated twice from different perspectives, ch. 4-11 is from a heavenly perspective, ch. 13-19 is from an earthly perspective, and ch. 12 is the transition, an interlude. Like many other books in the bible, Revelation is written in a chiastic structure, also known as a "menorah pattern", which means the first half is a mirror image of the second half, the climas is right in the center, therefore in this line of thinking, the 144,000 in ch.7 is a mirror image of the 144,000 in ch. 14.

By indicating this I percieve that we are closer in this kind of understanding.
There are other perculiar things about the structure which you may have noticed.

Ie. Like Russian dolls that you open up and find other dolls inside.
The contents of the seventh seal are seven trumpets.
The contents of the secenth trumpet are seven bowls.

The structure of the book is intricate and certainly unlike any "mad-man's dream."
Like Russian dolls, you open one up and it contains another and so forth.

Each seventh item is a container that holds as its contents seven other items.
The Seventh seal includes the seven trumpets.
The Seventh trumpet includes as its negative contents the seven bowls.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

By indicating this I percieve that we are closer in this kind of understanding.
There are other perculiar things about the structure which you may have noticed.

Ie. Like Russian dolls that you open up and find other dolls inside.
The contents of the seventh seal are seven trumpets.
The contents of the secenth trumpet are seven bowls.

The structure of the book is intricate and certainly unlike any "mad-man's dream."
Like Russian dolls, you open one up and it contains another and so forth.

Each seventh item is a container that holds as its contents seven other items.
The Seventh seal includes the seven trumpets.
The Seventh trumpet includes as its negative contents the seven bowls.

Man, I'm not kidding or making stuffs up, chiasm is a literature style, it's very common in the bible - "first will be last and the last will be first", "those who humble themselves will be exalted, those who exalt themselves will be humbled." Some famous quotes such as "failing to prepare is preparing to fail," "ask what you can do for your country" also follows this ABBA formula. In fact, it's known as the "bookend" technique, and it's very common in modern literature amd movies, where the end circles back right to the beginning. If you take a holistic approach and analyze the book as a whole, it's not that hard to see this structure.

 

[iamlamad]

Where did I depart from what is written?

You wrote the following:
"Verses 1 through 8 assure the seer that THROUGH the 3.5 year great tribulation a remnant of Israelites are assured to be preserved."

"Verses 9 -17 is showing in a general way that through all history's tribulation God will preserve His total elect from eternal judgment."

I believe John tells us that the 144,000 are seen to heaven before the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of begins.

I don't believe "all history" fits the crowd, too large to number. I believe this is the just-raptured church which limits the group to only those who are born again. It is impossible that OT saints were "born again" before they passed. The born again walk was impossible before Christ died and rose again.

Perhaps I did not choose my words carefully when I wrote "depart." Are we adding to what is written? I don't think so. I think we are trying to understand the intent of the Holy Spirit.

 

[iamlamad]

You must refer here to fifth trumpet and the torment on men for five months. Right?

And it was said to them that they should not harm the grass of the earth or any green thing or any tree, but men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. (Rev. 9:4,5)

I do not overlook that. This shows that the 144,000 sealed are protected from this Satanic unleashing of demonic locusts.
It also shows that the men who have the mentioned seal are passing THROUGH the time of the great tribulation.
Thier protection only corresponds to the promise of 7:3.

Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (7:3b)

As you may know the great trbulation is during the last three of the seven trumpets.
Since trumpets five, six, seven are the three remaining woes constituting the great tribulation the sealed 144,000 Israelites must
be on earth during that time.

And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet! (Rev. 8:13)

Perhaps you know? Trumpets one through four are not YET the great tribulation.
Trumpet five (Woe #1), trumpet six (Woe #2), and trumpet seven (Woe #3) constitute the times of the great tribulation.

So the sealed 144,000 are not raptured before the start of the great tribulation.
But I strongly hold that the 144,000 Firstfruits ARE seen in heaven because of rapture BEFORE the start of the great tribulation.

Because John wrote "great tribulation" (GT) twice in his book, and neither one about the days of GT Jesus spoke about, When I refer to the GT Jesus spoke about I always add "that Jesus spoke about."

For example, the "great tribulation" this great crowd came out of is not referring to the days of GT Jesus spoke of. John has not yet started the 70th week, much less has he arrived at the abomination event that will divide the week. Jesus said that the GT He spoke of would not come until after the abomination.

Where then will the days of GT Jesus spoke of begin in Revelation? The pre-wrath card would say "in the seals. They are miles off from the truth. Others would say in the trumpets. They also are far from the truth. Let's ask another question: what will CAUSE those days of GT Jesus spoke of? WHY will those days be worse than any time before or after?

John gives us the answers. People are going to be forced to bow before an image (think Nebuchadnezzar) or lose their heads—or be forced to receive a mark or lose their heads. And this after God sends angels to warn the people of the great danger of receiving this mark. It is because this will be going on over much of planet earth that makes these days of GT Jesus spoke of so difficult.

The Two witnesses will stop all rain. God will turn all the fresh water into blood. Therefore, drinkable water will become almost priceless. GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to take the mark so they can buy water. These events are what will cause the days of GT Jesus spoke of.

People around this planet will be SEARHING for those without the mark, for the purpose of convincing them to take the mark. I believe there will be VERY few places to hide.

WHEN, then, will these days of GT Jesus spoke of begin? Certainly not until God warns the people about what will happen if they take the mark. This warning is in Revelation 14, after the 144,000 are seen in heaven. This is confirmed because the beheaded just begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Therefore, I conclude that the 144,000 will be seals for their protection only during the trumpet judgments that will make up the first half of the future 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

It also shows that the men who have the mentioned seal are passing THROUGH the time of the great tribulation.
...

As you may know the great trbulation is during the last three of the seven trumpets.

Perhaps you know? Trumpets one through four are not YET the great tribulation.
Trumpet five (Woe #1), trumpet six (Woe #2), and trumpet seven (Woe #3) constitute the times of the great tribulation.

I very much disagree with this. The abomination event—without much doubt when the man of sin enters the Holy of Holies in the temple—will be marked in heaven by the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

God marked the entire 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th bowl ends it. Jesus said that the days of GT would not begin until AFTER the abomination. Late in chapter 14 will certainly be "after" the abomination.

The first two woes—the 5th and 6th trumpets—will come late in the first half of the 70th week and certainly before any part of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. The last woe, the 7th trumpet, is not really the trumpet sounding, but what happens AFTER the trumpet has sounded. This 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to to to war with Satan and drive him down from the high places. He is confined to earth VERY ANGRY and he with his great anger that will cause the 3rd woe: the days of GT.

Therefore I must disagree with all your above statements.

 

[iamlamad]

I am not sure you understand what is the real CAUSE of the great tribulation.
If you are referring to the abomination of Antichrist and idol being in the temple of God in Jerusalem,
that has to be DURING the 3.5 years of great tribulation not preceeding it.

This is not hard to prove imo. But for length's sake I may explain latter.
The abomination event (if you mean Antichrist and/or an idol in the temple of God) should not be BEFORE the GT but during it.

Now if you believe that the GT starts (late in chapter 14) then you realize you move closer to my position that 14:1-5 about the raptured Firstfruits is also BEFORE the GT. This makes my job a little easier.

Let's look again at what Jesus said.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation

Which did Jesus mention first: the abomination or the GT? He mentioned the abomination first because that will be the trigger for the days of GT that will follow some unknown time after. (The Beast must be seen rising to power, and the second Beast must show up before the days of GT begin.

Yes, OF COURSE God will catch up the 144,000 firstfruits before the days of GT will begin. The first part of chapter 14 will certainly take place before the angels are sent out with their messages.

"has to be DURING the 3.5 years" WHY?

 

[iamlamad]

Bottom line here:
The sealed 144,000 Israelites (chapter 7) are preserved THROUGH the GT.
The raptured 144,000 Firstfruits are raptured PRIOR to the GT.
So they are not the same group.
What IS the same is God's unfailing faithfulness in each case.

The letters are to the seven churches.

What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches: (Rev. 1:11a)

So I would have a problem with saying Revelation is primarily a communication to the Jews.
Of course the church is the one new man where the dividing wall has been broken down between Jew and Gentile.

The book of Revelation says also up front it is for Christ servants. That could not possibly put Christians as a secondary audience.

The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John, (Rev. 1:1)

Your thoughts on this?

The 144,000 are preserved through the trumpet judgments, NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of.
The 144,000 firstfruits are the same 144,000! And they ARE caught up before the days of GT.
They ARE the same group. Why would you ever imagine otherwise? The entire rest of the church world believes they are the same group.

The seven church were, without a doubt, Jewish churches. The Jewish churches died out and Gentile churches took their place. Paul was sent to the Gentiles while the eleven went to the lost sheep of Israel, John included. Again keep in mind, Daniel said the 70th week was for HIS people, and chapters 8 to 16 are exclusively the 70th week of Daniel. That is over half the book. However, there are verses that certainly fit the church: first the large group too large to number, and the armies of heaven that descend on white horses. Chapters 19 to the end are certainly for all the saints of all time.

Of course the church can make application to verses pointed to the Jews, for it is the same God overall.

 

[iamlamad]

I am surprised at the number of Christian brothers and sisters who have this belief - that Jesus took multitudes with Him to heaven.
If you were to ask me "Where did those saints go who were raised during Jesus's resurrection and appeared in the city?"
I would say "That is completely unknown to me."

We may imagine and speculate. But the account is minimal and left untold on that detail.

The idea comes from this passage:

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

There is a book where someone went to heaven for 40 days while angels watched his body. (Paradise and the Holy City). He was talking with Abraham and asked him why he appeared (looked) so different from many others. Abraham answered that he and some others were blessed to receive their resurrection bodies early, before the general resurrection day.

I believe this story. I believe when Jesus rose, and also resurrected the elders of the Old Testament. Some of them apparently got to walk around a bit and show themselves to others, but perhaps not all of them. I think they all went to heaven as "elders."