What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[Ed Parenteau]

Those "First-fruits of the Spirit" which Paul said that the believers had was the presence of the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints which had remained on earth to build up the early church. It was the work of the Spirit which had redeemed their physical bodies out of the grave. As in Romans 8:11. "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall ALSO quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Any bodily resurrection involves the work of the Spirit to produce that changed body form.

Christ is the resurrection and the life and Christ in you is the hope of glory. John 14:18-24

No, you haven't finished the sentence. "...and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and came out of the grave AFTER His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." We know it was truly AFTER Christ's resurrection when they were raised and came out of their graves, because that is the picture given to us in Revelation 14:14-16. The newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud (of heaven) used a sickle to "reap" the ripened, dried harvest of the earth. No assisting angels, so this can't be the second coming resurrection, but the one on Christ's resurrection-day ascension to heaven. He then returned to earth that day and spent another 40 days among His disciples.

I did finish the sentence, I just divided it along the "day of His death" and the "day of His resurrection". You must have glossed over it as you didn't respond to what I said.
There is no scripture that says He ascended on resurrection day.

These are the same thing. The "First-fruits of the Spirit" were the "First resurrection" event involving Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53, resurrected 144,000 First-fruits raised from the grave that same day as Christ the First-fruits. Paul wrote in Romans 8:23 that the believers still had those First-fruits among them at that time - they hadn't ascended to heaven yet.

Christ never mentioned a barley harvest in any of the gospels, only the wheat harvest which Pentecost would be the firstfruits of.
That's not what Paul said. You are assuming the word "among", but Paul includes himself as those who were firstfruits.
Romans 8:23Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

To claim that "your" firstfruits were among them, you would also have to argue they couldn't be seen as "hope that is seen is not hope".
James also includes himself among those who were firstfruits, but no mention of those resurrected when Christ died. James 1:18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

If there were Christ and a 144,000 walking around in "glorified bodies", why are they still hoping for what still hasn't appeared?
John says, 1John 3:2
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

The remnant of Israel who were coming to a believing faith in Christ in those first-century days was a different group than the bodily-resurrected 144,000 members of the Israelite tribes who were "redeemed from the earth" in a bodily resurrection event when the Spirit "quickened their mortal bodies". They were called "virgins" because there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the resurrected state. The seal put upon them was to mark them for preservation during the tumultuous "days of vengeance" which were soon coming upon Judea, as those who could not be hurt by the second death (of the city of Jerusalem and its temple dying for the second time in AD 70).

I disagree,
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
No mention of anyone receiving their inheritance.
2 Corinthians 11:2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
In the parable of the 10 virgins, there's no mention of "resurrection day" virgins.
Why would "glorified" resurrected and immortal saints need to be preserved?
The key phrase is "mortal bodies". They are still mortal bodies but that dead Adamic body they were carrying around is given Spiritual life so that the believer can live for God.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Everyone arguing for a future physical resurrection for those currently in Paradise are stating they are still in a state of death.

They already have physical bodies so they are not in a state of death.

When I said "no one", I meant it on a local level between you and me. I should have said "I wasn't talking about that". I'm not arguing for a physical resurrection as a physical Christ and physical believers indwelling one another is absurd. John 14:18-24.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is no scripture that says He ascended on resurrection day.

Of course there is. Christ told Mary that's what He was doing that resurrection morning in John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Christ never mentioned a barley harvest in any of the gospels,

Did He need to? This was common knowledge to anyone who was a Jew. They all knew about the Passover "First-fruits" offering of the wave sheaf from Leviticus 23:10-13 of the first of the barley harvest to ripen. This was 50 days prior to the Pentecost wheat harvest offering of Leviticus 23:15-16.

Christ never mentioned a barley harvest in any of the gospels, only the wheat harvest which Pentecost would be the firstfruits of.
That's not what Paul said. You are assuming the word "among", but Paul includes himself as those who were firstfruits.
Romans 8:23Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Paul did not say he WAS the First-fruits of the Spirit. He said that he and the other believers "HAD the First-fruits of the Spirit". That meant the early church HAD among them the First-fruits of the Spirit's work of redeeming the physical bodies of the saints. But even though the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints had those glorified, redeemed bodies changed to the incorruptible, they were waiting with Paul and the rest of the believers for Christ's bodily return when they would be taken to heaven in a resurrected state to be face-to-face with their Creator.

It was not enough to simply get above ground in a glorified, incorruptible state. Complete fellowship restored in salvation is to be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy", as Jude once described. That was the final hope that all of them in the early church were expecting - whether already resurrected or not.

James also includes himself among those who were firstfruits, but no mention of those resurrected when Christ died. James 1:18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

No, James was speaking of only a symbolic "KIND of first-fruits" - similar in one respect to the bodily-resurrected First-fruits in a spiritual sense only.

In the parable of the 10 virgins, there's no mention of "resurrection day" virgins.
Why would "glorified" resurrected and immortal saints need to be preserved?
The key phrase is "mortal bodies". They are still mortal bodies but that dead Adamic body they were carrying around is given Spiritual life so that the believer can live for God.

The word "virgin" of course can be used in various senses, we all know that. And a "seal" put upon someone or something is to reserve or preserve that person or thing for a determined future purpose which has been temporarily delayed for a specific season (such as the "sealing" of the Daniel prophecies for their being unsealed in Revelation times). The "seal" on the 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints was a sign that their eventual ascension to heaven in those glorified incorruptible bodies was an assured promise. At that time, they would be presented in their "faultless" condition before the Father's presence, just as Jude had mentioned.

The very purpose for the believers being "sealed" with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit given to us in this life serves as a pledge (an "arrabon") of the future hope when our physical bodies will also be redeemed to an incorruptible, immortal condition - fit for heaven and God's presence. That is the way Paul described the Holy Spirit in 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:14. It is the "earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession...", namely the redemption of our quickened, mortal bodies into the immortal state.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Of course there is. Christ told Mary that's what He was doing that resurrection morning in John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

We all know He ascended to the Father and sat down at His right hand in chapter 1 of Acts. What you would need to do is prove He actually ascended on that day.

Did He need to? This was common knowledge to anyone who was a Jew. They all knew about the Passover "First-fruits" offering of the wave sheaf from Leviticus 23:10-13 of the first of the barley harvest to ripen. This was 50 days prior to the Pentecost wheat harvest offering of Leviticus 23:15-16.

Christ is that "single sheaf". The harvest of men is never referred to as barley, always wheat, ie Pentecost.

Paul did not say he WAS the First-fruits of the Spirit. He said that he and the other believers "HAD the First-fruits of the Spirit". That meant the early church HAD among them the First-fruits of the Spirit's work of redeeming the physical bodies of the saints. But even though the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints had those glorified, redeemed bodies changed to the incorruptible, they were waiting with Paul and the rest of the believers for Christ's bodily return when they would be taken to heaven in a resurrected state to be face-to-face with their Creator.

It was not enough to simply get above ground in a glorified, incorruptible state. Complete fellowship restored in salvation is to be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy", as Jude once described. That was the final hope that all of them in the early church were expecting - whether already resurrected or not.

Where did I say Paul was "the firstfruits"? And no one was ever resurrected with a "glorified incorruptible physical body. One would think that would be a supremely important doctrine to not have even one explicit verse that says so. It's all assumptive and speculative and then turned into the doctrine and traditions of men. It started with the manmade creeds.

No, James was speaking of only a symbolic "KIND of first-fruits" - similar in one respect to the bodily-resurrected First-fruits in a spiritual sense only.

You mean they're not actually wheat and Christ is not actually barley? Wow, who woulda thunk?

The word "virgin" of course can be used in various senses, we all know that. And a "seal" put upon someone or something is to reserve or preserve that person or thing for a determined future purpose which has been temporarily delayed for a specific season (such as the "sealing" of the Daniel prophecies for their being unsealed in Revelation times). The "seal" on the 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints was a sign that their eventual ascension to heaven in those glorified incorruptible bodies was an assured promise. At that time, they would be presented in their "faultless" condition before the Father's presence, just as Jude had mentioned.

The very purpose for the believers being "sealed" with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit given to us in this life serves as a pledge (an "arrabon") of the future hope when our physical bodies will also be redeemed to an incorruptible, immortal condition - fit for heaven and God's presence. That is the way Paul described the Holy Spirit in 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:14. It is the "earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession...", namely the redemption of our quickened, mortal bodies into the immortal state.

Unless and until someone can show me from scripture that a physical body has been made immortal, I'm just not going to believe that a "heavenly spiritual body" is a physical body. Just naming it and claiming it is not going to cut it. Adam was created in the image of God and became a sinful man, whereas Christ was made in the image of sinful man and became the exact image of the invisible man.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We all know He ascended to the Father and sat down at His right hand in chapter 1 of Acts. What you would need to do is prove He actually ascended on that day.

Christ had to ascend to the Father on that morning after His resurrection in order to "offer Himself without spot to God". God accepted that offering, and Christ sprinkled His sacrificial blood on heaven's mercy seat as His first act as our intercessory Great High Priest. Christ did not wait until 40 days later to do this. We know this was accomplished on that day of Christ's resurrection because Psalms 2:7 has God directly telling the Son "THIS DAY have I begotten thee". Paul in Acts 13:33-34 wrote that this Psalms 2:7 verse was fulfilled on the day Christ was raised from the dead.

Christ is that "single sheaf". The harvest of men is never referred to as barley, always wheat, ie Pentecost.

No, Christ was not the "single sheaf" offered in the temple on that day of Passover week. Christ was represented by the single He-lamb without blemish, which was offered along with the single sheaf handful of barley grain in Leviticus 23:10-12. That single sheaf was not some of the wheat harvest. The "new offering" of the wheat harvest came 50 days later at the time of Pentecost.

Where did I say Paul was "the firstfruits"?

You said it here...

, but Paul includes himself as those who were firstfruits.

Unless and until someone can show me from scripture that a physical body has been made immortal, I'm just not going to believe that a "heavenly spiritual body" is a physical body. Just naming it and claiming it is not going to cut it.

It has been my experience that even when I list all the scriptures related to the physical body of the dead saints being changed into the incorruptible, immortal state in a bodily resurrection process, those who are not inclined to believe them will discard all of them.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Christ had to ascend to the Father on that morning after His resurrection in order to "offer Himself without spot to God". God accepted that offering, and Christ sprinkled His sacrificial blood on heaven's mercy seat as His first act as our intercessory Great High Priest. Christ did not wait until 40 days later to do this. We know this was accomplished on that day of Christ's resurrection because Psalms 2:7 has God directly telling the Son "THIS DAY have I begotten thee". Paul in Acts 13:33-34 wrote that this Psalms 2:7 verse was fulfilled on the day Christ was raised from the dead.

Hebrews 10:12But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet, 14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
You seem to have Christ going to the Father and sitting at His right hand and then a second coming to the disciples for the rest of the 40 days and then a second ascension and then Hebrews 9:28 would actually be a third coming.
The sprinkling of the blood only happened once a year on the day of atonement. Leviticus 16. Christ came to fulfill the law and the prophets and the day of atonement would take place when Jacobs sins would be
Isaiah 27:
9Therefore Jacob’s guilt will be atoned for,
and the full fruit of the removal of his sin will be this:
When he makes all the altar stones
like crushed bits of chalk,
no Asherah poles or incense altars
will remain standing.

This corresponds to Hebrews 9:
6Now these things having been prepared thus, indeed the priests enter into the first tabernacle regularly, accomplishing the sacred services. 7But only the high priest enters into the second, once in the year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and the sins of ignorance of the people.
8By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle still having a standing, 9which is a symbol for the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, not being able to make perfect in regard to conscience the one worshiping,

No, Christ was not the "single sheaf" offered in the temple on that day of Passover week. Christ was represented by the single He-lamb without blemish, which was offered along with the single sheaf handful of barley grain in Leviticus 23:10-12. That single sheaf was not some of the wheat harvest. The "new offering" of the wheat harvest came 50 days later at the time of Pentecost.

From Matthew Henry: The sheaf of first-fruits was typical of the Lord Jesus, who is risen from the dead as the First-fruits of them that slept. Our Lord Jesus rose from the dead on the very day that the first-fruits were offered. We are taught by this law to honour the Lord with our substance, and with the first-fruits of all our increase, Pr 3:9
From Jameson Faust: The offering of the wave-sheaf sanctified the whole harvest (Ro 11:16). At the same time, this feast had a typical character, and pre-intimated the resurrection of Christ (1Co 15:20), who rose from the dead on the very day the first-fruits were offered.
From John Gill: and it was waved, and brought, and a handful taken and burnt, and the rest was eaten by the priests; and when they had offered the omer, they went out and found the streets of Jerusalem full of meal and parched corn (o), there being now full liberty to reap what they would: now this sheaf of the firstfruits was typical of Christ;

You said it here...

Yeah, among the firstfruits, not "the firstfruits".

It has been my experience that even when I list all the scriptures related to the physical body of the dead saints being changed into the incorruptible, immortal state in a bodily resurrection process, those who are not inclined to believe them will discard all of them.

Because you have no way of explaining how, having seen the resurrected Christ and according to you a 144,000 resurrected, and glorified bodied saints John still says the following:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
You also have no way of explaining how Christ's physical body will enter our physical body and how our physical bodies will enter His single physical body. But that's exactly what Christ says in John 14 that He and the Father would be in us and we in Him.