What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[Jonathan_Gale]

Despite my acute awareness of how dividing and sensitive this topic is in the Christian community, I have to ask since the Holy Spirit has put this on my mind and I just couldn't shake it off. You guys, like me, probably have heard the "rapture of the church" a million times that you've grown numb to it, there're these hollywood movies about it, there're heated debates about the timing and validity of it, but this term is still a puzzling to me, no one has ever given a clear definition. When I asked, they immediately hid behind the shield of a dictionary which reads "upcatching" or "snatch" without any furthur detail. If I inquire for furthur detail, they just stonewall me with more lectures on ancient Greek lexicon, which was really frustrating!

Ironically, by pure luck I accidentally read an article on this topic from Jerusalem Post, which correctly states that "rapture" is a christian doctrine about MASS RESURRECTION at the end times. That was such an epiphany to me. The doctrine of "rapture" is mainly developed from two portions of the Scripture from 1 Thess. and 1. Cor.:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

If you carefully examine the CONTEXT, you'll see that both so called "proof texts" are plainly and directly talking about resurrection. That not only fits into the grand narrative of the bible, but also OT prophecy in Dan. 12:2 and Ez. 37:5. It was called a "mystery" because although the concept of resurrection was recorded in the prophecies, but not in the Torah, the first five books of the bible. Since the resurrection of Christ, it's no longer a mystery, the same power that raised Christ from the dead will also raise us from the dead.

And then there comes the sad and harsh reality - in order to be resurrected, we will die first, like all generations before us, like the Lord himself who "lived, died, and came alive forevermore." (Rev. 1:18) That's not what you get fed up with from the pulpit, is it. The John Nelson Darby version is usually a pain free cop-out, which comes either in form of anti-gravity ascension like Christ on the Mount of Olives, or a "puff" teleportation into heaven like the Left Behind movies. That's wild fantasy for itchy ears, not sound biblical teaching. There's no guarantee for us to be among those "who are still alive and left" in the bible. In fact, we as the end time generation are more likely to perish in the four horsemen judgements and end up crying for justice in the fifth seal:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Therefore, in conclusion, like many other theological concepts, the concept of "rapture" is biblical, the church doctrine developed from it has kind of missed the mark. In other words, the MESSAGE is true, the MESSAGING is problematic.

 

[RandyPNW]

Despite my acute awareness of how dividing and sensitive this topic is in the Christian community, I have to ask since the Holy Spirit has put this on my mind and I just couldn't shake it off. You guys, like me, probably have heard the "rapture of the church" a million times that you've grown numb to it, there're these hollywood movies about it, there're heated debates about the timing and validity of it, but this term is still a puzzling to me, no one has ever given a clear definition. When I asked, they immediately hid behind the shield of a dictionary which reads "upcatching" or "snatch" without any furthur detail. If I inquire for furthur detail, they just stonewall me with more lectures on ancient Greek lexicon, which was really frustrating!

Ironically, by pure luck I accidentally read an article on this topic from Jerusalem Post, which correctly states that "rapture" is a christian doctrine about MASS RESURRECTION at the end times. That was such an epiphany to me. The doctrine of "rapture" is mainly developed from two portions of the Scripture from 1 Thess. and 1. Cor.:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess. 4:16-17)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

If you carefully examine the CONTEXT, you'll see that both so called "proof texts" are plainly and directly talking about resurrection. That not only fits into the grand narrative of the bible, but also OT prophecy in Dan. 12:2 and Ez. 37:5. It was called a "mystery" because although the concept of resurrection was recorded in the prophecies, but not in the Torah, the first five books of the bible. Since the resurrection of Christ, it's no longer a mystery, the same power that raised Christ from the dead will also raise us from the dead.

And then there comes the sad and harsh reality - in order to be resurrected, we will die first, like all generations before us, like the Lord himself who "lived, died, and came alive forevermore." (Rev. 1:18) That's not what you get fed up with from the pulpit, is it. The John Nelson Darby version is usually a pain free cop-out, which comes either in form of anti-gravity ascension like Christ on the Mount of Olives, or a "puff" teleportation into heaven like the Left Behind movies. That's wild fantasy for itchy ears, not sound biblical teaching. There's no guarantee for us to be among those "who are still alive and left" in the bible. In fact, we as the end time generation are more likely to perish in the four horsemen judgements and end up crying for justice in the fifth seal:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Therefore, in conclusion, like many other theological concepts, the concept of "rapture" is biblical, the church doctrine developed from it has kind of missed the mark. In other words, the MESSAGE is true, the MESSAGING is problematic.

Right. For 1800 years the closest thing to a Pretrib Rapture was the general teaching about how we need to escape God's Wrath. Pretribbers define "God's Wrath" as the "Reign of Antichrist" with its accompanying 7 years of judgments. But nothing of the sort is even taught in the Scriptures. And it's just plain fact that until John N. Darby came along nobody--nobody saw a Pretrib Rapture in the Bible.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Right. For 1800 years the closest thing to a Pretrib Rapture was the general teaching about how we need to escape God's Wrath. Pretribbers define "God's Wrath" as the "Reign of Antichrist" with its accompanying 7 years of judgments. But nothing of the sort is even taught in the Scriptures. And it's just plain fact that until John N. Darby came along nobody--nobody saw a Pretrib Rapture in the Bible.

Pre-trib REMOVAL is definitely biblical (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:8), what matters is your understanding of it. There is a difference between the wrath of Satan upon the saints and the wrath of God upon the minions who've taken the mark of Satan. The most biblical explanation for this pre-trib removal is simply that we'll all be six feet under long before the final Antichrist is revealed, and in order for him to be revealed, we the restraining spiritual power must be gone. Death is not the end, but a new beginning, we just have to make peace with it.

 

[RandyPNW]

Pre-trib REMOVAL is definitely biblical (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:8), what matters is your understanding of it. There is a difference between the wrath of Satan upon the saints and the wrath of God upon the minions who've taken the mark of Satan. The most biblical explanation for this pre-trib removal is simply that we'll all be six feet under long before the final Antichrist is revealed, and in order for him to be revealed, we the restraining spiritual power must be gone. Death is not the end, but a new beginning, we just have to make peace with it.

No, Pretrib Removal is not biblical. You provide 2 verses that do not remotely suggest a Pretrib Removal! 2 Thes 2.7 talks about the Restrainer, which the Church Fathers understood to be Roman Government. Imperial Roman Government was viewed, in the book of Daniel, as a precursor to its division into 10 states. Antichrist cannot be revealed until imperial Roman Govt. is removed. I don't think Paul could be more transparent in a public letter because he was writing about Roman Govt, and any explicit reference to it could be viewed as sedition.

At any rate, there is *not one single mention* of a Tribulation in 2 Thes 2.7--it is hardly a proof-text.

The other verse, Rev 3.8 likewise says nothing about a Tribulation. Usually, a Pretribber will argue that the ancient church of Philadelphia was kept from the "hour of trial," which is assumed by Pretribbers to be the Reign of Antichrist. That is Rev 3.10. But this was an historical church going through an historical trial. Nothing in there about the Church being removed before tribulation under Antichrist.

So contrary to your statement, Pretribism is hardly biblical! There is nothing in the Scriptures that teach, explicitly, that the Church will be caught out of the world before the Reign of Antichrist. Nothing at all.

And this is why Christians had no Pretrib Theology up until John N. Darby came up with Dispensationalism in around 1830. It just isn't there. You might find some symbols to read your logical conclusions into, but the doctrine is not taught in the Bible. Period. That should make every Christian suspicious.

I don't know why you make a distinction between Satan's Wrath and God's Wrath? Are you saying that because Christians suffer Satan's Wrath during the Reign of Antichrist that they are not suffering "God's Wrath?" However, that is the argument Pretribbers most often make, that Christians must be Raptured out of the world before the rise of Antichrist because it is the time of "God's Wrath."

But if you're saying that the Reign of Antichrist is not to be confused with the time of "God's Wrath," then there is no argument left for Pretribism!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No, Pretrib Removal is not biblical. You provide 2 verses that do not remotely suggest a Pretrib Removal! 2 Thes 2.7 talks about the Restrainer, which the Church Fathers understood to be Roman Government. Imperial Roman Government was viewed, in the book of Daniel, as a precursor to its division into 10 states. Antichrist cannot be revealed until imperial Roman Govt. is removed. I don't think Paul could be more transparent in a public letter because he was writing about Roman Govt, and any explicit reference to it could be viewed as sedition.

At any rate, there is *not one single mention* of a Tribulation in 2 Thes 2.7--it is hardly a proof-text.

Unless you believe that the papacy is the Antichrist - which is such a cliche, the "he" therein is capitalized, which indicates that the Restrainer is presence of the Lord, specifically, the Holy Spirit along with the Body of Christ in which it dwells. According to the parable of the evil spirits (Matt. 12:43-45), human nature abhors a spiritual vacuum as much as mother nature abhors a physical vacuum, without the presence of the Holy Spirit, evil spirits are naturally sucked in. In the 20th century, evil spirits took over Germany, Italy, Russia, Spain, all previously Christian countries, highly advanced in art and science. When the Holy Spirit was rejected, the spirit of the Antichrist rose - on regional scale, and I'm afraid in the 21st century Biden's America is repeating that history, and that's just a precuror of the final global Antichrist.

The other verse, Rev 3.8 likewise says nothing about a Tribulation. Usually, a Pretribber will argue that the ancient church of Philadelphia was kept from the "hour of trial," which is assumed by Pretribbers to be the Reign of Antichrist. That is Rev 3.10. But this was an historical church going through an historical trial. Nothing in there about the Church being removed before tribulation under Antichrist.

So contrary to your statement, Pretribism is hardly biblical! There is nothing in the Scriptures that teach, explicitly, that the Church will be caught out of the world before the Reign of Antichrist. Nothing at all.

And this is why Christians had no Pretrib Theology up until John N. Darby came up with Dispensationalism in around 1830. It just isn't there. You might find some symbols to read your logical conclusions into, but the doctrine is not taught in the Bible. Period. That should make every Christian suspicious.

I don't know why you make a distinction between Satan's Wrath and God's Wrath? Are you saying that because Christians suffer Satan's Wrath during the Reign of Antichrist that they are not suffering "God's Wrath?" However, that is the argument Pretribbers most often make, that Christians must be Raptured out of the world before the rise of Antichrist because it is the time of "God's Wrath."

But if you're saying that the Reign of Antichrist is not to be confused with the time of "God's Wrath," then there is no argument left for Pretribism!

The difference is that Satan's wrath is NOT a unique end time event, it has always been a part of life throughout history, it's referring to the trials and tribulations in a general sense. God had put enmity between the Serpent's seeds and the Woman's seed, nonetheless. That's not God's wrath, God's not responsible for that, the ABSENCE of God is responsible for that, it's the definition of evil - not the necessary opposite side of good, but LACK of good.

In Abraham's bargain with God, God would tolerate an evil nation for the sake of as few as ten righteous people, all the evil people will just suffer the consequences of their own action; however, when the last ten righteous people are removed, then the "restrainer" is removed, God's judgement ensues. It's just a simple logic, not "pretribism", I hate these confusing terms.

 

[anetazo]

I respect other people's beliefs and opinions.
Ezekiel chapter 13 . God hates the fly away doctrine. Its false doctrine.
The rapture theory is a escape hatch for those who lack faith. They believe they wont go through antichrist 5 month tribulation.
Many churches will lose attendance if they taught sound doctrine. So the hirelings water down Gods word.
Jeremiah chapter 25 . Jesus is coming 7th trump, to put stop to hunting grounds of the shepherds.
The false brethren go with satan into the pit during the millennium.
Isaiah chapter 24 . Jesus will return near future and clean house. Those who listened to false preachers will be in Sheol. Its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. The millennium is time of teaching for spirituality dead. Revelation chapter 20. The rapture will get many people spot in sheol.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Right. For 1800 years the closest thing to a Pretrib Rapture was the general teaching about how we need to escape God's Wrath. Pretribbers define "God's Wrath" as the "Reign of Antichrist" with its accompanying 7 years of judgments. But nothing of the sort is even taught in the Scriptures. And it's just plain fact that until John N. Darby came along nobody--nobody saw a Pretrib Rapture in the Bible.

All born again Christians were judged in Christ. He bore our sins and God's wrath was poured on Him. We can see in the book of revelation that God will pour His wrath. Revelation 16 'Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” But Jesus took God's wrath and God's wrath is satisfied if you are a Christian, He will not pout His wrath on us.

Revelation 3 10 'Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ' Jesus will save His bride from wrath of God and Antichrist.

Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why are all the tribes of the Earth mourning, when Jesus comes back? If Christians are here when Jesus returns, then why is no one happy?

The book of revelation itself -
The 4th chapter begins like this ‘After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this. The Greek words for ‘after this’ μετά ταύτα (pronounced Meta Tauta) .

But after what? What was the theme of the first 3 chapters book of revelation? The Church, and only the Church of Jesus Christ. In Chapter 1 we are introduces to Lord Jesus who is walking around 7 golden lampstands which represents the 7 churches of chapter 2-3, 7 churches in Asia Minor which represent the whole church throughout the history up until Jesus takes His Church with Him.

Chapter 1-3 represent the age of the Church, the year of God’s favour (Isaiah 61, Luke 4). Let’s look at verses 17-19 of chapter 1. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are [(καὶ ἃ εἰσὶν – kai ha eisin). The word εἰσὶν is the present tense of the verb ‘to be’. The Church IS.] And then verse 19 continues ‘and the things that will happen after this (μετά ταύτα). When? After this, after the age of Church. Therefore I am convinced, rev. chapters 1-3 talk about the age of the Church, then rapture happens and then starts chapter 4 onwards. Also the language from revelation 4 changes to OT language. We have the temple again etc. etc.

Even the Christians in 2 Thessalonians 2 were worried that the day of God's wrath came and they were left behind, but Paul assures that this is not the case.

2 Thessalonians 'That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.”

“Shaken” (Greek saleuo), denotes great anxiety and pain. The Thessalonians were deeply troubled about this matter.

This term has been used of an earthquake (Acts 16:26), and a ship at anchor slipping its mooring in the midst of a heavy wind. Along with the word “disturbed,” it describes the state of agitation and alarm that had griped the church. They were greatly distressed because they had expected the Rapture, the gathering together to the Lord, to take place before the Day of the Lord.

They had expected to be taken to glory and heavenly rest, not left to persecution and divine wrath. But they had become confused by the persecution they were experiencing, thinking they may have been in the Day of the Lord.

This error had been reinforced by some messages to them claiming that they were indeed in the Day of the Lord. Paul noted the source of these as “spirit,” “message,” and letter.” A “spirit” would most likely refer to a false prophet claiming divine revelation as (in 1 John 4:1-3). A “message” would refer to a sermon or speech given, while a “letter” indicated a written report.

The powerful but harmful effect of this false information was gained by claiming it was from the Apostle Paul (“as if from us”). Whoever was telling them they were in the Day of the Lord, claimed that it came from Paul who heard it, preached it, and wrote it. Thus, their lie was given supposed apostolic sanction.

The result was shock, fear, and alarm. Obviously, they had expected the Rapture before the Day of the Lord. For if they had expected it after, they would have rejoiced because Christ’s coming was to be soon. Apostolic authenticity in this letter which corrects the error was important and accounts for Paul’s care to close the letter in his distinctive handwriting (3:7; Gal 6:11).

“As that the day of Christ is at hand” (literally “as though the day of Christ is present”): These people thought the day of the Lord had already begun.

The idea that the Day of the Lord had already come conflicted with what Paul had previously taught them about the Rapture. This error, which so upset the Thessalonians, is what Paul corrected (in verses 3-12). Where he showed that the day hadn’t come and couldn’t until certain realities were in place, most especially “the man of lawlessness” (verse 3).

This is the purpose of the letter. They had decided that His coming would be in the next few days or weeks, and they had been shaken in their spirit because of this. We do know that for each person there is no more than 100 years to wait. Because if they go the way of the grave, they die within 100 years.

This really is not speaking of that. This is the fact that they were expecting Him to come while they were alive, and were setting a time schedule on this. They were overly excited thinking the time was really soon. It is dangerous to set times.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

All born again Christians were judged in Christ. He bore our sins and God's wrath was poured on Him. We can see in the book of revelation that God will pour His wrath. Revelation 16 'Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” But Jesus took God's wrath and God's wrath is satisfied if you are a Christian, He will not pout His wrath on us.

Born again Christians will suffer for the name of Christ, that kind of unfair persecution is the norm throughout history, Jesus never promised to have us spared from that tribulation, quite the contrary he asked us to bear the cross and consider the cost before we make the decision to follow him. You can't have John 3:16 without Matthew 16:24. What we will be spared from is THE tribulation, specifically that seven bowl judgements that only target the earth dwellers who have taken the mark of the Beast, at that point we'll be six feet under, as I said. Any catastrophy before that is manufactured by Satan for the purpose to test our faith in Christ, he told us that all of those are the "beginning of sorrows" and not the end, the end is the COMPLETION of the church body, those who endure to the end will be saved.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Born again Christians will suffer for the name of Christ, that kind of unfair persecution is the norm throughout history, Jesus never promised to have us spared from that tribulation, quite the contrary he asked us to bear the cross and consider the cost before we make the decision to follow him. You can't have John 3:16 without Matthew 16:24. What we will be spared from is THE tribulation, specifically that seven bowl judgements that only target the earth dwellers who have taken the mark of the Beast, at that point we'll be six feet under, as I said. Any catastrophy before that is manufactured by Satan for the purpose to test our faith in Christ, he told us that all of those are the "beginning of sorrows" and not the end, the end is the COMPLETION of the church body, those who endure to the end will be saved.

I am not saying Christians will not have tribulations. Christians will suffer, they will be persecuted, but they will not go through the 7 year Great Tribulation and suffer God's wrath.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I am not saying Christians will not have tribulations. Christians will suffer, they will be persecuted, but they will not go through the 7 year Great Tribulation and suffer God's wrath.

That's why I'm raising concerns about the MESSAGING, not the message. Those personal tribulations are being conflated with THE end time tribulation, that's a false doctrine designed to lull the Laodiceans into spiritual sleep.

Also, the real "rapture" has two parts - DEATH and RESURRECTION. Death is pre-trib - "until He (the restraining Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way", 2 Thess. 2:7, this simply means the inevitability of passing away; resurrection is post-trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation ... then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven," Matthew 24:29-30, that's when we enter into eternity.

 

[Zao is life]

Pre-trib REMOVAL is definitely biblical (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:8), what matters is your understanding of it. There is a difference between the wrath of Satan upon the saints and the wrath of God upon the minions who've taken the mark of Satan. The most biblical explanation for this pre-trib removal is simply that we'll all be six feet under long before the final Antichrist is revealed, and in order for him to be revealed, we the restraining spiritual power must be gone. Death is not the end, but a new beginning, we just have to make peace with it.

What maters is our understanding of what tribulation refers to.

Who wrote the New Testament? It was not us - it was the apostles, and Luke - and none of them called the wrath of God that is prophesied to come upon the unbelieving world "the great tribulation". Great tribulation is only mentioned three times in the New Testament.

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

PERSECUTION, TRIBULATION, & GREAT TRIBULATION

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

First mention: The Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20) * Luke 21:23 mentioned below this:

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved.
But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

Third mention: Revelation 7:13-14: "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Second mention: Revelation 2:21: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

It does not matter what we call it, the apostles did not refer to the world's "tribulation" as "great tribulation" and the only two verses in the entire New Testament that use the word thlipsis (tribulation) in reference to something unbelievers are to experience, are Romans 2:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

The rest of the time the apostles and Luke are talking about tribulation as the experience of believers - and that includes "great tribulation".

The apostles and Luke always called what unbelievers will experience at the hand of God "wrath".

There is no such thing as a "pre-trib removal" written in the Bible written by the apostles and Luke:

Pre-trib REMOVAL is definitely biblical (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:8), what matters is your understanding of it. There is a difference between the wrath of Satan upon the saints and the wrath of God upon the minions who've taken the mark of Satan. The most biblical explanation for this pre-trib removal is simply that we'll all be six feet under long before the final Antichrist is revealed, and in order for him to be revealed, we the restraining spiritual power must be gone. Death is not the end, but a new beginning, we just have to make peace with it.

It does not matter what we believe and choose to ignore if what we believe is not what the apostle was communicating - the apostles and Luke - those who wrote the New Testament - did not call God's wrath or what the unbelieving world will experience at the hand of God "great tribulation".

Pre-trib REMOVAL is definitely biblical (2 Thess. 2:7, Rev. 3:8), what matters is your understanding of it. There is a difference between the wrath of Satan upon the saints and the wrath of God upon the minions who've taken the mark of Satan. The most biblical explanation for this pre-trib removal is simply that we'll all be six feet under long before the final Antichrist is revealed, and in order for him to be revealed, we the restraining spiritual power must be gone. Death is not the end, but a new beginning, we just have to make peace with it.

Again, It does not matter what we believe and choose to ignore if what we believe is not what the apostle was communicating:

The Modern King James Version has a very interesting translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst."

Let's see if we can see why the translator chose those words instead of the words chosen in other translations:

".. taken out of the way" vs. "..comes out of the midst":​

".. comes out of": Greek: ginomai: to cause to be (generate), i.e. (reflexively) to become, to come to pass or to come into being.

".. out of": Greek: ek or ex: from, or out of.

".. the midst": Greek: mesos: among, before, between, (the) midst (of)."

The following text is out of the Textus Receptus (1550/1894) from which the KJV is translated:

"το γαρ μυστηριον ηδη ενεργειται της ανομιας μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται"

("the for mystery already is working of lawlessness, only the restraining at present until out of (the) midst he come into being"). (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

The original Greek language that the verse is written in does not seem to be talking about one who is restraining being "taken out of the way", but rather, it seems to be telling us that the appearance of the man of sin is being restrained or held back until he (the man of sin) comes out of the midst of the lawlessness

- lawlessness which is already working.

Paul also associates all this with the time-of-the-end apostasy he is talking about (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already working (in the church), only being restrained at present, until the lawless one comes out of the midst of it,
and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming."

"And because lawlessness [anomia] will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold." (Matthew 24:12: the time of the end in the Olivet Discourse).

 

[BillCody]

You keep saying that the rapture was started by John N. Darby. But it didn't start with him. It started with Paul writing a letter to the church of the Thessalonians. And he stated that it is a mystery revealed now but it seems to be a mystery still to some.

If you only understood 2 Peter 3:1-18

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What maters is our understanding of what tribulation refers to.

Who wrote the New Testament? It was not us - it was the apostles, and Luke - and none of them called the wrath of God that is prophesied to come upon the unbelieving world "the great tribulation". Great tribulation is only mentioned three times in the New Testament.

I don't think so. At least the "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:13-14 couldn't be limited to THE great end time tribulation, that would exclude all previous generations of believers from that great multitude since they passed away before the Great Tribulation. If you and I kick the bucket prematurely, we would be excluded from that since we fail to "come out the the great tribulation." That seems to contradict the "fullness of the gentiles" schedule in Romans 11:25 and Rev. 6:11. All believers throughout history were to be added into that Great Multitude, which constitutes the full body of christ, In some translations, this verse says "great tribulations", referring to all the birth pains described in the Olivet Discourse, not just the end time reign of the Antichrist.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You keep saying that the rapture was started by John N. Darby. But it didn't start with him. It started with Paul writing a letter to the church of the Thessalonians. And he stated that it is a mystery revealed now but it seems to be a mystery still to some.

What I oppose is the false marketing of this doctrine, which is basically alien abduction with a christian label on it. That's deception from the devil and it has no basis from the OT. And just because Enoch and Elijah MIGHT have been "taken" doesn't mean we will be as well. I believe in life, death and resurrection, which should've been the core belief of every Christian, and the real rapture is just a part of it.

 

[RandyPNW]

All born again Christians were judged in Christ. He bore our sins and God's wrath was poured on Him. We can see in the book of revelation that God will pour His wrath. Revelation 16 'Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” But Jesus took God's wrath and God's wrath is satisfied if you are a Christian, He will not pout His wrath on us.

The point is this. We are agreed that Eternal Salvation removes us from the Wrath of God. But the "Wrath of God" is *not* defined as the time of Antichrist's Reign, nor even the time when Judgments are to be poured out upon Antichrist. People will live during the time God pours out His Wrath on the Antichrist, but they will not be the targets of God's Wrath.

How do I know this? It is because in the book of Revelation we read that Christians will be martyred by the Antichrist. They are there in the time of Antichrist's rule, resisting his rule and declaring the righteousness of Christ. They suffer the world conditions that exist while Antichrist is in power, but they are not being targeted by God.

Revelation 3 10 'Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. ' Jesus will save His bride from wrath of God and Antichrist.

There is no doubt that at times God spares the saints from trials that come upon the earth. But this particular trial happened in the days of the ancient Philadelphian church. It has nothing to do with the Church in the time of Antichrist. As I said above, the book of Revelation puts Christians in the time of Antichrist's rule. This is beyond dispute. Use of this passage is completely out of context.

Christians were also spared according to the Olivet Discourse. These were Jewish believers who Christ counseled to escape from the coming Wrath of God against Jerusalem. They were *not* the targets of God's Wrath. But neither were they able to escape the difficult times associated with that "Wrath." These believing Jews were rendered homeless along with all of the Jews at that time. Again, this is not an escape from Tribulation, but rather, help during troubled times.

Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why are all the tribes of the Earth mourning, when Jesus comes back? If Christians are here when Jesus returns, then why is no one happy?

Many Jews and many Christians will realize, at Christ's Coming, that they hadn't properly recognized the role Jesus had come to play during his earthly ministry. There will be repentance when Jesus Comes Again--either that or intense regret.

The book of revelation itself -
The 4th chapter begins like this ‘After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this. The Greek words for ‘after this’ μετά ταύτα (pronounced Meta Tauta) .

"After this" refers to the next vision the Apostle John is given. "After" he was given messages for the 7 churches of Asia he was given more visions. There is not a single word about this referring to the passing of the Church Age to the time of Antichrist's Reign! This is a complete abuse of language, and clearly the kind of "addition" that John was warned about. People are warned not to "add to" nor "subtract from" anything in the book of Revelation.

Even the Christians in 2 Thessalonians 2 were worried that the day of God's wrath came and they were left behind, but Paul assures that this is not the case.

This is an insinuation, but not what is said in 2 Thes 2. It is not said that this church thought they had been "left behind." Instead, they were concerned that they missed being a part of a "Kingdom Now" movement, much like the JWs, who in some respects believe they are bringing in God's Kingdom now.

This is really a false Christian claim that they *are* the Kingdom of God with special authority and powers. They felt they had the key to prosperity and victory over any and all circumstances, much like the "Faith Movement" today.

But Paul warned them, as the Apostle John did in 1 John, that there are still many Antichrists, even as the Antichrist himself will come. This age will continue to be trouble for non-Christian and Christian alike, until the final battle between Christ and Antichrist. That is the message of 2 Thes 2.

I'm sorry we can't agree on this. I go to a Pretrib church and have for most of my life. I try not to get too contentious on this. Nobody in my church, including the pastors, will even discuss this with me. But I must be true to my own conscience and calling.

 

[RandyPNW]

Unless you believe that the papacy is the Antichrist - which is such a cliche, the "he" therein is capitalized, which indicates that the Restrainer is presence of the Lord, specifically, the Holy Spirit along with the Body of Christ in which it dwells.

Capitalization occurs for Proper Nouns, and does not identify the entity so capitalized. At any rate, the original biblical language did *not* use capitalization in this way. It is purely interpretive for someone to use this in the way you do. And I'm not even sure the Bible translators meant this to refer to God.

If it was to be understood as a reference to God in the language itself the early Church Fathers would've seen this. But they didn't, and believed that the Restrainer was the Roman Government, which Paul wisely refused to identify in public writing.

According to the parable of the evil spirits (Matt. 12:43-45), human nature abhors a spiritual vacuum as much as mother nature abhors a physical vacuum, without the presence of the Holy Spirit, evil spirits are naturally sucked in. In the 20th century, evil spirits took over Germany, Italy, Russia, Spain, all previously Christian countries, highly advanced in art and science. When the Holy Spirit was rejected, the spirit of the Antichrist rose - on regional scale, and I'm afraid in the 21st century Biden's America is repeating that history, and that's just a precuror of the final global Antichrist.

What continues to "restrain" the rise of Antichrist is government that originated from the Roman Government, which is what government issuing out of European Civilization is. Even the US is the product of European Civilization and Government. And, I might add, American Government is very mixed with pagan ideas. For example, the commandment to "have no other gods" was changed to "tolerate all other gods."

Nevertheless, American Government was given the ability to resist division and Antichristianity for hundreds of years. Still, the Antichrist will come to our world, and American Government is getting more tolerant of it. We agree on the dangers of Biden's America.

The difference is that Satan's wrath is NOT a unique end time event, it has always been a part of life throughout history, it's referring to the trials and tribulations in a general sense. God had put enmity between the Serpent's seeds and the Woman's seed, nonetheless. That's not God's wrath, God's not responsible for that, the ABSENCE of God is responsible for that, it's the definition of evil - not the necessary opposite side of good, but LACK of good.

I agree. This war between God and Satan has characterized the entirety of human history. Satan has been sweating profusely, while God has been biding His time. He is in no hurry, but will carry out His plans effectively and completely.

In Abraham's bargain with God, God would tolerate an evil nation for the sake of as few as ten righteous people, all the evil people will just suffer the consequences of their own action; however, when the last ten righteous people are removed, then the "restrainer" is removed, God's judgement ensues. It's just a simple logic, not "pretribism", I hate these confusing terms.

There were no "10 people removed from Sodom"--just one family. The deliverance of Lot and Noah exemplified our deliverance from death itself--not necessarily from troubled times. Both Lot and Noah suffered difficulties throughout their lives. None of this has a thing to do with Pretribism. But we obviously do agree on some things. God bless.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

It is because in the book of Revelation we read that Christians will be martyred by the Antichrist.

These are the false Christians who get left behind, but they repent during the reign of Antichrist, who will persecute and kill them. Revelation 6 9 'When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[c] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.' We see the Martyrs were given white robes now. Why are they not wearing white robes already? Revelation 4 says this ' Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads'. The number 24 is symbolic and represents all the Christians. So why do the Martyrs get white robes later? Revelation 7 is a further prove of that “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.' So the martyrs under the throne are coming out of the great tribulation

nor even the time when Judgments are to be poured out upon Antichrist.

Revelation 15 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

But this particular trial happened in the days of the ancient Philadelphian church.

The seven churches represent all the churches until Christ comes. We can see all the seven churches present today also. I believe that revelations chapter 2&3 describe the Church age, then rapture happens, then chapters 4-20 is the 7 years after the rapture and we can see parallelly what goes in Heaven and on Earth. Yes this happened to the church in Philadelphia, but that church also spiritually represents churches who went through the persecution.

People will live during the time God pours out His Wrath on the Antichrist, but they will not be the targets of God's Wrath.

Revelation 16 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” 2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. - seems to me that people will also bear God's wrath.

I'm sorry we can't agree on this. I go to a Pretrib church and have for most of my life. I try not to get too contentious on this. Nobody in my church, including the pastors, will even discuss this with me. But I must be true to my own conscience and calling.

I am the opposite. I am the only one with pre-trib view in my church, everyone else that I spoke to about eschatology amillennialistic. Now why that is, I do not know. But the pastor was kind enough to invite me to his house for a discussion about this, and even though we disagree, God's name was glorified. As long as we love each other even in our disagreements is all that matter. But one thing we all agree on, that He is coming soon to take us home

 

[Blade]

Right. For 1800 years the closest thing to a Pretrib Rapture was the general teaching about how we need to escape God's Wrath. Pretribbers define "God's Wrath" as the "Reign of Antichrist" with its accompanying 7 years of judgments. But nothing of the sort is even taught in the Scriptures. And it's just plain fact that until John N. Darby came along nobody--nobody saw a Pretrib Rapture in the Bible.

This is not true. In 300-400AD a Hymn writer and preacher wrote about caught up happening before the great tribulation. Anyone can search and even see the scrolls and what he wrote. It was also talked about before 300-400ad it was written also in 1600 shall I go on? A man that has passed GF had a show on TBN where he showed those scrolls 300-400AD and showed what was written. Later he showed even more stuff written before 300-400ad. People like Perry Stone agree with him or not matter not but he also has shown this stuff as many others have over the years.

Paul said "we which remain". You can't twist that. He never said they which remain or those that remain.. not he said "we" The sweet sweet holy Spirit does not make mistakes. Now will Christ go against our will? No..so if a believer is not ready is not watching does not believe you think Christ will take them force them to go when they do not believe? For me there is no pre mid post since no one can show those verses. Now I was not promised tomorrow I can prepare but I was not promised it. So I am ready NOW! NOW is when Christ comes.

I pray I am found worthy to escape. We all have a free choice. Just be ready now and you will never miss Him. WHO does not want to always be ready always be watching how you live for HIM? Yeah.. some don't care some talk like the world "where is He? He said He was coming 2000+ years later no Jesus". Be ready now

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Capitalization occurs for Proper Nouns, and does not identify the entity so capitalized. At any rate, the original biblical language did *not* use capitalization in this way. It is purely interpretive for someone to use this in the way you do. And I'm not even sure the Bible translators meant this to refer to God.

If it was to be understood as a reference to God in the language itself the early Church Fathers would've seen this. But they didn't, and believed that the Restrainer was the Roman Government, which Paul wisely refused to identify in public writing.

What continues to "restrain" the rise of Antichrist is government that originated from the Roman Government, which is what government issuing out of European Civilization is. Even the US is the product of European Civilization and Government. And, I might add, American Government is very mixed with pagan ideas. For example, the commandment to "have no other gods" was changed to "tolerate all other gods."

Nevertheless, American Government was given the ability to resist division and Antichristianity for hundreds of years. Still, the Antichrist will come to our world, and American Government is getting more tolerant of it. We agree on the dangers of Biden's America.

I agree. This war between God and Satan has characterized the entirety of human history. Satan has been sweating profusely, while God has been biding His time. He is in no hurry, but will carry out His plans effectively and completely.

There were no "10 people removed from Sodom"--just one family. The deliverance of Lot and Noah exemplified our deliverance from death itself--not necessarily from troubled times. Both Lot and Noah suffered difficulties throughout their lives. None of this has a thing to do with Pretribism. But we obviously do agree on some things. God bless.

Why do you speak so highly of the Roman empire? You do know that we’re talking about the restrainer of the Antichrist, not the Antichrist himself, right? I’m glad that we agree on some things, but I really don’t get this.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

There were no "10 people removed from Sodom"--just one family. The deliverance of Lot and Noah exemplified our deliverance from death itself--not necessarily from troubled times. Both Lot and Noah suffered difficulties throughout their lives. None of this has a thing to do with Pretribism. But we obviously do agree on some things. God bless.

If there were merely 10 righteous people in Sodom, God wouldn't have nuked the city. 10 is the minumum quorum. And because there was not even 10, just the small family of Lot, God tolerated Sodom and Gomorrah no more, He took them out and supernaturally put an end on that wickedness.