What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[Douggg]

So what ties all of these so-called functions together? What makes then a single person? Well 1st, they aren't, in my view, all the same person. The coming prince is the Roman general. 2nd, what ties them together is reference back to the Little Horn of Dan 7. They all go back to what is described as an end-time adversary of Christianity. All NT references to such a person goes back to the Little Horn of Dan 7. Their differing functions would not contradict that passage if indeed they referred to the same person. The "coming ruler" does not relate at all to Dan 7 and thus is not Antichrist, in my opinion.

The bible does not say little horn, prince who shall come, Antichrist, revealed man of sin, the beast - as stand-alone words.

They are in a context of actions that they do. The context of the little horn in Daniel 8 is that he is time of the end.

 

[Douggg]

You're not making any argument here. As I said, the functions I have, and the functions Antichrist has, are general functions. It is the person who gives those functions uniqueness--not the fact it is biblical. There are all kinds of "men of sin" in the Bible. That still doesn't make it technically applicable to the Antichrist, or whatever you choose to call him.

No, there is only one person who will be the revealed man of sin - because in biblical context of 2Thessalonians2:4, that person will go into the temple, sit, claim to have achieved God-hood

 

[RandyPNW]

The seven heads are sequential kings. The ten kings are a separate group of kings - that rule concurrent with one another, i.e at the same time.

If you are talking about the ten kings, and the little horn removes three of those ten kings in Daniel 7 - they would have to be replaced imo for the number to come back to ten.

What will probably happen is three of those ten leaders will refuse to go along with the little horn's agenda - at what point of the end times events, I don't know.

I also don't know if "plucked up by the roots " (Daniel 7:8) means removed from power, or that he has them executed for high treason. Maybe they plot to kill the little horn , like nazi generals who tried to assassinate Hitler.

When the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin (ending his time in the Antichrist functional role) - in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has strangers come against him and assassinate him. That's how the mortally wounded head in Revelation 13, gets mortally wounded.

I have no knowledge about an "assassination of the Antichrist?" I tend to think the fatal wound of the Beast is the Roman Empire's split into nations. The wound may have come at the Cross, when Christ crushed the head of the Serpent.

In Rev 17 the 7 kings are likened to 7 historical kingdoms in succession, from ancient Egypt to the final reconsolidated Roman Empire. This would be Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and reconsolidated/healed Rome.

I think the 10 horns and 7 heads indicate by the "horns" nations, and by the "heads" leaders. When Antichrist defeats 3 of the 10 leaders, that will leave 7 leaders, while still controlling all 10 nations.

 

[Douggg]

Just call him the Antichrist. Works for me.

Donald Duck may work for you. But that doesn't mean that it is biblically correct.

 

[Douggg]

I have no knowledge about an "assassination of the Antichrist?" I tend to think the fatal wound of the Beast is the Roman Empire's split into nations. The wound may have come at the Cross, when Christ crushed the head of the Serpent.

It is one of the heads on the beast kingdom that is mortally wounded.... not the kingdom itself.

It will be the assassination of the revealed man of sin.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It did not happen at the time of the Cross. It will happen in the first half of the seven years, around the the 3 year mark.

You have to back track through a course of events to know that. 1335 days before Jesus returns, the abomination statue image of beast will be setup. 2520-1335 = day 1185 on the 7 year timeline.

Given that it will take some time to make the statue image, maybe 30 days or so, that means the person becomes the beast on day 1155, a guesstimate.

So before then, he has to be assassinated. So another 30 days or so, to plot and carry out the revealed man of sin's assassination. That would mean that the person commits the 2Theesalionians2:4 on day 1125 on the seven year timeline.

1125 days divided by 360 days/year = 3.125 years.

i.e around the 3 year mark into the 7 years, the person will be assassinated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Revelation 12, which has the full seven years in it, none of the heads have been mortally wounded in that chapter. Which verifies that the mortal wounding takes place around 3 years into the 7 years.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will make a timeline chart of all of those events - to make it visibly more clear.

 

[oikonomia]

That's a good analysis. One thing I'd like to differ though is that "great tribulation(s)" in 7:14 covers all the church age from Christ to the end since the robes for the great multitude of saints were "washed in the blood of the Lamb".

I see your point. But I believe Revelation is the climax of the whole Bible. It covers not only the climax of Israel and the climax of the church but the all-encompassing climax of the universe. The twenty-four elders who play such a prominent role starting in chapter four, are the most ancient elders of all creatures created by God. They are the elders of creation - angels being the most elder of beings God created.

John being of the original twelve disciples is not among them and John surely is "elder" in the Christian church from the 1rst century.
And all human beings who are saved, whether before the church age or during it, will be so because of the blood of Christ the Lamb.
I would therefore submit that retroactively from the time nations, tribes, and tongues were on the earth, all will be under the blood of Christ. No man comes to the Father except through the Son. (John 14:6)

Before that, all of God's people had been in Hades, also known as Sheol or the grave in the OT. When Abraham died, he was "gathered to his people" (Gen. 25:8), so were Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses and Aaron and all the kings of Israel.

Concerning all the people of faith in Hebrews 11, they are "a great cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1) from before the church age.
The writer says "And these all, having obtained a good testimony through their faith, did not obtain the promise,
Because God has provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."(Heb.11:39,40)

My point is that all these plus the church founded after the resurrection of Christ become one "made perfect" enumerable
multitude from the entire world history. The great cloud of witnesses, people of faith in God eventually all come to the Father through Christ's redemption.

Note that this great cloud of surrounding witnesses include some who were Gentiles - Abel (v.4), Enoch (v.5), Noah (v.7), Rehab [though she did join Israel] (v.31) , "women received their dead" (v.35) who was of Sidon (1 KIngs 17:9; Luke 4:26). My point is that eventually all of faith from before and after the church came into being, form one enumerable corporate body because of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

It's very important to understand the "fullness of the Gentiles", also known as "commonwealth of Israel". That's the complete global body of Christ's church, also the "number of their fellow servants and brethren" reference in Rev. 1:6.

Because Revelation is the climax of all sixty-six books of the Bible, I would teach that the vision of chapter 7:9-17 has its purpose
to assure that from man being on the earth in all ages, God will preserve for His living tabernacle ALL who come to God through His Redeemer - Christ the Lamb. Only of the angels who have never sinned as the most ancient "elders" of creation stand by to inform John a human, Christ's redemption encompasses all people from ANY earth age ultimately.

And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Lk. 21:24)
or I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 11:25)

Because I did reference this verse Rom. 11:25, I can understand your interpretation. Ie. "The fulness of the Gentiles means Gentiles from the church age who responded to the Gospel. " At present my opinion is that the enumerable multitude is as all-encompassing as the sign of New Jerusalem in chapter 21,22. But I am going to further consider it.

Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 1:6)

I did point out previously that of all people of faith that have been, not all have spilt their blood for that faith. They testified in other ways also. So the souls underneath the altar in the fifth seal represents just those people of faith who were killed. That does not mean others not called to shed blood are less loved or less rewarded by God.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. (Rev. 6:9) my emphasis.

I believe those four horsemen were a visualization of all kinds of trials and tribulations throughout the church age, which alludes to Matt. 24:4-8.

I think that is fine. But I believe the souls underneath the altar (the place of sacrifice) is limited to those bearing a certain testimony - they were KILLED. Their crying out for vengeance is temporarily appeased by the robe signifying God approved of their extra-ordinary sacrifice. You teach that robe is (I think) meaning redemption in a general sense.
I teach that both martyred believers and non-martyred believers have a robe of redemption.

So this robe furnished to them is God approving of thier sacrifice as they are asked to be patient for vindication a little while longer.
And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be KILLED, even as they were, is completed. (6:11)

Again, this does not mean those of history not called upon to testify with the suffering killing, are not also precious to God.

Then I wanna address the 144,000, there're so many wild speculations about this crowd that get people confused. These 144,000 were called the "firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), that's their identity. To understand what that means you have to go back to the Torah. Firstfruit was one of the seven festivals, the first sunday after Passover, and it always falls in the festival of Unleavened Bread, the whole week after Passover.

I use to suspect that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in chapter 7 was the same 144,000 Firstfruits seen on Mt. Zion in heaven in chapter 14. Gradually, I became persuade that only the symbolic number is the same. This change of view took time.

Why do you think they are the same group other than the similarity of the number 144,000?

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Lev. 23:9-11)

This festival is a festival of harvest, a sheaf from the harvest was brought to the high priest, who shall "wave it before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf." This ritual symbolizes the end time gathering of the 144,000, where they are the sheaf, Jesus the Lamb is the High Priest who presents them before the Lord:

Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Rev. 14:1-5)

And after that, the Great Multitude is the harvest the reaping of the earth (Rev. 14:14-16), that is the whole harvest, of which the 144,000 is just a small sample. During Jesus's ministry he made many parables and references of reaping and harvesting, this is the fulfillment. He will gather the wheat and burn the tares.

I would like to review some the Feasts.

What I would like to say is that Firstfruits and Harvest are a matter of WHEN the crops are mature, ripe, and ready to be taken up.
This is a matter of God's life growing in man as we are the farm of God planting, cultivating, and giving growth to.

Now here and there throughout history some individual saints died in maturity having been fully sanctified.
What I see here in chapter 14 is that just before the start of the great tribulation a corporate group of those living together
reach ripeness in spiritual growth.

They will have an experience that no other people in history will have.
That is to never physiscally expire but follow Jesus right up to rapture alive.
The uniqueness of their experience is reflected in the uniqueness of their SONG which no one else can learn who have not THIS experience.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (Rev. 14:3)

Now many saints of God celebrate by singing. This unique song is based on their unique experience.
They never die but follow the Lamb right up into Heaven alive.

Now some interesting comments were made by another poster that I may spend time on.
Thanks, and continue.

Here is a scripture song offering for Revelation 7:14,15,17. Sing along!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I see your point. But I believe Revelation is the climax of the whole Bible. It covers not only the climax of Israel and the climax of the church but the all-encompassing climax of the universe. The twenty-four elders who play such a prominent role starting in chapter four, are the most ancient elders of all creatures created by God. They are the elders of creation - angels being the most elder of beings God created.

John being of the original twelve disciples is not among them and John surely is "elder" in the Christian church from the 1rst century.
And all human beings who are saved, whether before the church age or during it, will be so because of the blood of Christ the Lamb.
I would therefore submit that retroactively from the time nations, tribes, and tongues were on the earth, all will be under the blood of Christ. No man comes to the Father except through the Son. (John 14:6)

There were 24 divisions of temple priests recorded in 1 Chron. 24, Zechariah, father of John the Baptist was the division of Abijah. Those 24 elders are the heavenly priests, they are a replica of those 24 elders on earth, so yes, they could be angels. But they're definitely not "12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples", as some original bible commentaries said.

Concerning all the people of faith in Hebrews 11, they are "a great cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1) from before the church age.
The writer says "And these all, having obtained a good testimony through their faith, did not obtain the promise,
Because God has provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect."(Heb.11:39,40)

My point is that all these plus the church founded after the resurrection of Christ become one "made perfect" enumerable
multitude from the entire world history. "s" [new testament saved] and them, the great cloud of witnesses, people of faith in God eventually come to the Father through Christ's redemption.

Note that this great cloud of surrounding witnesses include some who were Gentiles - Abel (v.4), Enoch (v.5), Noah (v.7), Rehab [though she did join Israel] (v.31) , "women received their dead" (v.35) who was of Sidon (1 KIngs 17:9; Luke 4:26). My point is that eventually all of faith from before and after the church came into being, form one enumerable corporate body because of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

Because Revelation is the climax of all sixty-six books of the Bible, I would teach that the vision of chapter 7:9-17 has its purpose
to assure that from man being on the earth in all ages, God will preserve for His living tabernacle ALL who come to God through His Redeemer - Christ the Lamb. Only of the angels who have never sinned as the most ancient "elders" of creation stand by to inform John a human, Christ's redemption encompasses all people from ANY earth age ultimately.
Because I did reference this verse Rom. 11:25, I can understand your interpretation. Ie. "The fulness of the Gentiles means Gentiles from the church age who responded to the Gospel. " At present my opinion is that the enumerable multitude is as all-encompassing as the sign of New Jerusalem in chapter 21,22. But I am going to further consider it.
I did point out previously that of all people of faith that have been, not all have spilt their blood for that faith. They testified in other ways also. So the souls underneath the altar in the fifth seal represents just those people of faith who were killed. That does not mean others not called to shed blood are less loved or less rewarded by God.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. (Rev. 6:9) my emphasis.

The bottom line is that this great multitude is God's global church of all tribes, tongues and nations, including - not excluding - Israel. In fact, most people don't know that back in Exodus, a "mixed multitude" followed Israel into the wilderness (Ex. 11:38), and they were assimilated into the 12 tribes, therefore Israel started off with as a mixed multitude of many ethnicities, their national identity was in the shared culture and heritage of the Torah. Even today's modern state of Israel is not monolithic, its citizens came from all over the world. "Fullness of gentiles" is the end goal of the Great Commission, and that only comes to pass when all the seals are opened, not right before the first seal is opened in the classical dispensitional model.

I use to suspect that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in chapter 7 was the same 144,000 Firstfruits seen on Mt. Zion in heaven in chapter 14. Gradually, I became persuade that only the symbolic number is the same. This change of view took time.

Why do you think they are the same group other than the similarity of the number 144,000?

Why do you think they're not? I know most people tend to compartmentalize with a reductionist approach, and they can;t see the forest for the trees. The bible is consistent, since there were those 144,000 sanctified saints from the 12 tribes in ch. 07, of course they are the same group in ch. 14, there's no reason to suspect otherwise, if you do it only gets things complicated and get yourself confused.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Zao is life]

I don't think so. At least the "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:13-14 couldn't be limited to THE great end time tribulation, that would exclude all previous generations of believers from that great multitude since they passed away before the Great Tribulation. If you and I kick the bucket prematurely, we would be excluded from that since we fail to "come out the the great tribulation." That seems to contradict the "fullness of the gentiles" schedule in Romans 11:25 and Rev. 6:11. All believers throughout history were to be added into that Great Multitude, which constitutes the full body of christ, In some translations, this verse says "great tribulations", referring to all the birth pains described in the Olivet Discourse, not just the end time reign of the Antichrist.

Besides the fact that tribulation, even periods of intense tribulation (such as the tribulation under Nero) is something the pages of the New Testament tell us that the saints will endure, great tribulation is mentioned only three times in the New Testament.

First mention: The Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20) *

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved.
But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

Third mention: Revelation 7:13-14: "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Second mention: Revelation 2:21: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

You need to be sure you understand the clear distinction the scriptures make between (a) tribulation and wrath; and (b) tribulation when it's not produced by God's wrath; and (c) the difference between tribulation and great tribulation:

THE BIBLE ON:-

1. Wrath.
2. Judgment.
3. Universal Judgment.
4. Persecution.
5. Tribulation.
6. Great Tribulation.

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger, but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

ALL MENTIONS OF PERSECUTION, TRIBULATION, & GREAT TRIBULATION IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament.​

 

[oikonomia]

Why do you think they're not? I know most people tend to compartmentalize with a reductionist approach, and they can;t see the forest for the trees. The bible is consistent, since there were those 144,000 sanctified saints from the 12 tribes in ch. 07, of course they are the same group in ch. 14, there's no reason to suspect otherwise, if you do it only gets things complicated and get yourself confused.

For some years, as I said, I assumed that there was no reason to suspect 12,000 each from the twelve tribes in chapter 7 of course were
the same group of 144,000 Firstfruits in chapter 14.

It is not that we should unduly complicate it for no reason. Throughout some of our discussion I have asked myself a few times -"Is this point worth having a debate over?" But I will reply to it latter and try to make it Christ centric and Christ exulting for our hopefully mutual benefit.

You asked, so I should give reasons for this hope in me. I will point out the issues soon.
Allow me to come back to it latter as I also owe poster IamIamad some overdue responses today.

Grace and peace in the Lord till then.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I would like to review some the Feasts.

What I would like to say is that Firstfruits and Harvest are a matter of WHEN the crops are mature, ripe, and ready to be taken up.
This is a matter of God's life growing in man as we are the farm of God planting, cultivating, and giving growth to.

Now here and there throughout history some individual saints died in maturity having been fully sanctified.
What I see here in chapter 14 is that just before the start of the great tribulation a corporate group of those living together
reach ripeness in spiritual growth.

They will have an experience that no other people in history will have.
That is to never physiscally expire but follow Jesus right up to rapture alive.
The uniqueness of their experience is reflected in the uniqueness of their SONG which no one else can learn who have not THIS experience.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (Rev. 14:3)

Now many saints of God celebrate by singing. This unique song is based on their unique experience.
They never die but follow the Lamb right up into Heaven alive.

Now some interesting comments were made by another poster that I may spend time on.
Thanks, and continue.

Here is a scripture song offering for Revelation 7:14,15,17. Sing along!

For some years, as I said, I assumed that there was no reason to suspect 12,000 each from the twelve tribes in chapter 7 of course were
the same group of 144,000 Firstfruits in chapter 14.

It is not that we should unduly complicate it for no reason. Throughout some of our discussion I have asked myself a few times -"Is this point worth having a debate over?" But I will reply to it latter and try to make it Christ centric and Christ exulting for our hopefully mutual benefit.

You asked, so I should give reasons for this hope in me. I will point out the issues soon.
Allow me to come back to it latter as I also owe poster IamIamad some overdue responses today.

Grace and peace in the Lord till then.

What’s worth having a debate over us whether those are all Jewish evangelicals bringing people to Christ during the three and half years, that’s what I’ve heard from the pulpit and podcasts all the time. That doesn’t really hold water under close scrutiny, since by biblical definition, the southern kingdom of Judah was only consisted of Judah and Benjamin and some Levites, the other ten were “lost” and assimilated into other nations, that’s the curse for disobedience to God (see Deut. 28:15-68).

 

[oikonomia]

Good answer! Have you ever watched a play where they close the curtain between acts? What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next "act."

Greetings IamIamad. I will try to catch up on some comments to me you made.
The analogy you employ there on inserted visions between the seals is pretty good.

I believe that is what John is doing here in chapter 7: rearranging the setting. You see, God our Father will absolutely NOT ALLOW the 7th seal to be opened to begin the 70th week of Daniel, starting with the trumpets, until He sees two events completed:
First, God must see that the 144,000 are sealed for their protection.
Second, God must see the church safely in heaven before God's wrath is felt with the first trumpet.

I would teach that the insertion of the two preservations in chapter 7 should be understood like this:
Verses 1 through 8 assure the seer that THROUGH the 3.5 year great tribulation a remnant of Israelites are assured to be preserved.
Verses 9 -17 is showing in a general way that through all history's tribulation God will preserve His total elect from eternal judgment.

I asked myself one day - "At what time in history would God have ALL the saved in the heaven?"
What no one ever taught me but I thought of myself, was the time when at the great white throne when earth and heaven flee away.

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it,
from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (Rev. 20:11)

He would have to preserve all who are not burnt up with the old heaven and earth.

Second Peter 3:10,11a - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, . . .

Verses 10,12 - Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens,
being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?
But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

So I believe meaning is not exactly that all saved from all ages are seen raptured during the GT.
Rather the vision is a kind of telescopic view projecting into eternity future that all saved are preserved sovereignly for the new heaven and new earth.
And such rapture merely starts around or before the opening of the sixth seal.

When John saw the great crowd, he probably wondered who they were. The elder asked, "where did they come from?" We imagine the answer will be "How did they suddenly get here from planet earth?" That is not at all the answer given. The answer given is, each member of this huge crowd, too large to number, came from a life of tribulation on earth, away from God.

This seems like what I would teach. Only all of history includes retroactively pre-church saved who all come to the Father only through
the Son of God one way or another. To me there are some unknowns or not well knowns about how God will retroactively put all
people of every epoch under Christ's redemption and into the tabernacle of God.

But each member heard the gospel and responded, being born again or as John put it, washed their robes in the blood of Jesus. But this elder considered the entire crowd together, so added up each individual life of tribulation away from God and called it mega or great tribulation.

This "great tribulation" had nothing to do with the days of GT Jesus spoke about that will not begin in John's book until late in chapter 14.

I agree that "the great tribulation" in this instance means world history's complete tribulation of the fall of man requiring God's preservation and salvation. In eternity the Lamb leads them to endless sources of God dispensing divine life as living water to them. Let's read it again!

. . . These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Because of this they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them.

They will not hunger anymore, neither will they thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat upon them, nor any heat;
For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. (Rev. 7:14b-17)

 

[oikonomia]

What’s worth having a debate over us whether those are all Jewish evangelicals bringing people to Christ during the three and half years, that’s what I’ve heard from the pulpit and podcasts all the time. That doesn’t really hold water under close scrutiny, since by biblical definition, the southern kingdom of Judah was only consisted of Judah and Benjamin and some Levites, the other ten were “lost” and assimilated into other nations, that’s the curse for disobedience to God (see Deut. 28:15-68).

I hear you. Stay tuned and I will explain myself. The two groups of 144,000 have two distinct purposes to show.
Now I am trying to catch up to another prolific poster - IamIamad.

You can ready yourself by reading chapter 7 and chapter 14 again to gather all the facts.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Good answer! Have you ever watched a play where they close the curtain between acts? What happens behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next "act."

I believe that is what John is doing here in chapter 7: rearranging the setting. You see, God our Father will absolutely NOT ALLOW the 7th seal to be opened to begin the 70th week of Daniel, starting with the trumpets, until He sees two events completed:
First, God must see that the 144,000 are sealed for their protection.
Second, God must see the church safely in heaven before God's wrath is felt with the first trumpet.

When John saw the great crowd, he probably wondered who they were. The elder asked, "where did they come from?" We imagine the answer will be "How did they suddenly get here from planet earth?" That is not at all the answer given. The answer given is, each member of this huge crowd, too large to number, came from a life of tribulation on earth, away from God. But each member heard the gospel and responded, being born again or as John put it, washed their robes in the blood of Jesus. But this elder considered the entire crowd together, so added up each individual life of tribulation away from God and called it mega or great tribulation.

This "great tribulation" had nothing to do with the days of GT Jesus spoke about that will not begin in John's book until late in chapter 14.

I just believe that the end time events should be dissociated from Daniel's 70th week. Those 70 weeks were a contimuum, there's no gap between the 69th and the 70th week. The 70 weeks were already fulfilled by Jesus in his FIRST coming, period.

 

[oikonomia]

I disagree. This great crowd is limited ONLY to those who are "In Christ." So they go back to the early church or only approximately 2000 years. However, I suspect billions: maybe 50 or more generations of believes, plus all the children at the time of the rapture.

I believe the Old Testament saints will be caught up at the 7th bowl in chapter 16, which resurrection will cause the world's worst earthquake.

But you see, no one comes to the Father except through the Son of God. (John 14:6)
People before the new testament age, are they not also inevitably "in Christ?"

I do not presume to know HOW pre-church age saved are all eventually put "in Christ".

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But you see, no one comes to the Father except through the Son of God. (John 14:6)
People before the new testament age, are they not also inevitably "in Christ?"

I do not presume to know HOW pre-church age saved are all eventually put "in Christ".

In Abraham's bosom until Christ set them free from Hades.

 

[oikonomia]

In Abraham's bosom until Christ set them free from Hades.

Yes, I agree that that place of faith may well be involved. Thanks.

 

[oikonomia]

I just believe that the end time events should be dissociated from Daniel's 70th week. Those 70 weeks were a contimuum, there's no gap between the 69th and the 70th week. The 70 weeks were already fulfilled by Jesus in his FIRST coming, period.

But if all the prophesy of the 70th week of Daniel has all been fulfilled, where is the revelation?
Then only learned historians of ancient history could sort it out.
Not much revelation would be needed, only scholarly education on history.

This is something else we might discuss latter.

 

[oikonomia]

Why do you think they're not? I know most people tend to compartmentalize with a reductionist approach, and they can;t see the forest for the trees. The bible is consistent, since there were those 144,000 sanctified saints from the 12 tribes in ch. 07, of course they are the same group in ch. 14, there's no reason to suspect otherwise, if you do it only gets things complicated and get yourself confused.

I believe two different groups are revealed with the number of perfection associated with them.
Chapter 7 - 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Chapter 14 - 144,000 Firstfruits who follow the Lamb alive into heaven before the GT.

Revelation is a book of climax of both Old Testament promises and New Testament promises.
Many dear Christians tend to give most of the weight in Revelation to fulfillment of New Testament promises to the church.
I would encourage such to be enlarged some. Revelation also concludes some matters related to old covenant Israel.

As God reserved for Himself in Elijah's time 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal,
similarly the vision of a remnant from the 12 tribes indicates God's preservation of national Israel THROUGH the GT.

While some believers move to the conclusion that these 144,000 Jews will be great evangelists, nothing at all
is said about thier activity. We only see that they are selected to be preserved.

The flavor of their preservation has more of an Old Testament tone than the flavor of the 144,000 FIrstfruits in chapter 14.
1.) The directions to seal them comes not from the Lamb but from "another Angel" (v.7:2). While here as well as other places
in Revelation "Another Angel" should mean Christ. BUT He is designated like His Old Testament manifestation as "the Angel of Jehovah."
IMO the flavor is of Christ in His old covenant characteristics keeping promise to the Israelites. (See Gen. 22:11-12; Exo. 3:2-6; Judges 6:11-24; Zech. 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7).

2.) In contrast to this the manifestation of Christ in chapter 14 is more related to the new covenant "the Lamb" (14: 1,4)

3.) Where as the 144,000 sealed in chapter 7 are preserved by "the seal of the living God" (7:2) the 144,000 of chapter 14
are related to "His [the Lamb's] name and the name of His Father".

4.) Whereas the 144,000 of chapter 7 are referred to as "the slaves of our God"(7:3) the more intimate life relationship
of the Firstfruits in chapter 14 is to "His [the Lamb's] Father" (14:1)

Both groups are assured ownership by God as the mark of preservation is on their foreheads.

5.) Just taking what we are told in the two respective chapters ALL WE KNOW . . . is the Jews are preserved and Firstfruits are raptured.

That the 144,000 Jews are great end time evangelists is only speculation.
And it is usually based on the faulty assumption that NO gospel preaching Christians will be LEFT on the earth
after a pre-great tribulation rapture of the whole church.

That the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in chapter 7 are latter raptured to stand with Christ on some heavenly Mount Zion in chapter 14
is also speculation. Most likely it is based on God using the same number signifying a.) a remnant b.) perfection of some sort.

6.) All we are TOLD from chapter 7 is that these 144,000 are sealed that they be not harmed by the damaging of the judging four winds
during the GT. Speculate if you wish that they are SEALED in addition that they may be raptured. It just says they are sealed to be protected.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (7:2,3)

7.) In fact in chapter 7 we are told NOTHING about their spiritual condition. We are only told that the living God has
SEALED them for protection and preservation.

In contrast the 144,000 Firstfruits of chapter 14 are followers of the Lamb where ever He goes. They being redeemed from the earth (raptured)
are for the Lamb and the Father's satisfaction. They are a testimony to thier being a pleasure to the Father and the Son.

8.) During the great tribulation we are told that TWO classes of people will stand against the persecution of the Antichrist.
1.) Those who keep the commandments of God.
2.) Those who have the testimony of Jesus. (Or those who have "the faith of Jesus." )

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

This does not mean that the Jews on earth at that time are successful in keeping all the commandments.
I think it means that they DO resist Antichrist by keeping the commandment that no other god can replace the God of Israel.

Also in Revelation 12 and 14 though in one sense the two groups are distinct, they are also seen as one entity.
1.) "the rest of her seed" of the persecuted bright woman of light. (12:17)
2.) "the saints" (14:12)

During the 3.5 year great tribulation especially monotheistic Jews undergo persecution and monotheistic Christians also.

Some might pushback saying Christians must keep the commandments of God once they have the faith of Jesus.
However, I think the order in that case would reflect this by putting "the faith of Jesus" or "the testimony of Jesus" BEFORE "keep the commandments of God."

I'll let you consider these points before writing more.
Bottom line is that I would teach perfection of preservation is over a remnant of the twelve tribes through the GT.
And a perfection of pleasingness in following Christ causes some living believers to be rapture as Firstfruits EARLY
before the start of the GT.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But if all the prophesy of the 70th week of Daniel has all been fulfilled, where is the revelation?
Then only learned historians of ancient history could sort it out.
Not much revelation would be needed, only scholarly education on history.

This is something else we might discuss latter.

The revelation is the revelation of vision and prophecies that were sealed up by the end of the 70th week. That’s also the deals that Jesus opened.